Phase Stabilizers and Allies

it makes sense to me, the challenge of supporting an allie shouldnt be getting your ships there before it over.

well your allies don't have the technology to do that do they?  I mean they would literally have to have vasari engines, which they don't if they are not vasari, so actually, logically, no it doens't make sense for them to use phase stabalizers.

unless you think of phase stabilisers like a stargate, where they basically create a wormhole between the two points.

i mean, it even looks like that physically

alternatively, for some weird reason, considering what the structure looks like, it could simply be an advanced targeting structure that gives very precise co-ordinates for the jumping ships to use, then it does not matter what engines you use

lastly, whatever the structure does/however it does it, it shouldnt and wouldnt have bearing which ships can use it. i mean, each factions repair bays work on allies ships, same goes for anti-matter recharger and nano-weapons jammer, plus starbase abilities, so, why shouldnt the phase stabiliser work as well?

plus, if you are allies, wouldnt the vasari 'give' the tech to the TEC?

then again, why would the vasari or advent, or TEC, ally with anyone who wasnt their own race (respectively)

No, this should not happen.

If TEC ships could jump through Vasari phase stabs, then Vasari should be able to build ships for half price when 'TEC researches Industrial Juggernaut.

This is a lost cause.

Phase stabilizer is the unique feature of Vasari. Everyone has repair bays or stuff like that, but only Vasari can jump from one of the star system to the other in one flight. You should not be able to hand that over to your allies.

no... because thats something present only in TEC structures/cultures whatever

its like SB abilities affect allies, and weapons jammers whatever wont target allies... so why shouldnt the phase stabiliser work too?

i dont think it has anything to do with the engines, it 'tightens' phase space between two stabilisers so ships can travel between. its to do with phase space not the engines

also, i think it would bring some more meaning into allying with other empires. if you ally with the vasari you also get to use their phase stabilisation tech. if there were some other unique structures for the other empires that could benefit allies, it would be good. maybe something for the next x-pack

It doesn't matter what sounds reasonable technologically, this is not a real world.
This is in its heart a competitive video game featuring 3 different races with different strengths and abilities. Each one has unique characteristics and even though som minor gadgets may work on allies as they do on your own, phase stabs should not.

Imagine: there is a 5v5 game and team A has 3 TEC and 2 Advent (or, in fact, any number of TEC and Advent players mixed). The other team may build up chokes, starbases, whatever. Now, if team A was 2 TEC 2 Advent 1 Vasari, the game would be totally different and upside down. Everyone would feed the Vasari so that they buildup phase stabs and Kosturas and invasions throughout the whole star system would be raging without any need for chokepoints.
The whole Entrenchment expansion would be totally obsolete.
Whole teams would start quitting if their Vasari buddies were killed.

That would be totally fouled up.

Period.

so make it that the kostura cannon effects dont apply to allies? (i.e. the temp phase stabiliser)

for that matter, i dont know if the deliverance engine culture bonuses affect allies either. if they do, there is precedent, so why doesnt kostura, and if not well, maybe it should be looked at

besides, as it stands, if you do have a 3 way team like that, you can use a novalith (or two) to nuke a planet so the enemy cant control it, then use a deliverance engine (or two) to give friendly culture bonuses, and a kostura (or two) to freeze ships and structures in the area, then send the entire vasari players fleet supply in to bleach the planet while your TEC and Advent buddies defend the Vasari players planets for him... i know that sounds pretty straight forward, but as it stands, a team with a vasari player can already jump in behind enemy lines, take out a choke point from behind all the mines and defenses etc. let in his buddies and entrenchment is circumvented regardless

btw, i was argueing the point of TEC engines arent compatible with Vasari Phase tech. so we were arguing from a lore point of view, not a balance or gameplay point of view.

also, not all of us play competitively. if you want that, go talk to CenturionJixra, im sure he'd love another crusader for his obnoxious (his words) campaign to get more people playing online. i like fun. its why i play video games, not for the challenge of playing against people (not that thats a bad thing, i play lan with my friends all the time). that said, (and this is an idea for the next X-pack) i think allies should be able to aid each other more effectively, other than just adding more ships to an offensive, repairing ships far from home and maybe feeding (btw AI dont do this)

i dont see why each race shouldnt have some sort of high-end tech/structure that can aid other races. perhaps the Advent have a structure that boosts shield strength on other ships and TEC have deployable factories that act like starbases but can build and deploy ships like crazy, idn, its up to the Devs, but as long as its balanced (like you said, each race having its own unique strength) it would be a nice thing to consider.

i mean, right now, why would you ally yourself with an AI TEC? if it was a human, you would ally for a feed (lol, KFC just popped into my head =P) and maybe for missile barrage, but other than that? why would you ally with AI Advent? if it was a human you could maybe use their culture for bonuses, maybe use their battle ball strategy to shield your ships as they come in to a hostile GW. but when you are playing with AI? meh, i usually just ally with them depending on where they are geographically. and if i play teams i just try and make one of each for a varied set of enemies.... but outside of competetive matches (which, ill state again, not all of us like) there is no reason not to allow tech to apply to allies.

and, if you are REALLY worried about bypassing chokepoint worlds etc, lets say that effect does not apply to allies, but normal stabilisers between worlds within the vasari players empire is allowed. or we could always make it a switch for competitive matches, like: Allow superweapon effects to affect allies? Yes/No?

I agree with this point. But I don't agree with your entire argument.

Phase stabilization is a passive ability for phase gates. If other passive abilities can affect allied units, shouldn't this one be the same? Anti-matter rechargers, the advent unique tactical structure, works on allies, but that doesn't make the advent OP.

I don't think it would change the game as much as you think N3rull. I don't see phase gates enough in online play (about as much as I see AM-rechargers), and I highly doubt that if this were changed, everyone would suddenly abuse the crap out of them. It wouldn't be some super OP weapon that would make Sbs obsolete and vasari the best race ever. I mean you don't see this kind of thing being abused when an entire team is Vasari do you?

If this were changed, the only thing I see happening is more people using them late game, and maybe even see more use of the Marauder, one of the worst caps in the game. I'm all for that.

As it is though, it's hard to say what could happen. But I say don't knock it til you try it. Maybe the devs should try this out for a patch and see how it goes.

You answered your question. From the game's lore point of view all the races are bitter enemies, so it doesn't make sense for them to have some sort of high-end tech/structure that can aid other races.
That is particularly true for the Vasari, who enslave, oppress and subjugate every race they encounter.

As for:

It is because stab-jumping is the part of Vasari balance. Vasari are a a race just as good as any other and their balance has their enhanced phase-jumping ability counted in.
It is obvious that TEC counters Vasari phase-leaping with their insane capability of producing stuff. A big team of Vasari are in fact using only this race's tech, so jumping your friends is no big deal.
Now, if a TEC player could use their advantage of making a HUGE fleet in split second and then be able to send it all ANYWHERE.... it changes the game for TEC completely.

yet a TEC player can still ally with a vasari player and so forth? and as was said before, certain structures, like the repair bay, anti-matter recharger etc etc affect allies as well. hell, they trade with each other. so what, you can do this but not the other? theoretically, my TEC fleet can jump all the way to  my vasari ally's home planet and sit there until the war timer expires, but i cant use his phase gates to cross his empire quickly and help him?

pick which one you want? i agree, from a lore point of view, they should not even have relations. from a lore point of view, the Diplomacy expansion the devs are working on now is stupid, because honestly, they should just be fighting each other.pirates should not exist because they would be wiped out by any one of the empires, Vasari and Advent especially. however, lore can be changed and guided, Elites in Halo changed sides and allied with humans in the end, why shouldnt the vasari ally with advent and TEC?

except they wont be able to send their fleet anywhere, only where there are phase gates which means this advantage can only be used defensively, not aggresively. now, you are going to say what about the kostura and that cap ship i forget the name of? (though you may remember the name...) and i will say, fine, so we dont allow the kostura effect etc to apply to allies.

wait, so you are saying that vasari team A can use Vasari team B's phase gates? doesnt this bring up the same problem as letting the TEC or Advent use your kostura effect? it just one more fleet. like you said, each has its strengths, but they are all basically the same and one race is no better than the others. unfortunately, at the end of the day, unless you are a computer yourself and can micro everything by the millisecond, at the end of the day it comes down to numbers. two vasari fleets are better than one, and a TEC and a Vasari fleet are not that much better....

I see your logic, but your forgetting a few things I think. TEC are the strongest economists (their principal strength) and can build fleets fast. But they can also lend some of that power to allies through feeding. So in that sense having a good TEC player on your team is a definite plus.

Now look at advent--> superior antimatter abilities and shields. AM rechargers work for allies and I believe most of their buffing abilities also work for allies, including guardian shield projection (i could be wrong though). Advent also have superior culture, and while the main benefits this gives to Advent players isn't shared amongst their allies, some of the lesser effects such as the inability to colonize a planet under influence of that culture, can be applied to allies.

Vasari strengths are firepower and mobility. While they CAN offer the overall benefits of their superior firepower to allies (simply by joining a battle) they can't really offer their mobility benefits to others (with the exception of Marauders gravity ability, but no one uses marauders much anyway).

Though I doubt ICO will ever allow allied phase stabilization, I don't think that if they did, it would throw the game balance out the window.

Ok so basically Rezonator wants to develop his own new soase lore and talk about it while you Deceiver just don't believe that having huge TEC fleet (supported by their huge economy and all bunch of production enhancing gadgets) jump around th galaxy like a Vasari would hurt the gameplay.

I've said it all. Rezonator wants to dream on, very well. Deceiver decides to think otherwise, very well then too.

Have a nice day.

PS. No, it's still not gonna happen lol.

im sorry, first off, stop being an ass, doesnt help your cause

second, how am i making my own new lore? quote exactly where i fantasised new lore? i simpy stated what is happening in the game currently, that is, that completely opposed empires are, for some reason, allying with each other, and that certain structures already aid allies. i did say lore can change. i didnt say to what, i never invented new lore, you ass. i said things can be changed to make it it, because, honestly, atm, the lore is broken. like i said, why are these 3 empires even capable of allying with each other? the lore forbids it, yet it happens.

so, aside from all the lore crap, you are worried that a large TEC fleet jumping around the map is a problem. but its not, like i said and you so convieniently ignored, said TEC fleet can only jump where there are phase gates. so, the TEC can build fleets quickly... so what? tell me, exactly, what does the ability to quickly build a fleet have to do with said fleet jumping around inside an allies empire? i mean, there are so many reasons why it is entirely irrelevant! you havent stated ONE example as to WHY it would hurt gameplay, you just close your eyes and ears, and stick to your guns. you know what mate? you lost, that tends to happen when you just say, oh, it wont happen cause itll hurt the gameplay, and dont give actual reasons!

you know, i really hate these people who ignore the arguements they cant rebut, and just keep going on their ignorant and arrogant way.

i hate getting angry on forums, and snapping at people, but far out, way to be an immature little prick, having to go out of your way to get the last word and insult two people along the way, when you havent even given a dececnt arguement!

so, you go have a nice day, and i hope you grow up sometime soon

True, but one can always dream.

Keep thinking you have any sort of right Rezonator. You're the kind of man who is settled into his fantasy and won't accept logic until he shouts allah akbar and then it is too late.

Say, we have 15 planets of a TEC player on the left and 15 of his Vasari ally on the right. The TEC builds lolmao amounts of factories on their border. Can the TEC defend the Vasari's other flank? Yes, one jump to his nearest system and one jump to the other end of the Vasari's territory. Can the Vasari defend the TEC's other flank? No, they have to jump all the way through TEC's territory.

The TEC can not only amass shitloads of cash, they can build things cheaper and faster than Vasari. Vasari catch up with TEC's production capabilities with their own phase stabilizer network. That's how it works - TEC build fast and lots anywhere they need (in THEIR territory), while the Vasari move their existing units where they are needed. Giving TEC the same stuff would break it all up.
TEC would be able to make an instant invasion from any of his Vasari ally's world and then quickly build a new fleet elsewhere in his own. The Vasari can invade through any of his worlds alright, but he can't jump into TEC territory or build as fast.

Vasari players would start being given priority for the planets on the frontline, simply because they would plant stabilizers there and the whole alliance would keep jumping around.

Right now, when player A is on the other side of the system from his teammates, he can't aid any of them nor be aided. When you're cut off, that's how it is. A single Vasari EGG that would rush through the system and colonize a planet somewhere between this lonely guy's own planets would drastically change it - whole armadas of the whole 5-player team would start jumping around freely. All sense of frontline and fortification would be lost.

I don't know if you just lack imagination or strategical thinking, or maybe it is just that you want to hop around with your Marza using your friend's tech.
Truth is: A team without a Vasari player would be IMPAIRED compared to one that has a Vasari with an established stab network.
There is nothing that could compare to travelling whole fleets freely and quickly around the whole alliance's system (which Vasari would give their team if your suggestion passed) that any other race could give the Vasari in return.
Nothing.
Can your repair bays and hoshikos heal my ships? Awesome. My repair bays can as well and my Overseers can heal your stuff 15 times faster.
Can you recharge my shields? Awesome. Only that my shields aren't 80% of my total survivability anyway.
Novalith? Just blows the enemy planet. How is that helping me when I'm fighting his fleet and stuff? I can fire the Kostura at the planet you're assaulting and turn off the enemy ships and SB for 15 seconds and the rest of his structures for 3 minutes and taking off some hit points of all of his stuff. How is that NOT helping your assault??
Deliverance Engine? kek.

Seriously, if you do not perceive just how much your suggestion would destabilize the current status quo (Vasari = mobility, TEC = production, Advent = tough regenerating battleballs), then your most brilliant tactical maneuvers must have happened as you played Quake deathmatch with bots.

Ass.

 

PS. I like arguing on forums. Be my guest.

id be careful who you quote "Allah Akbar" to, especially if you are ignorant of the entire meaning.

also, up until this post, you had failed to give any 'logic' preferring to look down your nose at everyone else and claim it was a bad idea and the reasons are just too stupid to mention

in this situation yes, i concede the point that its a bit of an issue (Allah Akbar anyone?). no more of an issue than the ability to shoot your superweapon at your enemies homeworld, jump in a fleet and wipe it out, but still a bit of a problem. however, now, your TEC ally has all his fleet supply 30 planets away from his other flank. yes, its only 16 with Vas phase stabilisers, but still, once the TEC player (or even an Advent player but lets stick to TEC) has moved his ships to the other side of the vasari empire, another enemy empire can move his fleet and attack the (almost) undefended borderworlds of the TEC player. so in the end it balances out. im guessing you are now going to argue that the TEC can quickly build more ships to counter the invasion of their empire. except that the TEC cant quickly replace leveled cap ships and cant build ships (even very slowly) without fleet supply, and if all your current fleet supply is on the other side of 2 empires, you're kinda screwed. on a side note, i believe one of the vasari cap ships and the Starbase both have some sort of ability to act as moving phase stabilisers? so why not drop a few Vasari SB's at the TEC's worlds of importance (borderworlds etc) and there, imbalanced manouverability solved, and even aside from the phase gate ability, 2 SB's in a grav well are definitly better than one, and even without that ability id still be dropping SB's in my allies worlds. if the vasari SB's etc cant do that then just forget i said anything. i dont play vasari so im not that sure.

now, what does the TEC have to offer the vasari for quick travel through the vasari empire... well, other than a finger-lickin' good feed, theres that little thing of being able to jump in reinforcements rather quickly... if it was a human player i think he would appreciate it in itself. Given though, from a purely technical point of view, the TEC dont have much to offer, which is why in a previous post i suggested some new structure for the TEC and Advent that would give some sort of tangible, instant or near instant effect to allies. but thats beside the point, we are arguing what 'is'.

okay, so they build cheaper and faster, so what? are you pushing the suicide thing again? TEC player suicides all his ships at an enemy planet outside the vasari empire and then just builds again? im not sure about other players, but i can be sure a great many dont attempt that strategy. Why? same reason as the 15 planet empires. while you are suiciding or rebuilding, another empire comes in and drills your flank

i agree, though, that individually, TEC has fast, cheap production while Vasari has higher manouverability. (what do Advent have btw? it just occured to me... maybe more survivability? idn...) anyway, point is, if its balanced properly (and the game should be balanced properly already) then 2 teams with Vasari and TEC players would indeed have more capabilities and strategic options, but so would the enemy. and for the same reason you have to think twice before jumping your fleet 16 planets away, so too does the enemy, because whatever you can do, he can do too. thats called balance. you said somewhere that teams without a vasari player would already be disadvantaged. not true. if instead of a Vasari player, we have another TEC player, then my team has just gained another set of the massive econ and production abilities you keep harping on about. so, sure, i cant jump my fleet 15 planets away for a sneak attack... but i cant throw 2-3 empires worth of fleet supply at you and no matter how fast you can get your ships there, im still going to bleach your planets.

like i said above, i believe the vasari SB and one of its caps provide a mobile phase gate, problem solved, if not, well, thats not an issue, because alliances are not symmetrical things. like i said before, the TEC get higher manouverability right? and the Vasari get an extra fleet to defend with. thats the trade off. its not supposed to be all-encompasing.

so what? be the same token couldnt TEC players be considered for frontline planets for the reason that they dont need to move ships around, they just build new ones? also, im not certain, but show me 5 maps that caters for that sort of setup, with TEC and/or Advent players occupying the core with a Vasari outer ring for defense? and when that team starts expanding, how would the planets be divided? and like i said before, sure, so whole teams fortify with Vasari phase stabilisers at the front lines. it balances out.

and... the kostura cannon isnt the same thing... how? yes, allied fleets cant jump in with a vasari fleet... but jumping in all your fleet supply with your allies defending your planets and then flanking the enemy and cutting his empire in half... all sense of frontlines and fortification is already gone. The Kostura Cannon ability already destroyed it. i mean, im not sure what you mean. you said in that same paragraph is a lone Egg broke the lines and captured an uncolonised planet behind enemy lines... when in the game is this? early? late? i dont know where Phase Gate tech is on the tree, but im sure Kostura is pretty high up there... if the Vasari player already has phase gates, and your allies already have armardas, why is there going to be a convieniently uncolonised and undefended/undeveloped world sitting behind enemy lines waiting for your lone egg to attack? that situation you described is just so false, flawed, and unreasistic, i dont know where to start dismantling it, or if i even should bother... though if you want i will (just im late for dinner... considering im cooking, its a bad thing...)

not true. like i said above, if instead of Vasari manouverability, i get another TEC horde, i havent lost anything, sure i cant move as fast, but i can still amass large fleets quickly and beat you over the head with if before you can really respond. heck, a good strategist would send 50% of one empires fleet supply to a vasari border world to distract the enemy team. when the reinforcements arrive, you send the remaining 2 and a half empires worth of fleet supplies to take out his flanks, and, like you said, he has to jump however many worlds back without the aid of vasari phase tech. or, if im right and vasari SB's have phase gate abilities, then focus fire on the SB, but off reinforcements, like a real commander would do, and have a time of it. good luck countering that. if you let yourself be flanked because you were too cocky with your high manouverability, then you deserve to lose

again, not true, like i said, aside from a finger-lickin' good feed, the added defense alone would be worth it to most players. again, im not sure what the advent bring to the table in terms of production etc, but the TEC alone, however much fleet supply able to defend almost any planet quickly, that'd be worth it to me. and, really, thats what alliances do. i give you the ability to get around quickly, you just have to use the ability to cover my ass if the need arises (and, really, in this case, its just about 1 of 2 things you could possibly use it for, just quick attack and defense)

i dont know the numbers, but if thats true, then sure... except, like you said, i can build 10 hosikos in the time it takes you to build 3 overseers, not to mention how much cheaper it is for me (arbitrary numbers, dont quote me) and, if im not wrong, i can build them before you because its a lower end tech for TEC. so sure, you are more effective, but im the one saving your ass until you can tech up to get overseers. your own TEC arguement just shot you in the foot there mate.

yeah, like you were saying, if you can drop a planet and get in behind enemy lines and build phase gates to bring in reinforcements, then yay you. you cant do that with a Kostura. you have to kostura the planet, jump in a fleet of seige frigs with a coloniser, drop the planet and hope his defenses dont take you out, then you have to defend the planet long enough to develop and bring in reinforcements... its alot easier with a few novaliths, thats the point of an alliance, why not use their strengths to help the war effort? and the deliverance engine... sure not that great, but it would definitly help if they shot the targeted planet, wiped out enemy culture and let you colonise it asap without having to wait longer than necessary. everything helps. honestly, i think a team of at least one TEC, Advent and Vasari player would be much more... versatile at least, than a team of only TEC or only Vasari. sure, a whole bunch of TEC fleet supply can bludgeon the enemy like the barbarians did to rome, but if you can outsmart them by jumping in behind their lines, then their numbers count for nothing

on a side note, one other advantage the Vasari have is phase space monitoring, they can see every ship in phase space anywhere at any given point in time (once researched) you are worried about a surprise attack? if you see alot of ships jumping from point A directly to point Z without going through B and C etc, and Z happens to be your front door... i think you can expect to be invaded sometime soon. given, you may not have time to watch every phase space transition all the time, but, 1) its in your empire window, so its not that hard, and 2) a simple change to give an audio cue when large fleets are jumping via gates would fix the problem

...thats crap mate... really... ive never actually played Quake Deathmatch... though i think the Advent would have to have something else, idn, maybe it is survivability... meh, but as for my brilliant tactics, just read the above, and those arent even my best ones, im keeping those to wipe the floor with you. i really dont think it would destabilise the current quid pro quo, because like ive been saying all post, everything would compliment each other, and it would also counteract each other. why do TEC have to be weary of attacking a TEC player? because you dont know where his lvl 6 marza will pop up and shoot you in the ass. or when youve destroyed his major fleet and wipe out a few planets, only to run into a brand new fleet (home team advantage, you know) why do Vasari have to be wary of attacking other Vasari? because you never know if the fleet you thought you had tied up on the other side of the galaxy is gonna come cannonballing in and wipe you out. the only thing that changes with these suggestions is that now allies can contribute, and a galactic alliance really is an alliance, not just some people who trade and arent attacking each other and sometimes fight battles together. it would make team choosing even more important, because you either have one of each and be very versatile, or you spam one type or 2 and 1 and go for brute strength or brute versatility respectively. honestly, i dont think it destabilises the status quo at all, but then i have as much chance of convincing you than you have of convincing me

Jerk.

As do i, i find empasioned debate about a common interest refreshing. i dont, however, like being made angry and having to resort to swearing and belittling, in order to break through some ignoramous' shield of greater-than-thou.

Still... some people just have it coming to them

Yes you do.

You know pretty little about this game, thinking the game is balanced and that your tactics wipe a wet floor if anything, if you admit not to know much about Vasari or Advent anyway.
Marza hugger.

Doesn't make sense. Taking a world somewhere deep inside enemy territory is a waste of time. You will be overrun.
And Kostura DOES help in clearing his defenses, phase stabilization put aside. You don't seem to know that it does anything other than planting a phase gate.

That's the problem of both TEC and Advent. They can't jump around the map. They can be surprised by a rear attack. Vasari will not - even if the enemy destroys the phase gate somewhere in your far backyard, you can still jump to a phase gate one planet further.
Good luck countering that (as in - destroying all phase gates in enemy territory up to three phase lanes away instantly)

Not true. A single Vasari jumping behind enemy lines in a 3v3 game doesn't really break it. The enemy can quickly amass ungodly fleets to counter the invaders as they finish off the first planet. You see, in this case, the invasion force of one Vasari player can only have one-player worth of fleet supply included and the tech of only Vasari. This means that this force, yes it is behind enemy lines now, but it won't do enough damage until it gets swarmed. He is deep inside enemy territory , rite?
If your suggestion passed, TEC could jump in hoshikos, a Marza, the Advent could jump  Progenitors and f...k knows what else. Right now, it is Vasari invasion only. With such a combined force jumping all over the map, it would be a totally different story.

Why drop anything? Orkulus -> phase stabilizer -> kek.
I don't need his defenses down at all.

Problem here is: everyone is gonna be feeding Vasari to have them plant their gates. Without the gates a flanking attack is a huge threat. With the gates - it is not.
Have you ever fought 6 unfair AIs all at one time and all trying to crucify you at once? With TEC or Advent, not resorting to Marza spamming? Good luck. I did it with Vasari because I could move my fleet from one end of my empire to another with ease. Even if the TEC can build fast, he can build only as much - he can't field as many ships as three or six other players. He can put up a fight like any other player in one place, but he can't teleport to the other end of the galaxy in the next second. The Vasari can't recover as fast, their ships are expensive, but they can move their fleet effectively, anywhere. You have never seen phase gates in action, I think.

 

ok I'm tired, if you're up for some more, I'll post tomorrow. If I find more time to waste on discussing things of balance with someone who believes the game is balanced, who doesn't even know where on the tech tree the phase stabilization is nor what ship has it as an ability nor what strength Advent have....

 

I only leave you this to consider:
Take a TEC&Advent team in any proportion. That team has to spread its fleets all over the frontline. If it's attacked on one end, they can not move their whole rest of the fleet to aid. They are basically a classic WW2 army that has to take every wall head on.
Take a team of 1 Vasari plus anything else and give the allies the ability you want them to have. Now, wherever the enemy attack, you can counter him in 30 seconds, with EVERYTHING the whole team has. He attacks elsewhere? Fine - you can throw ANY number of units at him in another 40 seconds. While the enemy separate their fleets into small forces to attack multiple targets or defend multiple planets with laughable efficiency, you can counter half of those forces with 2 to 1 advantage, quickly eliminate them and then wipe the rest. Fighting 3 even fights is in fact a worse idea than raping two enemy forces at a time and letting the third waste its time on some structures you're gonna rebuild in 50 seconds later, when you've dealt with the other forces and move your whole fleet at the last one.
A single Vasari player in a team gives the whole alliance the ability to redeploy their forces to any point of their territory in less than a minute. This is a HUGE advantage. Why do you think it takes 5 minutes to jump a fleet 3 gravwells away? If you think you can hit a Vasari with established phase gate network in the back, you are wrong. They will be back to kick you outta there in 40 seconds, unless you destroy the stabilizer - in that case, the Vasari have to make one more jump, which adds another 30 seconds. You won't win the game in 1min10sec. He's gonna f...k you with everything he has after that time, kick you out of your little invasion and then move in to kill your undefended worlds.

I believe you may have killed zounds of noobs with your super-balanced Marza lvl6 as you believe it to be, but you surely haven't seen too many phase stabilizers around. You know why? Cause it's a costly tech and few maps are big enough to actually make sense for one player in a team to be able to jump his fleet around them at will. However, if this was be given to ALL his allies, it would be a huge advantage. Right now, it is one-player only and very costly at that. But that price would mean nothing if it affected the whole team.

Open a skirmish game, play as Vasari and see how it works. Then we can talk about whether having all your allies jump around at will with your gate network is in any sense "BALANCED".

Yes, i play TEC, so what? i personally prefer the style of TEC. it suits my playing style. i have played a few games as vasari and advent, and i have definitly played against them and allied with them. but regardless, what does where the phase gate land in the tech tree REALLY matter?

i do know what the kostura does, i never said it didnt help clearing defenses. we are talking about phase gates (though you brought up novaliths for some reason...) i wasnt talking about its other abilities because they dont apply in this context. this is the second point so far you've made that is largely irrelevant, and is aimed at belittling and insulting me. if you have to resort to that, you are a sad little person hiding behind your computer screen. i hope you feel big.

you also said it doesnt make sense to capture a world within enemy territory... well, what exactly did you mean when you said this:

to me, that sounds like you are breaking through the lines, taking out a suitable planet, and then intend to use it to bring in re-inforcements? im assuming the vasari already has phase gates, otherwise it would be useless to use this strategy, and by that stage i dont think there will be uncolonised planets just sitting there for the taking... honestly, i dont think it would be a bad idea. if you can tie up enough forces with defending central worlds, then it makes breaking through the front lines much easier.

im sorry? you just said that the strength of the TEC is production capability? you said that i can put my TEC fleet on the other side of the Vasari empire to defend his ass, and then if i get attacked i can just build another fleet quickly? your own arguement just defeated you. well done. you also said the vasari have fewer ships, so they make up for it with higher manouverability. agreed, but the more places i attack, the more places you have to defend, all the time with fewer and fewer ships. and another thing, if you are busy taking out a world thats one or god forbid two worlds away from a phase gate, you are screwed. you have to get out of my GW first, and im sure its going to have 1 or 2 phase lane destabilisers, so you have already lost ships, then you have to get over to where im or an ally is attacking you, in which case the player you were attacking first can now counter attack into the planet you just left undefended! but once again, SO WHAT? really, how is this an arguement related to the topic AT ALL?

no, it wouldnt break it, but it would certainly cause havoc. Team A has 2 strategies, assuming we are playing on a decently large map. on a larger map, the vasari can jump in to the center or the absolute arse end of an enemy empire. one would assume all their fleets are stationed on the front lines to defend against invasions, so the vasari fleet has carte blanche to do whatever it feels like until some one can muster the forces to defeat them. in relation to this you said the enemy could "quickly amass ungodly fleets to counter the invaders". this is not true. first off, the TEC and Vasari are the only ones who can 'amass ungodly fleets' as quickly as you claim, either because they can build a new fleet quickly, or because they can jump an existing one in from elsewhere. assuming its TEC, its not a real problem, after all, if we are at the stage where we are using Kosturas, then im sure fleet supply is all but maxed out already, meaning a fleet has to be brought from elsewhere. if its the Vasari and they have a phase gate close by, then yes, the invading fleet MIGHT be in trouble. BUT thats only if the Vasari player can bring his entire fleet supply to bear against the invaders, because numbers are numbers, and speed means nothing if you are fighting 3-1 odds against. AND, yes, if the Vasari invaders do end up kicking the bucket, the Vasari defenders have now left however many planets UNDEFENDED. so while Team B Vasari (or anyone really) is in his backyard defending against a flank by an empires entire fleet supply, Team A is at the front door... no, sorry, they are already in your living room eating your cookies and watching your cable. oh, i almost forgot the second tactic. if there are no suitable backwater planets,  all Team A has to do is adequately scout out all primary and secondary frontline worlds (as in, outermost planets and then one in from the outermost), find a suitable location, and jump in a Vasari fleet. take out that world, or not, at least cripple it. then, send the vasari fleet one planet out to a frontline world and flank them, while bringing in reinforcements from your allies from the front. any fleet caught in that system will be crushed by 2 or 3 fleets. also, if you chose to flank a world with an enemy fleet, you could trick them into moving that fleet back a jump. if you time it well (TEC remote probe ability, Vasari scout phasing ability, Advent lingering presence ability etc) you could even jump the Vas fleet out while the enemy fleet is jumping in. it would give you a few more seconds to cause havoc and bring in reinforcements

tell me how even one empire jumping in behind your lines does not already break a sense of frontlines? however, and ive made this point, i realise 3 empires jumping fleets into the middle of your empire could be unbalanced, so a tweak would be needed to limit or prohibit the effect being available to allies.

still, you are saying if my recommendations are accepted, allies could send in diff kinds of tech... true, but then the defenders could bring in similar tech to defend. thats one of my biggest arguements, its not unbalanced if everyone can do it. you can bring in a Marza, I can bring in a Marza you can bring in a progen, I can bring in a progen, you can fire a kostura, i can fire a deliverance. you dont seem to understand this point, it is not unbalanced because it can be done right back to you! hey, what if instead of defending my worlds i instead counterattacked your worlds with my fleet? would you keep attacking my worlds or would you try to back out and defend? i must say it would be interesting, to see the map totally inverted like that.

oh, so you agree with me that Vas SB can act as a phase stabiliser? and you thought i didnt know anything about the Vasari... hmm, embarrasing huh? by defenses i also meant any ships in the area. im pretty sure you cant build a SB in 15 seconds, so god forbid you jump a small fleet to the enemy's main shipyard and get caught with your pants down and a gun up your ass. but, once again, how does this help your arguement? if anything, you are agreeing with me... im almost getting embarrased to keep pointing this out to you. Almost.

It is still a threat. Im not sure you entirely understand what a flank is. Yes, a flank could be hitting them from behind where the defenses are weak, but once the light switches on above the enemy's head, he turns around, brings his fleet to bear, and then proceeds to take you on just as if you had attacked him from the front. like you've said before, a single flanking fleet wont do enough damage before it is eradicated. BUT a true flank is to be attacking from 2 or more sides. if i attack you from your backwater planets, you turn your fleet around and engage me, when you are equidistant between the two planets, i send my other fleet in to the frontline world you just left. now you have to split your attention and you fleet. and then, i can either attack another planet, either backwater or frontier, or i can include guerilla tactics and use a bunch of kosturas to jump in SB's and or Seige frigs at a number of other planets, especially ones that have artifacts on them then, i can either send the seige frigs out to other planets to continue the mayhem, or use the SB built to bring them back to my empire ready for another attack. so now your attention is split between 2 major fleet battles and 3/4/5 however many guerilla attacks.

"Not resorting to Marza spamming..." thats like saying, have i ever tried to drive a car without tires... hell, on the same token i can ask if you could have done it without using the phase gates. thats the second time you've argued a point by using an example that is exclusively geared towards your arguement, and often requires outrageous circumstances.

"Even if the TEC can build fast..." YOU are the one proclaiming Vasari mobility is balanced by TEC production and numbers. You are now saying that, regardless, a ready made, quickly deployed Vasari fleet will beat a TEC fleet that has to be created? Usually, i would agree without unless you can turn out between 5 and 10 ships at a time. Except ths funny thing is that you are now arguing from my point of view.

so, yeah, im confused, which is it? and, once again, what does it have to do with giving allies the ability to use your gates?

i mean, based on your arguements here, you are saying the game is currently UNbalanced, because no matter how fast the TEC build a new fleet (which, by your proclamation, is supposed to balance with Vasari superior mobility) they still wont be able to defend as well as the Vasari can. And im not even going to start with the Advent, because, yes, their fleets have higher survivability, but in terms of defense, they have neither the mobility or the econ power of the other two races. im starting to think you a Vasari fan boy and you dont want your own 'Marza Missile Barrage' to be shared among the other races... how sad and pathetic of you, considering how you are shoving the Marza lover comment on me every chance you get.

i really hope you dont intend to pursue a career in anything that requires you to argue. because the amount of time you spend off topic, making wild accusations and assumptions, and still, attempting to attack me instead of my arguements, would see you out a a job very quickly. its almost like you dont have confidence in your arguements... considering how you are grasping for anything and everything to use against me. sad... sad person

once again with the personal attacks? and they are not even relevant. i dont need to know exactly where the phase gate tech is on the tree, i just need to know that it is up there with the Heavy Cruisers and Advanced weapons and culture research. Conversely, id challenge you to state off the top of your head each ability that every ship and starbase in the game has. id challenge you to know off the top of your head where each piece of research tech is located on each tech tree for each race. seriously, if you are such an encyclopedia, and are so superior to the rest of us who dont memorise every piece of info in every one of our game, and cant find the time to support your point of view, then why on earth do you lower yourself to playing with us?

So, 10 players per the larges map, lets make Team A TEC and Advent with 3 Advent and 5 TEC and 1 Vasari and... lets say 1 TEC, seeing how you herald them for quick production and how they will be able to feed the Vasari to make phase gates.

Sound outrageous? well, the above paragraph says any proportion. you are obviously so confident that quick deployment can counter pure numbers? no mater how fast you can move your ships around, you still cant take on 8 empires worth of fleet supply by yourself, especially if they co-ordinate effectively.

okay, now seriously, lets say 5v5 or 6v4, 1 Vas, 2 TEC and an Advent, vs 3 TEC and 3 Advent. have you ever heard of a Greco Gambit? Its where he sacrifices a piece to ultimately end up with a superior playing position. Same thing here, Team A sends in an Advent fleet large enough to be a juicy target, maybe mix in some TEC for realism and increased damage potential/survivability. Team B responds with 1.5 empires fleet supply, Team A repeats the process on the other side of the map, except with a full TEC and Advent fleet supply, while sending in reinforcements to the first battle. Team B increases fleet supply to the first battle so there are now 2 empires fleet supply there, and sends another 2 fleet supply to the other flank. there is now 2 more max fleet supplies left to break the line at any point of their choosing. so you will send some ships to intercept, but you are going badly at your other battles, and you still have to send some ships away to counter 2 max fleet supply. or, lets say one empire stays behind to stave off any inconvinient counterattacks by you. so, why are you going badly? Because, regardless of whether Missile Barrage is actually OP or not, even a dumbass will still use it, because its there, and its useful. Because, an Advent Battleball plus Deliverance Engine, plus a Starbase if they decide to drop on is going to cause you some serious havoc. so, while your fleets are being BBQ'd and you have no ships to counter-attack with, i have yet to send in another max fleet supply. i can either use it to tip the balance and wipe you out, or i can run in behind you and cut off your retreat, or i can jump in elsewhere, and either cause havoc on your frontier worlds, or break to the rear of your empire (given, though, that would take time) and cause havoc back there, taking out super weapons, Artifact worlds, shipyard planets, capital planets. and i dont even have to extract that fleet. i can leave it at the back there and have it martyr to take out some more important structures/planets. then i just start the whole process again.

and thats just that strategy, there would be many ways to stage an attack without instant deployment. Spam Novaliths. Use 85% your fleet supply to distract the enemy 10% to prevent counter attacks and 5% to make guerilla runs against his planets, drop starbases in his GW to take out structures and the planet and then defend the area, and if it cant defend, it can at least take out a bunch of his fleet supply with it

"I believe you may have killed zounds of noobs..." again, with the assumptions you dont know who i have played against or how long, and honestly, its irrelevant. and again with the Marza, tell me, where have i said i think it is balanced or not? really, i dont care, im not going to sabotage my ability to wage war effectively because i believe something is unfair to the enemy. its there, its how the devs wanted it, if you think you are greater-than-thou and cant get over being missile barraged, go cry to someone who cares. you dont seem to think the ability to spam Marza's is unbalanced? alot of people want to see the ability to tribute ships to other players. were you upset about that? you can get your own MB yay you! but talking about 'super-balanced', you seem to be happy being able to jump your fleets into my backyard, drop a SB, cause havoc, then jump out if the heat gets too much, but god forbid you are losing, then everyone has to scrabble to make sure your feelings dont get hurt when you lose. seriously mate, pull your head out of your ass and stop talking crap

but i do agree that it would be an advantage, and thats what alliances are all about! A relationship that is advantageous for all parties. What are alliances atm? you get some trade, maybe a feed (though not if playing with AI) and some more ships to play with, and with the AI, they arent all that effective.

okay, so lets say it is unbalanced. then in those competitive 5v5 matches, code in an ability to disable phase gates effecting allies. but for those of us who like to play for fun, and who arent really concerned with how unbalanced a 0.5% damage buff or nerf or whatever against this ship or that ability, the ability would be interesting to have, especially for comp stomps.

hey, for the X-pack why not add some new structures/ships that can somehow affect allies as well as yourself? that way every race has something more tangible to offer to an alliance. it could also give another aspect to making and breaking alliances. for instance, lets say the TEC have an ability that lets allies build ships 75% faster. then, you send you vasari or advent ally to attack an enemy. said fleet is destroyed by the enemy, this would be a perfect opportunity to jump ship and turn on your ally. he martyred his fleet thinking he could rebuild it quickly, he now has no fleet and no way to rebuild quick enough, you take him out quickly and there you are with more planets.

hey, maybe not giving access to phase gates but enabling allied ships to phase jump faster or more effeciently. honestly, i really couldnt care less. i happen to like this idea, but i can live without it. but i do like the idea of mixing techs. and ill remind you, that strictly speaking, these 3 races shouldnt be able to ally with each other, according to lore. so, while we are breaking the lore, we might as well make it interesting huh?

 

First, start using using these little fellas:  .

It may make your posts slightly more understandable.

Second, it seems my posts are too long for you, cause you can't seem to grasp the whole point.
I'll try to keep my responses short.

It does matter. You don't see phase stabilizers too much around in normal multiplayer because it is hardly useful until the game is already won - then it is just a gadget. Its position on the tech tree is important. If Stabilizers were useful to allies, they would definately feed to make the Vasari build them. Vasari would be reduced to a taxi corporation in the first 20 minutes.
You perceive the Vasari through the scope of a TEC player. News flash - there is much more to Vasari than is shown in multiplayer games. MP games favor spamming stuff, brutal simple tactics. Phase stabilization is not one of them, it is hardly helpful or worth the price unless the map is insanely huge or there is some very prolonged stalemate at a frontline spanning over many GWs.

You can't remember your OWN words? Sad.
Hint: Use CTRL+F, type 'nov' and see whose post first mentions a novalith. I only responded in kind.

You reasoned that TEC can support the Vasari very well by novalithing their enemy's worlds and that Kostura can't. It can't blow the planet, it will blow whatever you're fighting there.

All I can say is - watch out what you write if replying to some of that you find irrelevant.
I won't comment the latter part. Are you angry? Great .

No. Read it until you understand. The Vasari flies and egg through the not-yet-fortified-by-anyone system and colonizes a planet between his ISOLATED ALLY's planets. That way, his isolated ally is no longer isolated, anything the whole team has can be brought to aid the guy.

Don't live your dreams yet. You can, as long as you have fleet supply. Right now, when only Vasari can bring their fleet around, they can throw a one-player worth of fleet to defend their ass.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE TO THROW EVERY FVCKIN CRUISER AND SCOUT AT THE HANDFUL OF SHIPS YOU SEND IN THEIR REAR YOU IGNORANT so stop crafting theory on how you're gonna attack their underfended frontlines. They can respond however they want to, they won't leave their front worlds undefended. And even if they do, they will be back in another 30 seconds.
Secondly, which you utterly fail to understand, the point here is: If a rear world of a 2TEC & Advent alliance is attacked, only the owner can quickly respond, the others not only have to build fleets nearby (even if they all had resources for a new fleet) but they would have to send them across many systems to reach the point of invasion.
If your suggestion passed, the enemy alliance with a Vasari player would be able to jump a 2-player worth fleet into a weakly defended rear system (which you could NOT reinforce with enough ships, since one player has only so much fleet supply), annihilate it in 50 seconds and (before anyone even farts in your TEC&Advent alliance) be back to repel any counterstrikes.

All of this is void. You utterly don't understand how phase gating works and you completely forget the defenders would use it. I don't intend to waste half an hour on bashing you here if you just don't make sense.

Buahaha. So you are saying that you can't win a game without a Marza? That says it all about you. And the game's balance ;].
Comparing Phase gates to Marza spamming is a laugh.
Marza is a stupid ship that is the biggest AI abuser in this game, as no AI will ever counter it or run away from a barrage. If you think that using it against AI is even remotely related to any sort of fair play or balance, you're a fail.
Phase gates are the equivalent of your Industrial Juggernaut and other production-boosting techs in conjunction with your fast Trade Ports and general abundance of cash, if anything. Try to win without THAT. Oh sorry, I forgot. You're the TEC. You can win the game with 15 Marza's alone and still think it is balanced.
Man you're a laugh.

Phase gating is a tech like any other on your tree. Using it is in no way wrong. Spamming one cap ship cause it can destroy 5million credits worth of a fleet because the AI is too stupid to counter that is a little different thing.

Okay, I'll put it down for you AGAIN.
A Vasari using his own phase gates to jump his own fleet into a single TEC's territory in a 1v1 game is FAIR. The TEC has an abundance of money and can build up in the gravwell one or two away from where the attack is made. He only has to counter one player's fleet. It's ok.
Now let's take two teams: Team V has Vasari, team N does Not.
When the Vasari is able to bring some of his team V allies' fleets with him, this changes. By a lot. That one poor TEC is NOT capable of defending these planets at ALL. He needs his friends' fleet, he just can't defeat a fleet that has more ships than he could ever produce AND the technology of all the team V's players. they don't have to bring EVERYTHING in his ass, it is enough to bring 110% of what the guy can produce and they've already raped him. Also be aware of the fact that a combo of Progenitors, Skirantras, Dunovs, Hoshikos, Cielos, Overseers and God knows what else battleball bullshlt is just impossible to counter with only one player's technology. But can the defending TEC player have his ally's aid him? No, because they're far away. Before they come, the invaders will have raped three planets and establishe defenses.
All the N alliance can do in this situation is attack the Vasari's allies frontline in return. But the V team not only has a combined force ready, even if not as big as yours - they can have defenses set up, SBs, tactical structures. You are forced to attack a defensive position or be raped, which puts you into a disadvantage as you go.

And yet again you forget that when I send 150% of what you send against me, your fleet is gonna be reduced to scrap metal in 2 minutes. Then all I have to do is leave a little to finish you off and jump wherever you attack next.
I can do guerilla too. And I can do it better, cause I can attack your homeworld, not only the front worlds.
And do you really think I will be at all surprised after seeing your fleets jump all along my frontline before you attack?
All your theory AGAIN seems to forget that the defenders have phase gates throughout the fight, not just to respond to the first attack. Your guerilla parties I can counter too, from anywhere I want.

In a 5v5 fight it would really be retarded. One more TEC player gives some more money and production capacity for the team, while one Vasari player would give the WHOLE team an ability to be anywhere they want.

A nice big rant over my sarcastic opening that didn't even have anything to do with the point of what you've quoted. Do you feel better?

So here you start fantasizing about brand new ideas of how to allow your idea and yet to limit it and yadda yadda.
I say this: Vasari and other races may and possibly should be given more ways to support their allies. Not basing on the lore which we both seem to agree that it is broken so far (TEC allied with Advent? What? Vasari fighting Vasari?? WHAT??!). Basing on the heart of a competitive and fun strategy game that naturally features big fights of alliances each composed of (some of) the three different races.

New, BALANCED options of supporting allies, yes.

A flat, lone changelog line saying

•  Ships can now jump between Phase Stabilizers that belong to their allied Vasari players.

is a big fat NO

Fair enough. I've read through this topic since I posted it, and I have to agree with N3Rull.

I hadn't actually looked at it that way until he made all these posts.

okay so?

...no it wont... it disables them true, but im not going to get into it because its not relevant

are you talking about a single star map or a multi? anyway, yeah so? that would be the point. if they didnt have that, whats to stop the other empire bringing all it has to bear and crushing him early game? i mean, if one player is so isolated that hes going to get swamped by enemies... why would he want to keep playing? yes, he could hang around and provide a feed, but surely he's not going to last long. thats not my idea of fun, and i dont think its anyone elses either. still, with the possibility of dropping a starbase with a phase gate, this point become somewhat moot. valid, but not one for concession.

im not living on my dreams, i know its only while there is fleet supply, you, however, were hailing that as THE thing that balances the vasari being able to move ships around their empire in 1 jump. funny thing is, i take your arguements and definition and use them myself so we can at least agree on some points, funny thing is when i take what you say you turn around and cry OH BUT I DIDNT MEAN THAT. boo hoo, pick a side and stick to it.

well, i dont know about you, but when i attack an enemy, 90% of the time i throw everything i have into the attack. he already has home turf advantage, with SB's, mines and defenses, culture, short supply lines and more. i dont really have the luxury to leave ships at home. and, even with SB's etc 2500 fleet supply is alot of hostiles. i am talking about max fleet supplies, because if i tried to account for every single possible fleet configuration and strength, research levels, culture levels, other activities going on atm (pirate attacks included) superweapon attacks, whether they bring a SB constructor to the battle, etc etc. im talking generically. but, the fact is, if i throw everything i have at you, you are going to need throw alot back. honestly i dont remember the last time i lost more than 5 or 6 ships when going up against a Starbase, and, like you keep screaming, i can replace them very quickly as TEC.

how can even the owner respond quickly? if you pick the furthest point from as many large fleets as possible, then not even the owners of the planet in question could respond in time. though, if a fleet is in position to respond quickly, but still on the frontlines, then chances are a friendly fleet is just one more jump away.
you see, im not sure what rules you are playing by. half the time, you are saying Advent and TEC can just build a new fleet, the other half of the time you are saying OMG you idiot that only works if you have fleet supply you noob waah waah. far out, pick one. i mean, when it suits you, advent and tec can whip up a fleet, when it doesnt, you turn upside down and start arguing against your own points. id really like to put you infront of a mirror and see you drive yourself crazy.

i mean, you say that a backyard invasion by just a vasari player can be repelled, but suddenly 2 players makes it uncounterable? (oh, and btw, you snapped at me for talking about max fleet supplies, and now you are talking about max fleet supplies... its hard to take you seriously when you cant get your own story straight) yes, 2 empires worth of fleet supply would be damn near uncounterable (an Argonev big red button could help though...) but then you have 2 empires largely undefended. yes, you may be back in 50 seconds, but as soon as you attack me, i force the breach and take a couple of your planets. you scratch my back i scratch yours.

if im not mistaken Phase stabilisers take 10 tac spots right? thats a helluva lot to put on every other world. and if you reply with the orkulus can act as a phase stabiliser, sure, but thats even more expensive, and once its gone, or still cooling down (2 mins on 5 mins off if im not mistaken?) then you have to jump further away than is optimal. but seriously, you think you can jump into one of my systems, take it out, and jump back in time to defend against counter strikes by my forces which are only one jump away? you are delusional mate. really.

are you getting angry? great

what the hell are you talking about? im talking about firing a kostura at planet X, using the temp phase gate there to jump in a small fleet of ships, either seige frigs or assault crusiers or whatever. bring a migrator and drop a SB (or, if you dont have the cash, bring a marauder) upgrade with phase gates and jump back out. tell me, what have i completely forgot? if anything, you forgot your fleet has been tied up by my full strength attacking fleets at both sides of your GW. every ship you take from one battle makes it that much easier to win. so you say your allies chime in with reinforcements, okay, and what about my allies? they're just sitting around right? they either come to my aid or are busy attacking your allies. im not forgetting anything, read it until you understand, or else get someone to explain it in itty bitty words for you.

yes, there is potential for it all to go horribly pearshaped. yes, this strategy could fail, but thats the point! if one fleet is not in position at the correct time, or gets unexpectedly or prematurely destroyed for whatever reason, then yeah, its possible the entire plan falls apart and you then counter attack and wipe the floor with me. but this exact strategy is possible now, just on a much smaller scale. instead of jumping 2 empires worth of fleet supply into your backyard, ill just jump in one, and just have my ally attack your front like he normally would. if you are vasari, then yeah, you can counter it, but if not, then you are in trouble. ahh, im sorry, i get it, this is one of those times you change the rules and dont tell anyone. you see, you are bashing this example, but then in this post you take this very example and use it against me... so... are you arguing for my team or yours? i appreciate the thought, but its kinda hard to argue a point when we are both saying the same thing?

i never said it was balanced, and ive said that many times, you just like to live in your own little world where selective hearing (or reading in this case) is the norm. and again, i never said i couldnt win A game without a marza, i said i probably couldnt win against 6 or more unfair AI without at least a few marzas. what i was comparing, jackass, is a unique ability. the vasari can move ships around quickly, the TEC can blow them up quickly. its pretty apparent you already think the TEC is inferior in just about every way to the Vasari, you are just upset that there is something they are good at. i mean, you have to (grudgingly) admit they need a good economy, otherwise they wouldnt be a threat at all, but at the first chance of the TEC being a REAL threat? actually making you have to work for it? this is another thing where you only focus on what applies to your arguement. The vasari can defeat 6 Unfair AI at once because they can move fleets around to all points of attack quickly. the TEC make up for this fantastic ability, by being able to build fleets quickly and cheaply, THAT is why its not unbalanced. oh, but but but its not AS good as the vasari because you cant build a fleet without fleet supply! hey, really, i dont care if its fair. its like saying, hey, look, they attacked me, but me dropping a nuke on them isnt really fair, so ill just send thousands of troops, alot of them to their deaths and millions of dollars/credits out the window. why? well, i want to be fair to them. do you realise how much of an idiot you sound like? im not playing for the sportsmanship, its a challenge, and im playing to win. and of course, the fact that Unfair AI already get bonuses to resource extraction etc doesnt factor into your idea of 'fairness' huh?

you yourself said you chose vasari because it gave you an advantage. one, that, funnily enough, isnt really duplicated by the AI, even on unfair. the AI isnt smart enough to do that, so yeah, you are such a champ mate, my idol for exploiting the AI and then laughing and doing a victory dance because i wanted to do the same as you (exploit the AI). real champion mate, its so hard to take you seriously because you challenge the world but then change the rules. whimp.

its funny, you compare phase gates to industrial juggernaught, now who is the uneducated one? the ONLY tech the TEC have that actually speeds up ship production is a VERY expensive, 3-level tier SEVEN tech (Industrial Juggernaught) and the other 'production boosting tech' as you call it, only help with resource extraction/credit income, and those are:
1. seperate lines of research (metal crystal respectively) and,
2. located on tiers 4 and 6, with two prerequisites to even start researching
yes, there are a bunch of techs like favoured-client discounts and expedited permits, but those things dont actually affect how quickly you can build ships, and how many times do you really need to build a factory? 

now the Vasari on the other hand, get a trade port level 3 (TEC get it level two *tear*) and resource sublimation (increased resource income) for BOTH resources comes level 2 and improved trade income comes level 5.
you get a level 7 tech that lowers the cost of all structures
and a level 3 tech that lowers the cost of ships
phase stabilisation comes at level 5, with an upgrade to phase jumping between stabilisers at level 7
as well as an upgrade to let you field more ships at level 6
plus free ships periodically at level 8, provided you have fleet supply. yes its level 8, but its free ships every once in a while depending how many stabilisers you have your could be getting reinforcements every few seconds.

now, im not saying the Vasari is better than the TEC at econ or production, im just making sure you know that phase stabilisation is NOT the balancing agent for TEC production capabilities. The Vasari have plenty of research to increase their production effeciency. i mean, with some of that research, the Vasari end up having 2875 fleet supply (on large fleet sizes)!

hey, aside from all the that extra tech, lets look at the two research items you named. Industrial Juggernaught and Phase Stabilisation:
Industrial Juggernaught = 3-level very expensive tier 7 tech,
Phase Stabilisation = 1-level slightly less expensive tier 5 tech.

hmm... yep, its all balance and fairness huh?

now this is where you argue "oh, but Vasari keep paying for phase gates because they have to be built" yeah, and TEC have to keep paying for ships as they get destroyed and replaced (or at least, from how you see the TEC)

its not fair. really, unless the TEC had maybe half again the fleet supply of the Vasari, and could simply scuttle and build a fleet in the time it takes a vasari fleet to jump across a star system, then yes, it would be fair... as it stands, its not, and you've said this yourself on a number on occasions, at those times when you feel it would be advantageous to debunk your own reasons for why the TEC can survive without phase gates.

hold on, now you are saying its just another tech? what so its like immense cargo holds? ill get more money. ill be dead, but ill have a real swanky funeral. hey, if it ever comes down to the TEC run out of ammo and need to throw credits at the enemy, we'll be set. you of course dont think being able to jump in all your ships behind my starbases and mines is wrong huh? i mean, i have this custom map a friend of mine made. 4 players, one star, 30 planets to a player, linked to the star and fortified by a single pirate base, geographically symmetrical, real nice for a comp stop or turtle masher. there is the star, then the pirate base, then 2 more terran planets, then 3 asteroids. lets say you fortify all that with starbases, mines and defenses (where applicable) and station fleets around. how do you think im going to feel when you shoot my homeworld and jump in ALL your 2875 fleet supply, and totally bypass all my millions of credits worth of defenses?

yes, thats really fair.

first, choose a goddamn side, either the TEC can build a new fleet to counter or he cant. assuming by this stage he has the

you were talking about, he should be able to just keep spamming units and just setting them to rally in the GW under attack. i know its not a sufficient counter but meh. and really, whats stopping 5 vasari players from doing the exact same thing to an alliance of TEC/Advent? they cant stop it. really, the only difference is the vasari team doesnt have marza's and progens etc, but with the amount of Eggs im sure they are bringing to the table, plus the 5 SB's they are allowed to build in that GW, what could the TEC or Advent, or even another Vasari player do to counter it? you would need at least 2-3 Vasari players in any 5v5 match, just to counter the other vasari!!!

you probably dont know, being the vasari fanboy you are, but the TEC SB has an ability to whip up ships faster than even a factory. im not sure about Advent (i doubt it) but at least TEC allies can build up in each others empires. i agree though, its a problem. so we dont give allies access to kostura cannon temp gates or marauder temp gates. the vasari player has to build either a standard phase gate after colonising the planet, of a fully upgraded starbase (fully as in total phase tech research done) to balance it the second level of phase tech research could be slowed by a bit, giving a defending fleet time to rock up.

so you think you send 150% of the fleet i send against you, and you are going to come out of it with the entire fleet remaining? are you daft? yes, ill probably be destroyed, thats the gambit. sacrifice that fleet to get a foot hold in your empire. so, now you jump out with 50% (and im being conservative, not considering my OP missile barrage that nevertheless will drill you) less than the fleet you jumped in with, then you move else where, you may not exactly have the luxury of, once again, sending in 150% of what i send in. and you definitly cant send it everywhere i am. all it takes is 5 seige frigs at a lonely planet somewhere. sure, it may not be as important as losing your homeworld, or an artifact world, but with the weak vasari economy, even 1 planet could be a big loss. and you have to send enough ships to stop me, are you saying you are going to spend 10 tac slots to put a gate at EVERY single planet? thats like 10 turrets or 2 hangars and a repair platform or phase inhibitor. and if you use the starbase, do you really have the econ to drop a SB at every single planet?

my fleet will be scrap metal in 2 mins? with enough ships plus assault cruisers, i can turn plenty of your starbases into scrap.

haha, wait, you think im going to attack sequentially? you idiot, im going to attack all at once, or even start my main offensive then create a diversion. you cant pay attention to every ship that enters your territory. all it says is there are enemies headed for X. i could spam 10-15 scouts and have them hit your line all over the place, you wont know where im going, i could jump a large fleet into a particular GW, and you might see it if you happen to be zoomed out far enough at that point in time, and even so, how do you know i havent scuttled all the ships in that GW and re-built them in another GW? you dont know anything. just what you think you know. right now, im walking you through it. during a game i doubt you'd have the presence of mind to think about my next 5 moves. hey, as TEC i can novalith your planets. sure, you will still have defenses there, but the game wont tell you when my fleet is approaching. you'll have to keep an eye out until you can re-colonise. tell me, how are you going to get anything done or concentrate on anything if you are paranoid about where my attack is going to come from?

you can guerilla my homeworld? so the starbase and the mines and the strikecraft and the big red button arent going to give you any trouble huh? okay then. maybe the kostura knocks out mines, but there is still alot to keep you interested. however, yes, i agree, a vasari can very much jump into an enemy homeworld, disable his structures, wipe out a SB if there is one, then wipe out the planet itself. i agree completely. you still think its fair? the fact you can circumvent the already iffy planetary defenses with the press of a button, and then directly jump in a fleet to finish the job. you wouldnt have to use many ships either. a SB to take out mine, help put down the factories etc there, then go about mopping up the disabled mines while you attack my planet... and i cant even get ships there or build new ones, because if im not yet at my max fleet supply, there is every chance ill have to research more first, and then i have to build it in an adjacent system because the factorys at my homeworld are out of action for 3 mins.

and you complain about the MB... yes, so unfair, us TEC, man, we just spam this ship and take out all your fleet... really, i feel for you, it must be so hard. Ass

and again, so instead of having 5 vasari players, you only have one... well, advent battleball and marza aside... what else can allies bring? based on your arguements, a team of 5 vasari would be more effective than any number of marzas, because you can simply jump in all your fleet behind my lines, and i cant really do much, planetary defenses are down for three mins, i cant build new ships or bring in old ones fast enough, definitly not in sufficient number. lets be conservative, 2 vasari players can bring more force to bear on any single point that can truly be diverted by any single empire. and even if you target a vasari world with a phase gate, and if you have another allied vasari, it does not matter because you say allies shouldnt be able to use other allies tech, so your vasari friend can only jump in as far as he actually has a phase gate, then has to jump the old fashioned way the rest of the way. while two kostura cannon blasts can let two fleets jump there instantly.

well, i find it to be more constructive, helpful, fun/insteresting to me and building a more friendly, open-minded community forum if i recommend ideas, give my opinion as a player, join in conversation, praise for good ideas etc etc, rather than being A GODDAMN TROLL and sitting on your goddamn high horse shooting peoples ideas down, and then when they continue to support their ideas, you resort to attacking them. were you beaten as a child? bullied? mum dropped you at birth? idn, but you DEFINITLY arent an example of some of the finer aspects of this forum.

so we do agree on something? now i dont know why you couldnt have skipped all this shit and instead of being an arrogant prick, tried to be constructive. honestly, id have been happy with a debate about what we could have done to give allies a way to support each other, instead you were more interested in proving your manhood and how awesome an alpha male you are.

love the arrogance, do you pick up girls with that? do they even look at you or do they just go straight for the slap and humiliating you infront of everyone?

you are a sad sad little person. come on a forum and act like king shit. wow, man, your such a champion...

ive said my piece. its obvious im not going to get you to even consider, i should have known when you started taking opposing sides whenever i tried to argue on your terms. it also seems as though no one else is taking an interest in this thread, certainly not the guy who made it.

if you have some decent, civilised debate to be had over why a team of 5 or even 2 vasari with kostura and phase gate tech isnt unbalanced and OP, im welcome to hear it, as long as it doesnt become a shit slinging contest.

honestly, there are poeple here a dozen times more worthy of conversation than you. atm you are only worth my pity and contempt.

enjoy your big bloody macho bullying of people on the internet, you big, strong, manly man you!

Pathetic.

(I didn't read the whole thread, so if my point has been previously mentioned, forgive me.)

I think a lot of people have missed the OP's point.  It seems to me that a lot of people are assuming that the OP wanted the TEC ally to be able to build and utilize their own Phase Stabilizers because their Vasari ally is able to.  That is not what I believe the OP wanted.

I believe the OP was suggesting that an ally of a Vasari faction could use the existing Stabilizers to make direct jumps.  As such, it really isn't unfeasable...they would first have to get themselves to the nearest Vasari-controlled system with a Stabilizer in it, then they could use that to jump to another system with a Stabilizer.  That is not so unreasonable.

And it is self-balancing.  TEC can't build thier own stabilizers, they can only use existing ones built by Vasari allies, and only while they're allied.

That's all I can tell you.

1) You keep reading selectively, exaggerating one word and forgetting the next one. I can't talk with that, I won't repeat myself the FOURTH time.
2) It seems you are a pretty lifeless person, judging by the amount of bullshit you can produce. Seriously. I have my studying, my girlfriend (I treat girls with respect; you're doing everything not to earn a particle of it), my job and other business to look after. You win here - I don't have enough time to waste on reading all that vile and retarded crap you're shitting like it was your walk of life.
3) I've had enough of your insults. It is not me who began a shit slinging contest you retarded bitch. Up until this post, all my direct assaults against you sum up to a single digit and were only responses to your own. Your attacks against me go into dozens. My first indirect act of irritation (NOT an insult) was in reply #13. Your insults began in reply #14. I waved my hand at you. You started being a pheg.
Stay a pheg. I'm out.
4) I managed to make my point to the person who made this thread. At least he wanted to read my argument thoroughly.
You sir, are beyond any hope of recovery.

Well we all know what OP wanted and we've been talking about it.
Please care to read at least some of my posts and examples of why it would not be just plain cool.
I won't show up in this thread. The retard-factor here is beyond measurable, with just one man contributing to it.
If you wish to discuss it further, I'm open for it; please PM me.