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Unclean Beast: Spit vs Ooze

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Unclean Beast: Spit vs Ooze

from Demigod Forums

First off, I will not state whether either skill/build is better, because they are both situational and have there pros and cons, which I will state later. This is merely a comparision of the two skills and the builds that accompany them.

 

Spit

  • Cast Time: 0.3 seconds
  • Cooldown: 7 seconds
  • Range: 15 yards
  • Mana Cost: 500/650/800/950
  • Damage: 50/100/150/150 initial damage + 450/800/1150/1500 damage over 10 seconds

               With Putrid Flow: + 500 AoE damage over 5 seconds

  • DPS: 45/80/115/150 over 10 seconds + 50/100/150/10 initial damage

               With Putrid Flow: + 100 DPS over 5 seconds

Spit Build

  • Pros

              1) Kill Potential: With a greater range, speed, and damage output a spit UB will have a much easier time getting kills.

              2) Lane Pushing: Spit is a great weapon against buildings in addition to enemy DG. While you won't be able to push as effectively as a Rook, you can still get the job done.

              3) Intimidation: People are often very afraid of spit, and will try to run when it hits them. This is when you hunt down and kill them with AA or a second spit.

              4) Misjudgement: It can be very hard to tell exactly how much damage is coming from spit, and how much is coming from UB's AA. As such your opponent can't be sure that they could still take you on even if they can disable your spit until they actually try, which can be a fatal error.

  • Cons

             1) Squishy: Despite the fact that it is easier for you to get kills, it is also easier for you to be killed, as you will(presumably) not be stacking as much +health and health regen as an ooze UB. Even if you win the fight, you will probably have to go back to the health crystal to heal.

             2) Counters: Spit has about 6 counters, including but not limited to: Oak's Shield, Sedna's Heal, QoT's Bramble Shield, Erebus' Mist, Symbol of Purity, and plain health stacking. 

             3) Mana: Spit is a fairly mana intensive skill, and you won't be able to use it more than twice without a +mana item. This problem is compounded if/when you decide to get Foul Grasp.

 

Ooze

  • Cast Time: Instant
  • Cooldown: 1 second
  • Range: Unconfirmed AoE(6 yards?)
  • Mana Cost: None
  • DPS: 35/70/105/140
  • Lost HPS: 20/30/40/50
  • Attack Speed Reduction(percentage): 10/20/30/40

Ooze Build

  • Pros

              1) Survivability: With the combination of health, armor, and hps you have a lot of staying power, making it extremely difficult for enemies to kill you. Turning off ooze to regain health after a fight through hps can quickly get you back to fighting condition. It is unlikely that you will have to return to your base except to buy new items.

              2) Mana: The only skill a ooze build will pick up that costs mana is Foul Grasp for the interrupt. You will almost never have to worry about running out of mana to use it, since Foul Grasp will only be used to interrupt an annoying skill, stop a teleport scroll, etc.

              3) Team Support: Ooze is an AoE ability, causing damage to all enemies in the immediate area as well as reducing their attack speed. In a fight between 2 DGs on each side, ooze will save both your life and your teammate's.

  • Cons

              1) Health Loss: One of the most obvious problems with ooze is the health cost. An ooze build has to continously upgrade its +hps items in order to keep up with the loss of health. If you don't start getting kills soon after the game starts to afford the items needed to counteract ooze you're screwed.

              2) Range: Another obvious problem is the complete lack of range. You will lose kills that you could have gotten with spit. If your opponent is fast enough to run away from you, even with diseased claws, killing him will be frustrating to say the least.

              3) Lane Pushing: An ooze UB is the worst pusher in the game until mid-game at the earliest, when you have stacked enough armor and hps to destroy a tower and take almost no damage. This adds to the range problem, as you can't take out a tower early-game to give yourself more space to kill your target without help from an ally.

 

Well that's it, thanks for reading. I apologize if anything in here is too messy, I'll probably clean it up and add to it later. If you see a mistake or disagree with a point I made feel free to point it out.

              

125,910 views 63 replies
Reply #51 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Milskidasith, reply 23

Without passives, you won't be killing anybody smart enough to run away.

Why not? I mean, that blanket statement can't be your entire argument.

Reply #52 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Zechnophobe, reply 1

Quoting Milskidasith, reply 23
Without passives, you won't be killing anybody smart enough to run away.
Why not? I mean, that blanket statement can't be your entire argument.

And "Spit does more DPS" can't be your entire argument, but that's what it boils down to, doesn't it? It's simple, but true: Almost every character in the game will have enough passive speed boosts or speed debuffs to run away from an UB with no passives. Let's see:

UB: Obvious.

TB: Ice form slows, fire form speeds up.

Reg: Slows, massive range to run away if the encounter isn't favorable.

Rook: Ok, you can gank him if you can outdamage him. Who can't, exactly?

Oak: Surge of faith, Pentience.

Sedna: Natural speed buffs, heals negate out of range damage from spit (at higher levels, anyway).

QoT: Speed debuff (Rarely used), shield to run away.

Erebus: Same natural speed as you, bite, batswarm.

So everybody except QoT and Rook can beat you out while an UB with passives can probably catch them (unless they stack HP). So essentially, yes, anybody who knows when to run can escape you, while against an Ooze UB they have to rely on you being too weak to tank the towers.

 

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Reply #53 from Demigod Forums Top

So you are suggesting that without inner beast people will be too fast for me, and they'll run before I can kill them?

 

Two main points here:

  1. If the enemies greatest advantage, is that they can run away after I beat the tar out of them, I can live with that, so long as I am generally the one doing the beating.
  2. I get 1 point in diseased claws, which is more effective than 1 point in inner beast, meaning Until at least level 5 I can keep up with people just fine.

I do not understand how 'early game' it is 'terribad' when it does significantly greater dps via spit, than the ooze player does, and can engage without being at melee.  Maybe your definition of early game is different, so I'll put down my description:

  • Early = level 1 to 4 or 5.
  • Mid = level 6 to 10
  • Late = level 11+

Or, instead of lumping things together, you could just state a level range you had intended.  Obviously at level 2, having both ooze and spit means you have the upper hand.  At level 3 (I'm not sure exactly what ooze only gets, but I get diseased claws) I'm pretty sure I still have the advantage, since I'll be getting the same 'passives' you will most likely.  Level 4 I have a profound 800 damage spit I can nail people with, and you have level 2 ooze.  This is probably the most different point of our build, since I won't get rank 2 ooze until level 6.

Lastly, just based on the games I've played, and I have played at least a few, that the comment that hybrid is weak early on simply doesn't hold up. I'm not even sure how you can say that.

Reply #54 from Demigod Forums Top

eh, this argument has gone into filibuster phase from what i can tell. is either one of you really gonna concede a point now or are you just bored and doing this for amusement?

 

for what its worth, Milskidoo is more or less right about the GINORMOUS difference between 1 pt in Diseased Claws and the full package of 3 in Inner Beast and 3 in Diseased Claws. 

 

1 point is easily sufficient to buy you enough time in range to gank. if you're build is for ganking (which is what the hybrid build is for) it works fine. but they can escape from it relatively easily. whereas its basically impossible to shake a full IB+DC beast once he's on you in melee range. your options are fight to the death (bad choice, he's got more health than you and Ooze fucks up your auto-attack), drag him to towers and hope he can't tank you and towers at the same time (works pretty well, depending on how much Armor stat the beast has), or hope your reinforcements get their in time so you can 2v1 him. 

 

 

 

 

Reply #55 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting transitive, reply 4
its basically impossible to shake a full IB+DC beast once he's on you in melee range. your options are fight to the death (bad choice, he's got more health than you and Ooze fucks up your auto-attack), drag him to towers and hope he can't tank you and towers at the same time (works pretty well, depending on how much Armor stat the beast has), or hope your reinforcements get their in time so you can 2v1 him.
 

Actually, if you buy a warp item you can escape him pretty handily, I've found.

Reply #56 from Demigod Forums Top

sure, i guess so. 

 

Cloak of Night is the best choice for this i guess. generals only though. 

 

Warpstone is the cheapest item that might work, but its basically crap. not sure its good enough, even the warp effect (believe it or not has a short charge up...sucks)

 

i guess the only other option left is Elven Cloak, but that costs $$$. still, would definitely work great between the dodge, speed boost, and warp, you can escape basically anything with that thing. 

Reply #57 from Demigod Forums Top

Not saying 3x Inner beast and 3x diseased claws is anywhere near as good. We were talking about 'terribad' hybrid builds in the early game, and I asked him to back it up.

Reply #58 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Zechnophobe, reply 7
Not saying 3x Inner beast and 3x diseased claws is anywhere near as good. We were talking about 'terribad' hybrid builds in the early game, and I asked him to back it up.

Because having a bit over two thirds the HP of an ooze beast at the start and very limited damage from spit aren't good enough reasons to say it is worse than pure ooze?

Reply #59 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Milskidasith, reply 8



Quoting Zechnophobe,
reply 7
Not saying 3x Inner beast and 3x diseased claws is anywhere near as good. We were talking about 'terribad' hybrid builds in the early game, and I asked him to back it up.


Because having a bit over two thirds the HP of an ooze beast at the start and very limited damage from spit aren't good enough reasons to say it is worse than pure ooze?

Everything else makes sense but this doesn't. From experience spit builds really shines in the early level, level 1-5. So saying hybrid build is "terribad" is mystifying. I'll concede if you say hybrid is not as good mid-game (level 10-15) where most games tend to end, so that makes ooze better, I'll bite. But if you say hybrid is terribad at level 1-5, I am enormously sceptical.

Reply #60 from Demigod Forums Top

anything with points in Spit at levels 1, 4, and 7 has good early game. the big hump is at level 5 when you start to hit MAJOR mana management issues when Spit and Foul Grasp both come into play. there are a few solutions to the problem though. mana potions. Vlemish Faceguard. Trips to the crystal. etc. however, the Ooze beast just doesn't have to worry about the mana thing at all. the tradeoff of course is that its extremely hard for pure ooze to get kills during the early game. it has traded DG killing power for lane staying power. 

Reply #61 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting transitive, reply 10
anything with points in Spit at levels 1, 4, and 7 has good early game. the big hump is at level 5 when you start to hit MAJOR mana management issues when Spit and Foul Grasp both come into play. there are a few solutions to the problem though. mana potions. Vlemish Faceguard. Trips to the crystal. etc. however, the Ooze beast just doesn't have to worry about the mana thing at all. the tradeoff of course is that its extremely hard for pure ooze to get kills during the early game. it has traded DG killing power for lane staying power. 

Spit II and II are the most potent, still early in game and the damage is really high for the mana you pay.

Reply #62 from Demigod Forums Top

Yeah, my personal tradeoff, as I listed, is Blade of the Serpent.  It is obviously less sturdy than a blood of the fallen based DG, but pretty much takes care of all your mana problems.  Spoozing someone, and thenhitting the blade will refill your mana completely, probably enough so that when you get the second spit it fills back up again.

I would say level 5 is about the only time I feel the Ooze build has greater staying power, at least compared to my own build. I still don't have ooze level 2 yet, which means I have a little bit less dps in melee (ignoring spit) and don't have an additional 10% attack speed debuff going.

Reply #63 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Zechnophobe, reply 12
Yeah, my personal tradeoff, as I listed, is Blade of the Serpent.  It is obviously less sturdy than a blood of the fallen based DG, but pretty much takes care of all your mana problems.  Spoozing someone, and thenhitting the blade will refill your mana completely, probably enough so that when you get the second spit it fills back up again.

I would say level 5 is about the only time I feel the Ooze build has greater staying power, at least compared to my own build. I still don't have ooze level 2 yet, which means I have a little bit less dps in melee (ignoring spit) and don't have an additional 10% attack speed debuff going.

For me, with my limited play time, like 5-7 was pretty bad on mana, and 1-4 I was too squishy to take advantage of my extra mana (and 1-3, BotS didn't make up for the mana costs of spit, either.). So I still maintain it's useful lategame, although I can see it being more useful endgame.

Off topic: stat tracking is still shit. :(