Homesick for dictatorship

It's almost as if childhood memories inaccurately represent the pros and cons of a complex economic system and thus are a poor barometer with which to make comparisons!

But the dude outright admits he's better off today, but not as happy. Is this somehow verboten?

It is insofar dangerous as people conveniently forget to mention just what sort of regime the DDR was. The critique doesn't really touch the economic system (the GDR was bankrupt btw) but the political one - where you could be thrown into jail for wanting to travel to the west or refusing to report/spy about your neighbors made you look suspicious. The StaSi controlled everything, they had a one party dicatorship, and it was a through and through unjust system.

All that doesn't mean that you couldn't have a great and happy childhood, but that is what people are mixing together.

Yes, and that's certainly monstrous, but you can look at just about any nation and discover ways in which they are sickening little monsters. Even my home nation of Canada is sickening in its treatment of natives among many other things.

The article itself concedes that terrible things did happen, and I don't think anyone denies that. What I believe the fellow is going for is lamenting the loss of how it felt rather than how it was. To me its the same as an upper class American talking about how great their nation is, while ignoring the multitude of injustices within the nation itself. The ideal of communism is comradery and working together, and it's very reasonable to see why one would miss such an important element from their childhood. Equal wages and rights are not something to be ashamed of desiring.

It's the same as older Republicans who miss the days of Reagan.

I was trying to come up with a good argument.. but it is difficult to reason with people who use feelings as the basis for their argument (not referring to you but the guys in the article) and whose feelings might be distorted by glorifying memories of childhood bliss.

The circumstances in Germany were rather special after WW2, having two states who both claimed to be the legitimate successor of the 3rd Reich - and the cold war with the Warshaw pact and the Sowjet Union controlling the east and the western allies the rest.

The ideal of communism is unachievable, that is why its also called a Utopia.. because everybody was equal but some were just more equal than others, for example if you were a high party apparatschik.

It is certainly worth pondering why they memory of the GDR is viewed through pink glasses.

You know, to each their own. While there are issues with the stability and survivability of communism, as shown by history - why shouldn't they view what they view? Is it suddenly evil to believe differently? What about what the people desire?

Seems silly that we force democracy, etc because we believe it is the right way - when sometimes, people just prefer other ways. Like Russia for example

It is not automatically evil.

The people think back and only remember that they all had jobs and that there was no insecurity because the government literally controlled everything and provided everything. All the rest that goes alont with a socialist dictatorship is blended out and painted to look harmless. They trivialize the oppressive nature of the regime, which is their right of course, but which is also dangerous.. republicans would think this sort of regime their worst neightmare and already liken the Democrats with that.

You have to believe it is the right way, otherwise everything somebody does because it is their way becomes OK, Like Saddam killing his own people and gassing the Kurds, it was his way and it is right to be like that..

Ill never understand Russians - but they never had anything resembling a society where not one form or other of elite ruled. I know this old lady - mother of a friend of my parents - who is from baltic aristocratic descent. They belonged to the elite, her father was a diplomat for the czar. She never understood what was wrong with the whole system and she really really hates the communists. She wanted to throw me out of the house once because she thought I was "red" - lol.

Back then it was the aristocracy under the czar, then came the communists after 1917 and now it is the former aparatchiks, KGB and new rich that are the elite and rule everything. Regular people (and most are peasants) never had anything to say, not once in history.

Another example is germany during the Nazi's. People actually agreed with what happened. >_> To each their own I guess.

Honestly what I found most disturbing was the op with "If it was up to me I'd repatriate the lot of them to WhiteRussia". Since when was voicing an opinion worth a deportation? All it does is prove the guys point - that things aren't better on this side.

Yes, my young friend, they all agreed, and not only the Germans. The rest of western europe didn't really mind the idea of a strong Germany leading from the top too much and thought oh well, the war will be over quickly and germany will have won and then a new chapter would start. But the airwar over england took longer than expected, the whole war took way longer than expected and it went differently.

The important thing is to learn from your past experiences, and to embrace the system that is the best out of bad options - Democracy. It actually took quite a while for germans to become democrats. Before 1914 they had a constitutional monarchy, the Weimarer Republic had a democratic constitution with way too many loopholes that allwed the President to assume autocratic powers in case of an emergency, way too many political parties that disabled the parliament from being effective, and then Hitler came and turned it into a one party dictatorship. They had no positive experience with Democracy prior to 1949. It took a while until they trusted this new idea, but now it took hold and it is the best way for a country to be goverened. People love the idea of a good King, one who rules the lands just and impartial - but that is just an ideal that is never really achievable. To each their own - the people of federal republic of Germany chose to identfy with democracy after the benefits became evident, but it took decades. The people in the former communist countries have to learn to trust the system first and to learn the ropes.

Germany has its problems with racism and everything, but it is constantly trying to be better. You should come and visit sometimes, it is a great place.

I was ranting - people downplay the terrorizing aspects of the GDR. They glorify it (Ostalgie) - so let them live in a country that is all that they miss so dearly - then they'll remember quickly why everybody was happy in 1990.  Ask leauki - he grew in Berlin, he probably experienced it first hand. They wanted to leave, it was the people from the GDR that started a revolution of sorts because they wanted things to change. Saying the GDR was not such a bad place is akin to saying that Iraq under Saddam was not so bad after all.. why, it is their oppinion and they can have it, but its a very questionable oppinion.

I saw east berlin in 1991 - it was dreadful, everything was dirty and murky and downtrodden. The godmother of my sister had moved to Köpenick so I saw what her neighborhood looked like. She lived next to the river Dahme which was nice, but eastberlin was not so nice back then. Now, it is pretty much the same westernized standard everywhere.

It may be a questionable opinion to have, but you were still essentially calling for deportation of all said opinion bearers. Yes, it was a rant, but there are people who would seriously give that opinion if asked. Getting upset like that does nothing to discredit them, and everything to unintentionally link oneself with genuinely hateful elements of society.

Times like these you distance yourself, and let them have their (wrong) opinion... or see what they're arguing about, see if any of their ideas have merit, and incorporate them if so.

Repatriation - tried and true method of Stalin..who knows, they might even feel special (just kidding)

It was intended more as a thought experiment than actually proposing to kick people out. They can have their oppinion, it is the job of the political public to make their oppinion meaningless by supporting a different majority.

Politically speaking, there is a similar debate in Germany wether or not to ban the NPD, the nationalistic party of Germany (Neonazis). There is a split oppinion about it: 1) You ban them and they go underground, and it will be that much harder to controll and know what they are up to

2)It would be undemocrratic to ban a political party, the political process has to discredit them, not the hammer of the government

I live far away from the former GDR states so I rarely meet people who are thinking like that myself, but for me they discredit themselves by uttering things like that anyway. It is the ongoing german political issue right now, what do you do with public figures who had a Stasi or SED or otherwise questionable past in the GDR and did not say anything about it? Can they be trusted or not? If say a judge was discovered to have made secret verdicts that were not at all based on the law but on the will of the SED or the Sowjets, could that judge be trusted to be able to make impartial and just decisions? Fun times, I tell ya that.

Not even close.

And there are some today in Iraq that yearn for the "Saddam" days. There probably will be more 20 years from now as memories of the cruelty melt away.

For the younger posters. it's easy to sit in the comfort of your home and "miss" something you never or barely lived through. Most children's lives are their happiest moments, because they had little to worry about. For the older crowd, if a government pay check equal to what everyone else gets sounds good to you, move to the US, that's the direction it's heading to. Try this experiment, travel to a place like Belarus, take only the amount of money that the average person there would earn and stay awhile. See if you don't have a new found respect for what you have.

Everything looks greener on the other side. Folk that want to live in periods past, well that's called fantasizing. Early settlers in the US had a simple life, little government breathing down their backs. That doesn't mean I want to wipe my @ss with a corn cob like they had to do. People forget the difficulties with the passage of time, it's human nature. The trick is to realize the phenomenon exists.

You cannot have a complex society without a sort of government. What exactly that government should or shouldn't do has been the debated for a long long time - it all comes down to the question what sort of society a nation and its people should be, and oppinions about that diverge greatly.

That is exactly what the debate between the Republicans and Democrats is about, and it will be going on even after Obama has left office (and the US won't ever be a socialized dictatorship where the government controlls everything and the rich have to pay for the lazy poor).

Government should pave the roads, defend the nation, and keep me and mine safe in my home; other than that, it should stay out of the way.

One thing, I suppose, dictatorships have over free states is the inability of the people to think for themselves. That's not really how I want to communicate that thought, but it'll do.

East Germany had been under Communist control for what? Two generations? And before them, their parents and grandparents had lived in eras of both monarchy, not the freest of governments, and the Nazis. 'Nuff said.That's generations of people who didn't really have to think or do for themselves, and that was how they thought it was supposed to be.

When the the Wall came down, suddenly the government was no longer there to do their thinking and decision-making for them. That's like throwing a man who can't swim into the deep end of a pool; either you sink and drown or you learn to swim. Some succeeded and learned to swim, others drowned and complain, yearning for the old days when they had fewer roads in life to choose from, because those are the hard decisions.

Sometimes it's a lot easier to live "happily" when you have fewer options in your life, especially without actually realizing it.

GDR existed for 41 years, from 1948-1989. But even before that, germany was never what youd'd call a modern democracy, I think i mentioned it above (constitutional monarchy to 1st attempt of democracy that failed to dictatorship to what we have now, a socialdemocratic republic). The people in the GDR needed to develop the ability to understand and appreciate freedom and capitalism. I once read an article about northkorean refugees that make it to South korea. It is a really perileous journey and they their lifes doing it, and they are hopelessly lost once they arrive in SK because that society is ruthlessly capitalistic and has a super strong workethic and competition. There are a lot of Korean music students in the conservatoriums in Germany and all they do all day and all night long is practise, they are like robots. They are really good.. you can imagine what happens if someone from Northkorea makes it into that sort of society, they don`t even know what is going on around them. If those two countries were to reunifiy - talk about culture shock.

I like the Flat Tax; it seems to work well in Russia, one of the few things that does so, it seems. Voluntary military service works pretty well in America; quotas are hard to meet, yes, but that's a given. It gives impetus to things like enticements and bonuses.

I never said there should be no government; authority and law are a necessity in any viable society. Anarchy is no alternative to totalitarianism. "Safe" is a self-explanatory term; you need a police force, a fire dept. and a military. That's about it.

We make it difficult; things are always more simple than we make them out to be. That's why bgovernment is always so damned hard to work with.

I wonder, given their comparison to "robots" how musically gifted some of the students are. Technical ability is but one aspect of talent. Giving the music depth, flavor, texture and soul is another thing altogether.

erm. There are really gifted Korean musicians, but that is different from individual to individual as it is everywhere. I didn't want to imply that all they can do is be brilliant technicalwise. They just have a different attitude towards practicing and studying. The example was used as a foil for North Korea, but you do have a point. some are playing like robots, especially pianists.

IMO Russia is not exactly a good example, they have an elite that rules over the rest )always had), widespread alcoholism and unemployment, and if you do have a job it doesn't pay alot. And my personal peeve, they all still love father Stalin.

I disagree.  It may not be imaginable to those who are use to the safety of big government, but it is achievable.  It does require a mindset change.  one that says you can suceed of fail, but if you want to win it all you have to risk a lot.

How would you describe the necessary mindset that is needed?

I stand by the statement that a complex society with a corresponding form of government is not possible without a complex system of rules and regulations. I don't know of any high culture that didn't have such a system, either.

You are very perseptive! 

That is the easy example to show and hold up as being a way of doing it.  But it is not only American, as you can find it in many "non-Nation State" nations (see Leauki for the definition of Nation State).

In the movie Stripes, the character played by Bill Murray was telling the other recruits of the nature of an American.  in it, he said that we are the wretched refuse of the world.  Kicked out of every decent nation on the planet.  He was not really that far off.

As I said, it takes a different mind set.  A mind set that says I will succeed!  Knowing that you can fail.  That is most recently epitomized by the American West, but it is also epitomized by the very settling of this nation (and others). 

Society is not that complex.  At the basic level, it is just people co-existing with other people.  But it is when a majority think that comfort is more important that liberty that government grows beyond the basic concept to become controlling.  It may be a natural progression of any government (and history seems to bear that out).  But the fact that it is not a constant state of government indicates it is also possible.

But doesn't coexisting with other people require a certain level of organization? And there is no group that I know of that can live without it. Organization on a small level like a city is complicated. I wrote a paper on silver mining in Freiburg during the 12th -14th century and everything that has to do with a lot of money is always coupled with political power, so the relationships between the ruling aristocracy, money lenders, church parishes, city council etc pp was fairly complex. Who had the right to mine silver, to stamp coins, to use the lead (the silver was part of the leadore and had to be refined). Every artisan had his or her guild with their own rules as well - it was never just people co existing. If anything, life was almost more regulated and controlled back then than it is today. I wish it was possible to simply co exist, but my parents have some nasty neighbors that are living proof that it is a very hard thing to do, even when you're willing.

Yes, but we only disagree on the level.  I agree that under the feudal system there was more control (under most of the Monarchial systems there are).  Mainly due to the outside threats, but also due to the lack of self determination.  Serfs forfeited their liberty for security - and that problem exists today.  Less government means a greater chance of failure for the individual (history is populated by the successes, not the failures).

Many (but not most) want the chance to succeed (or fail).  But too many are afraid of it.  Fear breeds increased government.  But today it is not so much the fear from outside, but the fear of failing.

It's unfortunate that this is still applicable in the modern US.  (Replace Serfs with citizens)

~AJ