About masochistic 1.04.59

Yes they no longer give money.
However, it is now possible to trade for Defense Theory, although Deflectors is insanely expensive.
I found out it was possible to trade techs with the Alexians quite effectively, and the Carinoids (although they seem to have less techs in my games). The majors usually have all the techs I have so I can't trade with them, except maybe by researching techs they don't look for early, like Battle Armor instead, and sometimes one Theory tech if you meet them fast enough.

I noticed this too, I can't even get 10 credits for most techs from the incredible AIs.

I do what LDiCesare mentioned: research the techs that the AI doesn't go for immediately (Interstellar Refining, Battle Armor, Reinforced Hulls, Defensive Phasers, and all the Repair stuff) ... then I hoard them until I notice one of the AIs has researched it, and then try to trade it off to all the others for something good ... sometimes if I'm lucky (and I have been in the past couple of games), one of the enemy AIs will initiate a tech trade offer that I can't refuse (like giving me Battleship Technology for Reinforced Hulls)

Agreed. I also now jealously hoard my diplomatic-bonus techs, since it's now impossible to beat the AI to Dip Translators at Maso. Nothing like hearing from the Alexians that they consider you culturally barbarian!

Of course, given that, it serves as appropriate justification for going Genghiz on them as soon as I can. Nothing like a free +40PQ planet!

~SDC~

What exactly are the bonuses that the AI receives on Incredible? I just started playing maso and I want to know what I'm up against. There's a big econ/production bonus, but what specifically is it? And there's a big PQ bonus, but how big? And the AIs are obviously a pain in the butt when it comes to trading. Is there anything else?
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Yar, finally had to give up on Maso, back to crippling. Staffa, looks like most civs now will not give up their $$ if they can avoid it. With .59 trading techs seems a bit more reasonable to me. I'm mainly working trade now, get it fast and max it out if I can. Also giving myself high research bonuses so I can sort of keep up with the AI while still building stuff. Bye bye PQ bonus!

Scott

Yea, this goes along with what I have noticed, tech
trading is easier for the most part, but getting
money is down right impossible beyond 5-10 credits.

I miss my alexians money whore:(

vincible,

You can find out for yourself and do all of us maso players a favour. Pour money into espionage in the early game for all the AIs. You should be able to detect a pattern as to which are bonuses from maso and which are from techs/racial picks/TGs.
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Heh, that sounds like work. I was hoping Brad would just tell us.

I might not keep playing maso anyway. I feel like in order to have a chance I have to viciously exploit any AI flaws that I can find--tech trading for example--which makes me focus on the fact that I'm playing against a bunch of dumb computer programs rather than letting myself get caught up in the quest to wrest control of the galaxy from hostile alien empires. It's just not as fun to me. My hope is that this will get better after I improve some more. A lot more
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Yes, Ellestar feels the same way as you. He calls Maso the Cheese level, designed to sieve out cheesy strats.

You are not alone in feeling that Maso is losing its appeal to players looking for a challenge. I'm hoping to persevere till I complete at least one game on all maps.

I feel the same, too. I keep trying because I hate losing, but I'm going to go down a notch to enjoy the game. The problem is my crippling game was piece of cake, so I hope the additional level of difficulty SD will provide in the XPack will allow us to play something harder than crippling but not impossible-without-resorting-to-cheese.

Personally, I felt the previous Maso difficulty level was alright and a good step up from Crippling.

The current Maso is probably a better Nightmare level.

From espionage in my current game, I can see that the Incredible AI has a +30% PQ bonus. Can't be sure about other traits as I am at the mid-late stage of my game. Surprising, I'm having fun with my current Maso/Large game. I'm scrambling like crazy to catch up with the AIs. But I don't think I've ever had a game with such a pace. Avatars researched by Arceans in about 8 years, Overlords by 10.
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Thanks for "researching" the correct PQ bonus, Ray. +30 indeed it is.

Agree with your recommendation re: "Nightmare" level. I am (barely) surviving at my current Maso game, but believe I too will drop back to Crippling. The pace of tech discovery is overwhelming - AI Excaliburs are cruising around in bulk ca. 2189-90 (11-12 years)!

A rather depressing thought when you've just deployed your first Avatar

~SDC~

Yeah, I started playing 1.04 Maso from Tiny map and now at Large.

Can't imagine how Gigantic will go. Probably Overlords while I'm still at frigates.

Large maso is a good challange, but doable
Gigantic maso is a long challange, but not bad.

Huge maso is a bitch, i cant seem to beat it.

Grr, antoher large or 2 and on to medium!

On maso, so far the only way I can have a chance to win is on the larger maps with rare planets. It buys me time to build up tech in my distant corner until I have a colonized every possible planet in my area. Then later I randomly deploy the freighters to establish trade with whom ever I can find.

I can't seem to win the arms race though. And because of that, war always happens. Even if it doesn't make it to my sectors for awhile, it knowcks out my trade, income, and economy.

I'm also finding that I have a better chance with rare habitable planets as opposed to abundant. Abundant gives the AI more PQ to work with.

I know it's cheesy, but the maso win to me seems easier when I control 3-6 planets with PQ 15-20 to start...and the AI usually getting the same amount of planets but with PQ 19-22 to start. It's a difference I can survive with.