Mindraker

Nerf Minions

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Nerf Minions

from Demigod Forums

I just want to start off by saying holy shit, I just finished possibly the 2 most frustrating demigod games in my life. Erebus maxing out minion upgrades, and sending them to attack towers, and even our citadel, which almost made us lose a game we completely dominated in kills, warscore, and upgrades. If there was more than 1 erebus on the other team using that "strategy", we would have lost. There is no viable counter, as the only way to prevent it is to kill Erebus, and he can sit in his base and send his minions to attack whatever, and they have so much HP that not even the best AOE in the game can take them out (Fire TB). There are 20 minions running around, all with 2000 plus HP, always being healed, that can't be taken out, and they can literally burn the citadel down in a minute... talk about cheese, and something that needs to be addressed immediately. It's game breaking, and I feel lucky to have won the 2 games I participated in where this strategy was used, they were extremely close calls.

Nerf it, reduce the max number of minions erebus can have, that might be the best solution.

demigod
143,936 views 69 replies
Reply #51 from Demigod Forums Top

I agree with the minion experience sentiment, summoned units in Warcraft 3 gave exp and you still saw plenty of water elementals and spirit wolves running around.  The amount would just need to be reasonably small so that minions wouldn't be a disadvantage.

Reply #52 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Shadow, reply 25

Krazikarl Erebus gets up to an 80% chance to convert to nightwalkers by a fairly early level.  The Erebus can easily kill 1 creep in the time that a UB kills 1 minion.  So Erebus can easily keep up with UB's kill rate with new minion spawns.
Really? I had no idea. Perhaps you could refresh my memory, what does Ooze do?

Reduce attack speed by 40% and does some DoT (which is more than overcome by Horn of Battle).  Since the most of the creeps have far less than half the HPs of the Erebus minions, the Erebus is still going to kill creeps at a higher rate than the UB kills minions.  Minions are also can have more armor too.

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Reply #53 from Demigod Forums Top

I agree with the minion experience sentiment, summoned units in Warcraft 3 gave exp and you still saw plenty of water elementals and spirit wolves running around.  The amount would just need to be reasonably small so that minions wouldn't be a disadvantage.

Dota too.

Reply #54 from Demigod Forums Top

Dota too.
The mechanic was a WC3 mechanic that they had no reason to change.

Reply #55 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Krazikarl, reply 2



Quoting Shadow,
reply 25

Krazikarl Erebus gets up to an 80% chance to convert to nightwalkers by a fairly early level.  The Erebus can easily kill 1 creep in the time that a UB kills 1 minion.  So Erebus can easily keep up with UB's kill rate with new minion spawns.
Really? I had no idea. Perhaps you could refresh my memory, what does Ooze do?


Reduce attack speed by 40% and does some DoT (which is more than overcome by Horn of Battle).  Since the most of the creeps have far less than half the HPs of the Erebus minions, the Erebus is still going to kill creeps at a higher rate than the UB kills minions.  Minions are also can have more armor too.

Uh. I'll stop trolling now because you're not getting it. My point was UB is plenty powerful against minions.

Reply #56 from Demigod Forums Top

The mechanic was a WC3 mechanic that they had no reason to change.

They could have set minions to give 1 exp and 1 gold if that was needed for balance.  It wasn't, quite the opposite.

Reply #57 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting InfiniteVengeance, reply 6
They could have set minions to give 1 exp and 1 gold if that was needed for balance.  It wasn't, quite the opposite.
Well personally I didn't like dota and I don't view it as a seperate game, which is what I was getting at.  If you're a big dota fan you're pobably going to disagree, but when I think of dota, tides of blood, etc. those are still just wc3 maps in my mind, not seperate games which merit distinction from wc3 on mechanics they didn't even change.

Reply #58 from Demigod Forums Top

I find it funny when people see one strategy they haven't seen before and lose to it they get all higgledly piggedly over it and call it OP. Believe me, Erebus minion builds are nothing new. Minion builds are nothing new.

Reply #59 from Demigod Forums Top

I find it funny when people see one strategy they haven't seen before and lose to it they get all higgledly piggedly over it and call it OP. Believe me, Erebus minion builds are nothing new. Minion builds are nothing new.
Don't be ridiculous.

Last patch minions behaved like reinforcements.  If you told them to attack a target, that target could move behind a tower, reinforcement wave, another DG, or whatever and the minions would switch targets.

Let's just hypothetically say that they 'fixed' fire TB's autoattack next patch, allowing him to move and shoot at the same time. By your logic anyone who complained about fire TB doing too much damage would be getting "higgledly piggedly" over it because fire TB is nothing new.

Minions recently changed dramatically, stop misleading people.

Reply #60 from Demigod Forums Top

Yay, DP. >:(

Reply #61 from Demigod Forums Top

My point was UB is plenty powerful against minions.
I've encountered a minion Erebus as UB once. I had an ooze centric build and it was no problem to survive 'the onslaught'. I don't think he had Horn of Battle active, that would be something to test. Anyway his full army of minions died and they cost me a bunch of health points but nowhere near enough to force me back.

What about Armor of Vengeance? Usually it's rather expensive for what it does but against a minion heavy build it might be just perfect.

Reply #62 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Obscenitor, reply 9

I find it funny when people see one strategy they haven't seen before and lose to it they get all higgledly piggedly over it and call it OP. Believe me, Erebus minion builds are nothing new. Minion builds are nothing new.Don't be ridiculous.
Last patch minions behaved like reinforcements.  If you told them to attack a target, that target could move behind a tower, reinforcement wave, another DG, or whatever and the minions would switch targets.

Let's just hypothetically say that they 'fixed' fire TB's autoattack next patch, allowing him to move and shoot at the same time. By your logic anyone who complained about fire TB doing too much damage would be getting "higgledly piggedly" over it because fire TB is nothing new.

Minions recently changed dramatically, stop misleading people.

You really think that alone made minions useless?

Reply #63 from Demigod Forums Top

You really think that alone made minions useless?
Previoulsy minions were literally unable to attack me as rook.  They would constantly peel off and attack my towers and reinforcements.  I would take negligible damage and now I take considerable damage.  

The patch brought a lot of minion bulids out of the woodworks and combined with the fact that everything will be complained about regardless of how fair it is it's no surprise that a proportionate amount of complaints rise as the usage of the build itself rises. 

Still, regardless of how fair or unfair they are it's a major change and minion balance is worthwhile discussion as people adjust.

Reply #64 from Demigod Forums Top

Minions recently changed dramatically, stop misleading people.

No, they didn't.

Reply #65 from Demigod Forums Top

Hey Obscenitor! We dont' have to play :( you were right all this time. I just stomp nubs.

You know the drill.

 

PlayerTeamEntityFavor PointsResult
WickedBear Forces of Light Unclean Beast 120 Won
char4561 Forces of Light Sedna 120 Won
sumochill Forces of Light Rook 75 Won
Obscenitor Forces of Darkness Rook 70 Lost
Sparkminator Forces of Darkness Unclean Beast 65 Lost
Rehcra Forces of Darkness Regulus 40 Lost

 

Hahahaaaaaaa Sorry Couldn't help myself.

 

Anyways, Minions aren't op from my current pov, horn is, but I still think they should give somthing for taken em out. It will promote more strategic use out of them with pro micro :)

Reply #66 from Demigod Forums Top

Alright wicked, you team up with rechra and sparkminator, I'll group with sumo and char and let's see how it turns out. :)

Reply #67 from Demigod Forums Top

Well personally I didn't like dota and I don't view it as a seperate game, which is what I was getting at.  If you're a big dota fan you're pobably going to disagree, but when I think of dota, tides of blood, etc. those are still just wc3 maps in my mind, not seperate games which merit distinction from wc3 on mechanics they didn't even change.

As someone who has played significant amounts of Dota and WC3 I can say absolutely that you are wrong, but if you haven't played either extensively you indeed may not appreciate the differences.

Reply #68 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Shadow, reply 14

Minions recently changed dramatically, stop misleading people.
No, they didn't.

Thank you.

Reply #69 from Demigod Forums Top

Furthermore, I don't agree that general's minions should give XP when killed. This would turn the minions into a liability, which negates the point of having minions as part of the general's abilities.

Not really. All this makes sure of is that you can't cheese minion swarms and auto attack. You have to actually do cost/benefit analysis when you use them. This would cause people to actually micro and manage their minions a great deal more, actually adding depth to the general class. There is no reason as I see it, that they should do nothing when they die. There should be a reward for killing minions, even if its small.

Why does my hero get expereince for killing minions of your citadel that are weaker than ones you summon yourself? If it defeated the purpose, you wouldn't want to ever upgrade your citadel.

 

A minion is something a general has to invest skill points in (gold for idols), costs mana to summon and needs work to use effectively. Allowing them to give XP would skew the favour too large against a minion general build. Why would I want to summon things (that I've already invested into) that benefits the other team when they are killed? Not to mention that they are quite easy to kill too. Minions are all a minion-centric general has, the pay off for countering the minions themselves is that it renders the general ineffective.

As for the second point, the answer is because the minions from the citadel are autonomous, numerous and free of charge on the player's part. Besides that, it's simply the game's mechanic. Right now we still want to upgrade our citadel because it's cost efficient. The minion's strength and numbers from the upgrades balance out their cost in gold and liability in bounty. Are general's minions so effective? If so, why aren't minion generals more popular? This whole discussion makes me suspect that it's more the case of how the community is still inexperienced in dealing with good minion users than with the imbalance of minions themselves.