Elemental too Revolutionary?

Well I'm willing to take the risk Shoot for the moon guys! I think the important thing is that the devs don't get forced too rigidly into a set release date and really stick to only releasing the game when they're completely happy with it. Now that may mean extra months, quarters, maybe even years of beta testing and tweaking, but given that they're committed to that I say try to make something that's a spectacular step forward rather than an unremarkable yet solid game. It's been 15 years since MoM so at this point I'm willing to wait as long as it takes to create something truly worthy of being called its successor.

Elemental too revolutionary? Na, things go down in history for being new and great. Complexity is good when you don't have to mess with it if you don't want to. Pretty much everything except making war and expanding your empire will be able to be turned to AI control.

And besides, Stardock hasn't let us down yet!

Just remember, when a game company gets too conservative, they go the way of EA. Hated, profits going down, and EVIL.

I think Stardock should aim for the moon. If any of their ideas end up really being too complex, it'll be discovered during beta. From there they can try to better automate it or, if necessary, cut out or simplify the problem features. I know that cutting out features isn't merely as easy as deleting a chunk of code, but it is much easier to remove features than it is to add them, from my programming experience (not at all related to gaming, though).

MoM was good because it was revolutionary. Well, it stole from a bunch of places, but the combination was certainly revolutionary. Race interactions, the spell system, and even the combat system was beyond other 4X games. GalCiv, in many ways, broke some of the mold with individually modelled ships on the entire map. Unlike Moo where ships moved as a big block between arbitrary warp points.

I keep seeing you and NTJedi starting to go "Whoa, hold on, just make a better clone of game X". I really don't think that's the way to go unless you're actually creating MoM II or Moo V or some such sequel.

the scope of Elemental is certainly something else.   (I was just making a post about graphical scope of ewam involving the notion of zooming in to the point that leaves are apparent)

Now is the time to take risks I guess.  I mean this game is turning to be something really worth buying.  Right now the US is going through a poor economic state, so it would be best to ensure whatever product turned out is one that will have a shelf life through until the next economic up-turn (or just is so awesome it gets good sales off the bat anyway)

So like Jonny says, shoot for the moon.  Its the time to take risks.  I will do everything I can to ensure that this game is a success, because I MoM with multiplayer.  MoM leaves pretty big shoes to fill, and Stardock wants to go beyond that.  Stardock is I think the best company to maket his game right now.  No other company do I trust to create a high quality product and still adhear to the desires (within reason) of the fans/users.    I think they can do it which is why I'm here trolling this forum ^_^  So provided that stardock continues to hold their high level of quality, and we are able to give the feedback they need, I *know* that Elemental: War of Magic will be amazing.

 With proper user-feedback I think we will be able to help stardock deliver both a very complex game, but streamlined for multiplayer as well.

 

 

Off the record, I want to create a mod once this game hits market to make an even more exact copy of MoM the way an official company cannot (for a number of reasons).  We'll have to see where I am when that comes about (since I need to get a real job in the games industry, and that may put me in a position where I can't just create random fan-work for other games. But I want to try).   So for those super fanboys (myself not excluded) that just want MoM with pretty graphics and multiplayer option without any fancy-smancy new ideas, and with the old classic klackons, trolls, or whatever.

who's to say that there won't be an MOM2 in addition to E-WOM?  who knows, perhaps a company like 1C has already bought the rights and is working on a true MOM sequel as we speak?  i for one would be ecstatic to have both!

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/20/standing-on-the-shoulders-of-giants/

 

 

 

Last I checked 1C is working on a fantasy wars sequel.   I mean maybe, but it seems unlikely.  But I do like to hope.

Personally I have more faith in E:WoM than I do anything by atari right now, but *shrug*

Oh yeah and something I forgot in my previous post, which I think Landi alluded to in his post referencing the economy; I think SD's business model kinda relies on producing ground breaking titles to work. The reason for this is that to be truly successful and expand as a company it's important to find as much of a market as possible, and that means not only satisfying fans of a particular genre but reaching out from there as well. Now given that they clearly have a limited marketting budget in comparison to many of the giants of the industry this relies primarily on word of mouth and mind blowing review scores.. both of which can only really be accomplished by a game that is a cut above what is already out there. An unambitious, yet solid, effort may well satisfy the people that will buy every TBS game that comes out... but ideally SD will want more people than that to invest in their game, and that's potentially the reward they'll get for taking risks and trying to create something truly ground breaking.

 

"1C: Ino-Co (the official new company name) is working on the sequel to Fantasy Wars called Elven Legacy. This game is scheduled for a 2008 release. 1C: Ino-Co has also started working on two undisclosed projects based on world class IPs."

 

the 1st undisclosed project was confirmed to be Majesty 2 and since Majesty was a Hasbro title, the article link i posted suggests that the 2nd one might also be an old atari/hasbro/microprose license like MOM.

 

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/1c-ino-co-starts-development-of-2-new-projects

Always best to aim high. If something winds up not working out they can decide to cut it down or scrap it, but you can't really decide later that you really meant to make something more complex.

Overall, I appreciate ambitious dev plans and the idea that one way to improve is to reach larger audiences. But I do not want Stardock to end up making fast-food games a-la EA. I'm not seriously worried that this will start happening, *unless* I let myself pay too much attention to the multiplayer talk about Elemental.

The content-sharing plans do sound usefully revolutionary to me, or at least like a major improvement over the mods library for GC2. On the other hand, I believe that too much influence from multiplayer concerns would be, ahem, counter-revoloutionary. Elemental could be the game that gets me into regular online multiplayer stuff, but that will be an unexpected pleasure if it happens. Seeing the core, single-player game stunted or mutilated in the name of MP-proofing would be a great disappointment. (Yes, I'm still scared by this mysterious "continous turn-based" thing. I gave up RTS titles ages ago and I don't miss them.)

I have mentioned in the past that the game I want most is MoM II.  The only two companies I would be happy to see make it would be Stardock or Blizzard.  I think this is the first time I have ever even hinted at a negative reation to Elemental.  As long as the game is fun I will be happy.  The closer to the feel and magic of MoM that Elemental has to happier I will be.  If we can mod Elemental into a MoM II, I will be thrilled.

Sammual

All hail the frog! 

Indeed, and I did not mean to imply that the game should head in a more mainstream direction, merely that it should be just a brilliant 4x TBS.. one so good, and with review scores to match, that people who don't usually play that sort of game will think "This is getting so much critical acclaim it MUST be amazing" and as a result check it out.. much as has been the case with GC2 and SOASE. If you create a game good enough you will expand the market without having to jeopardise the vision behind the game to go chasing that market (which is ultimately counter productive as you end up with a game noone actually likes ).

 
I have the opposite view.  I want a slight improvement over MoM /AoW to play right now.  It will keep me happy for a year or two while they expand the game I am playing into the huge world changing spectacular step forward.
 

 
It has been forever since MoM.  I am willing to wait as long as it takes to get a successor as well but I am beginning to think that Elemental might not be it.  Elemental is sounding so different then MoM, so much it's own game that calling it a successor to MoM might not be right.  MoM was a simple CIV clone with Magic and Tactical combat.  It is looking more and more like Elemental will be anything but simple.

I can’t wait to see what Elemental turns out to be.  I will be following the development of this game as closely as possible without access to Stardocks offices.  I will do my best to help the only way I can, by offering suggestions, raising questions, and attempting to get more people to do the same.

Sammual
All hail the frog!

In my opinion, my impression of Elemental is that it does not promise to be a revolutionary game.  It's aiming straight for the mainstream.  It's grid-based, and the production method is a simpler approach than the usual production points.  The research and magical spells are quite simple ideas.  The setting is for an accessable fantasy world, rather than something more esoteric.  Aiming for simple, appealing mechanics is a good way to sell a lot of product, as is picking and choosing what mechanics contribute to the game, rather than including every new thing for little purpose.  Quite frankly, elemental seems simple, and it definately has the potential to be entertaining while remaining accessable.  It might even be deep.

On second though, that may be revolutionary, but not in such a way that it could be "Too revolutionary".  My personal opinion is that Stardock has been quite conservative, maybe even too conservative, settling for creating quality mainstream products, and their sales numbers seem to back that up.

Mind you, my dream game would be a roguelike with detailed body simulation, a procedurally generated gameplay world including random creatures, storylines, terrain, civilizations, magic, and so forth, so maybe I've got a strange definition of conservative.  Can you imagine firing up your roguelike and finding out that you're an escaped slave that is a member of a civilization of sapient comorants, living on a geologically active, metal-poor world, out to build an army to lead your tribe to a new home on the other side of a huge mountain range, all while knowing that you'll need to cross the territory of the planesmen, who ride horses and wield mighty air magics, as well as command fearsome groups of magical giant eagles?

What world have you been living in? The production method appears to be significantly more complex than the usual approach. The usual approach is, all buildings and units are worth a certain number of units of 'production', and each city/planet makes a certain number of units of production per turn. Once the city/planet stockpiles enough units of production, the building/unit gets built. AoW2 had a different method but equally simple - an upfront cost and a certain number of turns to build. It appears to me as if you have not read these threads.

I would love that, it'd be incredible. And I think Stardock would love to make a game like that. The problem is that I don't think anyone, anywhere, is capable of making a game like that, at least not without a billion dollar grant from the US Government or something. Procedurally generation is difficult to say the least - and procedurally generating well-done storylines, civilizations, magic and so forth well enough to be mistaken for being created by people has never been done, to my knowledge. So considering that your definition of conservative appears to be anything that doesn't accomplish the impossible given modern technology and programming (and budgets), well... yeah that's pretty strange

 Seems simple enough to me.. make items, give them to people, train the people.  Assemble groups into larger armies.  There might be a lot of complicated relationships at work, but it isn't rocket science. It's a very simple, intuitive, process, that should be absolutely smashing.  Compare it to, say, someone in Civ IV who is building trained units with the intention of abusing the experience and upgrade systems to create city raider Grenadiers, or someone in Civ II who would IRB units one row of shields at a time to save on costs.  Or Galciv II, with the military and social production along with the research, each costing one gold, adjusted for bonuses, local focus, and using rates set globally.  It wasn't that hard, but can you really say the system didn't lack something?

 

And don't mock my dream.   I can't think of an individual step that would be truly impossible, especially with no graphics.  Of course, it would be a pretty hard sell for a Roguelike as a commercial game, but there has been a bit of a breath of air for them from mobile systems lately.

Is anyone else reading from latest FireFox and seeing the table formatting die in the middle of Sammual's reply 14? This does not seem to be an instance of the FF bug re very long pages, and I get no display changes even when I reduce zoom well below 100.

Well we're more or less at an agreement, other than semantics, I think. I think that the proposed system for Elemental is more complex than usual (sliding a couple bars around != complexity), but because it's also so much more intuitive the complexity is very easily dealt with. And yeah on the surface it's, "make items, give them to people, train the people," but the production process includes how to make those items, and the fact that those items need to be moved between cities. Hopefully Stardock will be able to automate that particular procedure or it would get very messy very fast.
 

Mock your dream? I share your dream! I would cut you in line to buy your dream game I just don't think it's realistic yet, maybe in 5-10 years something like it could be done.

Yip same here GW.. is very annoying

The devs can promise what they're delivering... no doubt in my mind. The problem I see is the aggresive time table. As the OP mentioned, this aims to be a revolutionary game which sounds quite complex from a programming stand point. It's hard to imagine there tenatively releasing the game next year when concepts/features are explained through pen&paper as opposed to screenshots. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with whatever happens so long as I'm presented with a polished game. I'm just trying not to get my hopes up and believe this game will be out in the time frame their shooting for. Just my 2 cents...

 

Same problem here.

Well, for one its much easier to explain a process via a nice pen & paper flow chart that by sticking up a bunch of screenshots. Another thing is that they might just not be at a stage where everything is connected. They still have close to a year before their projected release data, which includes 8+ months of beta (meaning they get to outsource mot of their testing). I'm not really worried - but I also don't expect Stardock to meet their projected release data, either.

My 2 cents ahhh WE WILL BETA TEST THIS THINK TO DEATH! So I think it will be a great game.... wait what the hell the sites seems to be having some problems ahhhh UI is going a little crazy...

I think Stardock has a pretty good idea of what they can and can't implement with Elemental. You have to remember for all the features we know about that are planned there was probably twice as many that were cut because they couldn't be completed in an effective manner. Also, keep in mind that Stardock still has approximately 11 months before Elemental even ships and that is assuming they don't delay it. In closing, I’m not that worried about exceeding their theoretical capacity for complexity. 

I for one support them being "Too Revolutionary", and I've showed this by already submitting a preorder.  Considering how far into development they are on this game, I'm fairly certain that at one point it was even more Revolutionary and has been trimmed down alot. Could Stardock miss the target on this one? Of course, thats always the risk, especially when you are trying to do something as ambitious as EWoM is trying to be.  But risks are apart of being a buisness, and honestly, if you think you can make something great, different and unique, why settle for something thats been done before.