JohnJames

25 enforcers vs 30 destra or kodiaks? (updated 7/01/09) replays added

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25 enforcers vs 30 destra or kodiaks? (updated 7/01/09) replays added

from Sins Forums

Who do you think wins in the HC department?

 

enforcers take up 12 supply vs 10 for the other 2

 

so 25 vs 30 should be fair right?

 

Replay

 

(updated 6/26/09)

Using Entrenchment 1.03

 
                               Build time
              Damage   Slow/Normal/Fast               Cost
destra       19.0      58 /  53  / 48 sec.       $525 100m 90c
kodiak       18.0      60 /  55  / 50 sec.       $500 100m 70c
Enforcer     20.0      72 /  65  / 60 sec.       $625 150m 110c

      
300 supply calculations
             Damage   total build time on fast       Cost
destra(30)      570      1440 sec.                $15750 3000m 2700c
kodiak(30)      540      1500 sec.                $15000 3000m 2100c
Enforcer(25)   500      1500 sec.                $15625 3750m 2750c

V = Vasari
A = Advent
T = Tec

lvl 3    = All upgrades up to lvl 3 (damage, shields, armor, hp, combat abilities)
full ups = All combat upgrades possible (tec speed and vas slow ability not used)

                   Ships survived
V v A no ups            10 A
V v A lvl 3                15 A   <-- This is just wrong
V v A full ups           16 A   <-- So is this

V v T no ups             8  T
V v T lvl 3                17 T   <-- Very broken (due to early upgrades)
V v T full ups            9  T

A v T no ups           4  T 
A v T lvl 3               8  T
A v T full ups          12 A   <-- Drastic Change

Basically Vas HC suck. They dont win any battles. 25 Enforcers cost the same as 30 HC
for the other 2 races yet they lose badly to their counter part. with equal upgrades
they lose more.

With no or little upgrades Tec HC rules

Advent HC will dominate if fully upgraded.  Advent has the only cap ability to increase damage

Devs please rebalance. 

 

 

Vas HC is tied with tec in terms as total build time.  Cost wise they are 3875 more then advent HC and 8625 more then TEC HC If you do the standard 500 creds per 100 metal/crystal. So the test should be 22.4 VS 30 against advent and 18.6 vs 30 against TEc if you want to do cost vs cost for vas.  For tec vs advent it would 30 vs 27.5.  I cant imagine how skewed and screwed the test would be.  Also  Vas hc has the least amount of total damage.

So using again the standard 500 creds per metal/crystal HC cost

Vas:       1925

Advent: 1475

Tec:      1350

Vas Hc take up 20% fleet supply, cost 30.5% more then advent and 42.6% then TEC HC.

strategy
267,769 views 113 replies
Reply #101 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz, reply 22

So, now..  What are the ways that you guys see as the actual problem here?  This I believe is the problem.  We have not diagnosed exactly what the problem is.  Is the problem with the Enforcer its abilities?  Its DPS?  Its health?  Before creating a proper solution, we must figure out which is causing the problem?

 

Reply #102 from Sins Forums Top

The problem with enforcers may not be a single thing, which may be a reason a single solution isn't the answer (or can't be agreed upon). When most of the proposed fixes seem logical, perhaps the best solution is a vote. I've added the enforcer issue to the poll. Blair is watching.

:cylon:

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/356646

Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #103 from Sins Forums Top

I think the problem with the enforcer is not that its weapons have low cost efficiency. The problem is that they decided to give it hugely expensice weapon upgrades AND make it cost extra fleet supply on top of giving it weak weapons. That is clearly going overboard.

Boosting its DPS to 22 would be good imo. It would have more cost effective guns, but won't be OP due to extra fleet supply cost. Moving the Wave cannon tech tree down a level would also help. A small boost in each of these areas would be best. Giving the enforcer weapons that have low cost efficiency AND poor logistic cost efficiency is ludicrous.

Reply #104 from Sins Forums Top

id say bring its weapon upgrades down to be on par with TEC and Advent upgs. seems fair to give it 22 dps as well. if im paying more for my ship i may as well have the same upgrades as you.

Reply #105 from Sins Forums Top

I'd actually support giving the Enforcer 25 DPS AND even an extra armor point (on par with the Kodiak). Alternatively, 22 DPS, but phase missiles instead of wave. The Vasari need something that they are geniunely powerful at. I would also support actually undoing the nerf for the call the Returning Armada.

 

It would give us a hell of a lot more reason to play Vasari - that's for sure.

Reply #106 from Sins Forums Top

That is a very big buff you are suggesting.  Perhaps new ships in Diplomacy will use wave cannons and thus give people more of a purpose to using them.  I want it to have wave cannons but the DPS should be the highest of the HC's.

Reply #107 from Sins Forums Top

Agreed.

 

But the Vasari are too weak right now. This would largely negate the "synery" advantage the Advent have and the little Illuminator + Repulse advantage. The Vasari would have their own OP stuff.

 

Now all we need is a good TEC OP ...

 

Maybe something like super economy will do.

Reply #108 from Sins Forums Top

The truly sad thing is that pretty much all Vasari ships are supposed to be the most potent pound for pound over any other ship (hence the higher supply and resource costs)... yet they typically get trounced.

So much for having smaller more elite fleets of ancient badass tyrannical aliens >:( .

-Itharus

Reply #109 from Sins Forums Top

There is one thing that I belive people are not taking into acount when dealing with the cost of Vasari ships and their supply costs are the Vasari upgrades on the empire tree. The Vasari have an upgrade named enhance phase transmitions I belive. The upgrade gives an extra 10% ish supply. (I can not pull the numbers of the top of my head). Also all Vasari ships and sturctures are affeced by the Slave labor upgrade, which decreases credit cost. If you add up these factors then I belive that the combat would be much more even.

Reply #110 from Sins Forums Top

Except those techs aren't exactly free themselves. Plus it can take some time to get up to the Phasic Transmissions tech.

 

:fox:

Reply #111 from Sins Forums Top

AND other factions aren't exactly all naked when it comes to helpful research as well.

Reply #112 from Sins Forums Top

Bump.

Has anyone seen how this works out post-patch?

I play almost exclusively vasari, and for a while I had a glitch happening that when I upgraded the last level of wave that enforcers would stop firing and would drift around... which is a pretty expensive meat shield.

Since the patch, that has been fixed for me, and I've been beating up on some poor people. But I dont know if thats because my bug was fixed, or because of the changes in entrenchment 1.04?

As for the artillery idea. I love it. I actually like it for all races, but it would especially be nice for Vasari since our anti-structure waepon is the expensive and slow Orky. whereas I have to deal with starfish and torpedos. A stron unique until would be nice. It really would bring back the fun of the "mean spirited elite aliens."

Reply #113 from Sins Forums Top

At least the fully upgraded match should ve 29 Vasari vs 30 Advent or Tech, because you're just adding all tech which could be useful at the very end game. The first two matches should remain 25/30, though.