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Getting back to Elemental

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Getting back to Elemental

from JoeUser Forums

Midleavel_Farm_Test2 As Elemental players know, I had been on Elemental since early this year. Then…Demigod was released and the online experience for that game has been a total cluster.  So I had to “assign myself” to Demigod to figure out what the deal was and make sure it got fixed.

In my view, too many moving parts. I’m not a huge fan of multiplayer-centric games in the first place. I’m particularly not a fan of peer to peer multiplayer-centric games on the PC because on the PC, unlike on the console, the developer is stuck writing this stuff – or in Demigod’s case, the publisher had to go out and license stuff which turned out to be a disaster. 

But now my time on Demigod is starting to come to an end – at least in terms of it dominating my life.  I’m looking forward to working on a game that we’re both developing and publishing so I don’t have to take a beating for things I can’t really do anything about.

Ramifications

I had to assign both Cari and Jesse (our two top game developers) to Demigod to largely rewrite the multiplayer system. This will have an impact on Elemental’s schedule. Sorry. People paid good money for Demigod and you know me, I am not about assigning blame or caring whose fault something is so my attitude is that the problem had to be solved quickly.

They’re still on Demigod this week working with developer Gas Powered Games on a slew of new APIs that will let the game be expanded well into the future. Then they can get back to Elemental next week.

Demigod’s impact on Elemental

The good news is that because we ended up having to develop our own multiplayer module to help with Demigod, we can use that on Elemental.  Now, to be crystal clear: Elemental is a single player centric game. It will have multiplayer but to be honest, I’m not willing to sacrifice a single feature of the game for multiplayer.  So if multiplayer is your main thing, you might as well stay away from Elemental.

That said, here are a few things that multiplayer in Elemental will have:

1. Multiplayer games will be hosted by us. Period. No peer to peer. Not even hosted on the user’s box. Our servers. No ports, no proxies, nothing. We’re hosting it.

2. I’m killing off the bots concept. People hate them. I thought they were cool but they’re too much work only to be hated. So there won’t be artificial players.

3. We will support empires (clans), scheduled games, and group join from the start since those features will get added (by us) to Demigod.

Fewer moving parts

We are revisiting the way the economy works in Elemental to simplify it.  There’s been some positive developments that I can’t talk about yet. The short version though is there will be likely be a lot lot lot more story to Elemental than anything we’ve done before.  Each sand box game should feel like an epic story if we do it right. We’ll see.

Release dates

I can say that Beta 0 is not going to happen in June now.  We might be able to do an Alpha then but that will only go out to a very tiny number of people (maybe 100 tops).  I’m reserving 10 places and the rest will come from the pre-order pool as a lottery with points given to those who have GalCiv II + Sins + Demigod.  Beta 0 would likely be July at this point but I’ll know more at the end of the week.

255,227 views 150 replies
Reply #76 from Elemental Forums Top

 

 

Quoting Frogboy, reply 1
Let's be clear on the bots:

You can have AI players in MP if you CHOOSE.

But we won't be inserting artificial players (bots) into games unless users explicitly ask for them. Before, we planned to have bots operating on their own server looking for MP games to join complete with their own chat capabilities.

===========

1. Multiplayer games will be hosted by us. Period. No peer to peer. Not even hosted on the user’s box. Our servers. No ports, no proxies, nothing. We’re hosting it.

Thanks for the clarification on the bots,  but can we have some answers for the sudden decision regarding multiplayer games?

Does this mean  also mean no  PBEM  games  and no  HOTSEAT  games?  

Why not  PBEM  and  HOTSEAT  games?          8C

Reply #77 from Demigod Forums Top

well i dont get it

i dont want a multiplayer only game but EVERY game in the 2009 has to be a good multi game

after you play with ia try different races or avatars or whatever YOU WANT to play with friends

every game actually has to tend to multi

has to have multiplayer?

I suspect Brad would point to his porche and mansion and say that those things disagree with you. :)

Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #78 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Ashain, reply 25
...Heh, my point wasn't whether you like him or not, but that you'd know exactly who I was talking about. You and probably 95% of the people reading this i'd imagine

I scoff most survey data, but the question you guess about here is answerable and interesting. I have no idea about any of the names you've mentioned (games or characters), but I suspect that's because they're in the so-called RPG genre of PC (and/or deck) games, which has never done more for me than make me pine for the days when I knew enough nerds with too much free time...

Mind you, I'm not in the story-schmory camp. I was very pleased to see word that the Elemental team will include some sort of writing and editing talent. And I think one of my favorite old games, Alpha Centauri, clearly illustrates that you can have a strong story matrix that actually helps long-term sandbox replayability. I guess the trick for Elemental will be avoiding any scenario/campaign-based ruts from appearing in sandbox mode while still retaining the major narrative themes, characters, settings, and any 'canon' events that don't need to be part of any specific larger sequence.

Reply #79 from Elemental Forums Top

Ahh thanks for the info Brad gotcha. Ok ill stop about bots... DoH! :X

Reply #80 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ddd888, reply 24

well i dont get it

i dont want a multiplayer only game but EVERY game in the 2009 has to be a good multi game

after you play with ia try different races or avatars or whatever YOU WANT to play with friends

every game actually has to tend to multi

Has to? Not hardly - there are tons of games out there that have done critically well without having multiplayer and more coming along that are anticpated to be good (and/or big budget) that also don't have MP - Portal, Mass Effect, World of Goo, Sims (any version other than Sims Online ;) ), Dragon Age (coming), Bioshock, Infamous (coming), Prototype (coming)... I'd rather no multiplayer (such as GalCiv II) than sucky multiplayer.

Given that more people play single player (even when MP is an option and well implemented), investing most heavily in SP makes absolute sense. I still want competent MP from Elemental, but I'd sacrifice it (or maybe want it as an add-on) if it was between that and something that made SP stellar.

Reply #81 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Ashain, reply 20

Couldn't disagree more.  There's a reason why names like Cloud Strife, Sephiroth and Aeris are burned into our memories.  How about Kerrigan and Jim Reynor?  Master Chief and Cortana?  2 out of three games I just mentioned have significant MP portions to them, but just about everyone played them first for the storyline.  Storyline gives you a sense of why you're there in the first place, and why do I care about this particular game.  Sandbox is very important as well, don't get me wrong, thats where the replayabilty comes in, but the art of telling a story with a game is getting a little muddled these days.  In my opinion a game without a story can only be good, but never great.
The only thing i'd like to add is though I would much rather not see the storyline be told in a GalCiv fashion.  A page worth of text followed by a pre-designed map with maybe a few pre-selected units to start with isn't the most compelling storyline.  I'd like to see it with in-game events or something more dynamic than a text page anyways.

The characters you've mentioned are from RPG games or Starcraft !!  If you want good story, play RPG, not EWOM!

What I said is Campaign story plays a role, nothing more nothing less; SD devs should not spend too much resources in story.  Excellent game mechanics that provides lots of strategic choices or varied situation is what EWOM should excel.   Story should be of really low priority.

IMHO, it is extremely difficult to provide good storyline/character for RMG maps.   Unless SD devs is able to find a way to do that well, story will exist only in SD Campaign & SD Scenarios which will got very limited play time, compared to RMG or player created material in the long run.

Establishing great game engine & game design & mechanism is most important for EWOM’s success.

Reply #82 from Elemental Forums Top

Let me provoke some thoughts here.

A civ/gal-civ/mom/moo-like turn-based strategy game has the following options for "story":

1) backstory in the manual.  Impact on game = none.

2) procedurally generated story a la Dwarf Fortress.  Impact on game = subtle.

3) player-event-based text (tech researched, building built, civ destroyed, etc) which is just static except for "insert-city-name-here" stuff.  Impact on game = none.

4) scripted events, like a WW2 game where pearl harbor always happens on December 7 1941 if the US still holds Hawaii (can be more flexible than that, but the content and game impact itself is predetermined by the developer/modder).  Impact on game = moderate to total annihilation

 

1 and 3 fit fairly well in this sort of game but don't really feel like much of a story to me.  Not bad, though.

2 is a herculean development task, but very interesting and can fit into the mold of a 4X/TBS game.  I wouldn't count on this being in Elemental since it'd probably add $20 to the price just to cover the planning and development time.

4 is reasonable from a development perspective assuming they need a decent scripting engine for other stuff anyway, but is very disruptive to standard sandbox gameplay.  It's great for mods where the *point* is something other than sandbox; like writing a FF7 mod with Sephiroth, Cloud, and Aeris running around with the player controlling one of them; in that case the player isn't supposed to be able to build up a little empire in the corner with no interference from the story.  But in the standard game?  The campaign might be a middle ground.

 

Ok, now prove me wrong: what options did I not list? how can 1 and 3 be "real" story? how is 2 feasible? how is 4 not game-disruptive?

 

All that said, I think it would be good to incorporate 1 and 3 into the normal game and provide scripting support for 4 (for moderate use in the campaign and extreme use in appropriate mods).

Reply #83 from Demigod Forums Top

 

 

Man I'd sell my girlfriends daughters favorite stuffed toy (Boots from Dora the Explorer 8O ) to get into the Alpha, and yes I am a (GalCiv II + expansions + TPM + Sins + Demigod) owner. Do want ELEMENTAL!!!

Thanks for the update Brad! :inlove:

I bet you are glad to be back in your comfort zone.  :beer:

Reply #84 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Ashain, reply 25
Heh, my point wasn't whether you like him or not, but that you'd know exactly who I was talking about. You and probably 95% of the people reading this i'd imagine

Yes, I know. Just that I cannot understand that fascination for that character. I can understand Drizzt's (early one at least), Darth Vader's, Wolverine's (exploited shamesly...),... but Sephirot??? At least it's not the worst character in a FF (like that one from FF IX...). Just imagine people traeting Jar Jar Binks as they treat now Sephirot and you'll get an idea of how I feel.8|

Reply #85 from Elemental Forums Top

As to the importance of story (since that is what this thread has evolved/devolved to);

When I first heard about the Fallen, the first thing I thought of was an old single player campaing game called Myth: The Fallen Lords. What a great game! Not only was it fun, but without having a TON of backstory in the manual, things unfolded thru the game to really make you feel the epic scope of the game.

Seeing as how there are only Men and the Fallen, I think a good amount of backstory is going to be a necessity to really differentiate the 12 factions. I want more than a 1 page fact sheet on each race - there needs to be enough to draw you in and see things through the CULTURE of that race - maybe the more creative of you are good at creating your own back story and motivations, I would prefer to have at least a good foundation presented, and of course my channeler will be a unique individual who may to varying degrees "buy into" his tribes perspective on life, the universe, and everything.

I also think somem in game story telling would be a huge plus. Especially pursuing the quest victory condition, I think there needs to be a fairly meaty story line - as you progress thru the sub quests there has GOT to be some historical significance for what you are doing, and this should progress from vague hints early in the quest line to long and detailed stories as you are searching for the final powerful artifacts regarding the creation of those artifacts and the history behind them. Research of spells should be more than the Galcivish descriptions as you went up the tech trees (although many of those were also incredibly funny and creative!)

Reply #86 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wintersong, reply 9

Just imagine people traeting Jar Jar Binks as they treat now Sephirot and you'll get an idea of how I feel.

Ugh, ok point taken, nothing killed Star Wars like the crap they added in the the last three movies.  I actually had a friends 10y/o kid trying to explain to me how all of his friends except one completely loved the new animated star wars cartoons.  Made my head hurt.

 

GW Swicord:  The games I was alluding to were FF7 (RPG), Starcraft (RTS) and the Halo series (console FPS) respectively.

Reply #87 from Elemental Forums Top

Story wise, I think following the SMAC style would be a good way to get the ball rolling.

Reply #88 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Thanaeon, reply 4
I'm heartened to see the maturity of the Elemental gamers' community. On almost any other game forum, I'd have expected to see a huge outcry, wailing and gnashing of teeth over this, but you guys have taken it pretty coolly and calmly assessed the things you like and dislike about it. Kudos.

You are giving us too much credit.  The game is not even in Alpha yet.  At this point everything is on the drawing board.  If this change was announced in Beta people would be bitching up a storm.  Also the multiplayer bots were a very cool idea but I don't think that was a top issue for anyone other then Frogboy.

Sammual

Reply #89 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Ashain, reply 11
...GW Swicord:  The games I was alluding to were FF7 (RPG), Starcraft (RTS) and the Halo series (console FPS) respectively.

Heh. I actuall owned some holiday bundle of Starcraft and a couple of expansions. It was my last try at RTS and apparently the clickety-clickety kept me so distracted that I didn't notice any story content :-|

Reply #90 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting GW, reply 14

Heh. I actuall owned some holiday bundle of Starcraft and a couple of expansions. It was my last try at RTS and apparently the clickety-clickety kept me so distracted that I didn't notice any story content

Whaaa?  You didn't ever watch Kerrigan (the ghost) get turned into the Zerg Queen?  Which was the whole point behind the Brood wars expansion (which I think came with the bundle)?

Reply #91 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sammual, reply 13

You are giving us too much credit.  The game is not even in Alpha yet.  At this point everything is on the drawing board.  If this change was announced in Beta people would be bitching up a storm.  Also the multiplayer bots were a very cool idea but I don't think that was a top issue for anyone other then Frogboy.

Sammual

I don't think so. The community at this stage is people with a real interest in the game. It's a small group that in a lot of cases already know each other from other Stardock games. The type of game also has something to do with it, complex TBS games don't draw the same crowd that something like Demigod does (ugh, demigod forums post release).

Try not to sell this group too short. There are a lot of communities that would flip at a delay notice, even at this stage and even when nothing was actually promised in the first place. The maturity level shown here is a positive. :)

Reply #92 from Elemental Forums Top

[...]
That said, here are a few things that multiplayer in Elemental will have:
1. Multiplayer games will be hosted by us. Period. No peer to peer. Not even hosted on the user’s box. Our servers. No ports, no proxies, nothing. We’re hosting it.
[...]
Oh my god. This is Hellgate: London all over again.

I can't convey how this absolutely killed E:WoM for me, just now. Completely.
I no longer harbor any hope whatsoever for this game.

Reply #93 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 17
Oh my god. This is Hellgate: London all over again.
I can't convey how this absolutely killed E:WoM for me, just now. Completely.
I no longer harbor any hope whatsoever for this game.
What?

 

:fox:

Reply #94 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kitkun, reply 18

Quoting Luckmann, reply 17Oh my god. This is Hellgate: London all over again.
I can't convey how this absolutely killed E:WoM for me, just now. Completely.
I no longer harbor any hope whatsoever for this game.What?
No peer-to-peer or TCP/IP functions completely kills multiplayer and long-term, post-Stardock gaming. It reinforces the notion that this is somehow the best of worlds, and that Oceania have always been at war with Euroasia - and will always be at war with Euroasia.

Things change. In 10 or maybe 20 years time, chances are that support for E:WoM have completely ceased. Chances are that Stardock, as it is, doesn't even exist anymore. No Stardock, no support, no servers. 10 years time isn't awfully much to those of us that have lived above 20, when you kinda start to realize that time starts flowing faster.

Master of Magic was released in 1994. While it didn't have multiplayer, a lot of people still play it. That's 15 years. On average, how many game developers and/or publishers remain static for such a long time? Let alone active support for a small, by that time remote-fringe game.

Will I be able to find the game on a shelf somewhere, go "Oh, Elemental! That game ROCKED!" in 10, 20, 30 or 40 years time and, if I can get the game to run properly on Windows X29-B, expect the servers to still be functional? No. Of course not. What I could have done is what I do relatively frequently (relatively, being the key word) with, say, Diablo 2 - get one of my friends to install it and just play around for a bit, hell, maybe even cheat our arses off for no real good reason, or maybe just give ourselves those there extra skill points that you give yourself to put in skills "just for kicks", with no serious investment.

That example is somewhat mootified by the fact that Blizzard still have active support for the Diablo II servers, but the point still stands. Allowing peer-to-peer connection and "dedicated server"-programs is the way to go. Not some "Achtung, play at our servers or bust". Which also happened to be one of the reasons Hellgate tanked, due to it's schitzophrenic nature and position on multiplayer.

Reply #95 from Elemental Forums Top

Luckmann - I think your trepidation is based on the assumption that Stardock will up and fold like Hellgate's publishers.  While always theoretically possible, I don't think it's very likely.  Stardock's entire business model is built around providing free content after release; Hellgate had no revenue plan post-release, and thus couldn't support an ever-increasing resource load with an ever-dwindling supply of capital.

Reply #96 from Demigod Forums Top

Not to mention that Stardock isn't primarily a game publisher/developer. Their application side brings in the bulk of the revenue.

 

:fox:

Reply #97 from Elemental Forums Top

It's perhaps a bit off-color to speculate on their forums, but I half-wonder if Brad just does the games for fun at this point.  I'm fairly sure GalCiv et. al are profitable, but the real bread and butter has to come from stuff like licensing ObjectDock to Dell.

Reply #98 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Luckmann, reply 19

Things change. In 10 or maybe 20 years time, chances are that support for E:WoM have completely ceased. Chances are that Stardock, as it is, doesn't even exist anymore. No Stardock, no support, no servers. 10 years time isn't awfully much to those of us that have lived above 20, when you kinda start to realize that time starts flowing faster.

Master of Magic was released in 1994. While it didn't have multiplayer, a lot of people still play it. That's 15 years. On average, how many game developers and/or publishers remain static for such a long time? Let alone active support for a small, by that time remote-fringe game.

Will I be able to find the game on a shelf somewhere, go "Oh, Elemental! That game ROCKED!" in 10, 20, 30 or 40 years time and, if I can get the game to run properly on Windows X29-B, expect the servers to still be functional? No. Of course not. What I could have done is what I do relatively frequently (relatively, being the key word) with, say, Diablo 2 - get one of my friends to install it and just play around for a bit, hell, maybe even cheat our arses off for no real good reason, or maybe just give ourselves those there extra skill points that you give yourself to put in skills "just for kicks", with no serious investment.

That example is somewhat mootified by the fact that Blizzard still have active support for the Diablo II servers, but the point still stands. Allowing peer-to-peer connection and "dedicated server"-programs is the way to go. Not some "Achtung, play at our servers or bust". Which also happened to be one of the reasons Hellgate tanked, due to it's schitzophrenic nature and position on multiplayer.

This is a very personal topic. As a future EWoM player, I prefer Stardock taking the path that offers them less problems (they spend less man-hours on it) so they can do many other things, even if that means that in 10 years I won't be able to play EWoM in MP.

Reply #99 from Elemental Forums Top

@Luckmann - I would not sweat the control thing much. I would be willing to bet that if SD was going to fold, Frogboy would - at the very least - release server side software for the community and at best rework the game for p2p.

Reply #100 from Elemental Forums Top

Luckman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_Frontier

A Stardock game from 1997 that can no longer be purchased, but just got a server update a few months ago. And trust us, if fo some crazy reason we go bust, we'd put the server side code out for anyone to use.