You've hit the nail on the head for my objection. First, in my understanding of 'real world physics,' there's no serious biology, much less psychology or parapsychology--compared to the particle accelerator crowd, all that other stuff is soft science at best and often outright faux science. Second, it ain't really magic if there's no possibility of a Lovecraftian Colour from Space. I like many of the details you raise in this sort of discussion, but the sum total just feels like a straightjacket that would leave Elemental in some kind of sub-niche for space opera fans who occasionally flirt with epic fantasy.

I'm not seriously trying to lobby for the chain-o-clashing-effects sort of spell that Darkodinplus described in reply 48. I want a system that might actually be able to model something that silly, but I'd expect both the 'cannon' skin and all the leading player content communities to enforce some sort of coherent world view. Basically, I want the underlying rules to be 'non-linear' and the skins to be 'linear' (although I don't quite agree with the choice of adjective there--seems more like (flexible) open vs. (rigid) structured to me, but that's probably another thread entirely).

Edit: P.S. to the OP: apologies for my part in the somewhat extreme threadjacking here. At least I'm not the only one who, when I get going, well...

Well the example I used was purely an example and nothing more I'm obviously not a developer so I wouldn't be making the rules, I thought that specific example just demonstrated the difference in opinion here on the boards pretty well. I personally think the specific linear magic system would be more fun but that’s just me. As for fire and ice I take it you never tried mixing something extremely hot and something extremely cold if you had you’d know they explode when they come in contact. I wouldn’t mind if the same principle was applied to magic if you throw a fireball at someone and they throw an ice bolt at you lets pretend the fireball is as hot as the ice bolt is cold if they collided they would cancel each other out and explode analogous to matter and anti-matter. 

@ GW Swicord:

Flexible (open) vs Rigid (structured) is the same argument that I was trying to make less casually . I am interested to know however what you think would be a fair requirement to cast an off the wall crazy spell that might not be allowed in a more structured (linear) magic system? 

If both players can agree to a mutual level of insanity, anything goes.

Apologies, but I must start with a terms-quibble: I wasn't at all trying to be casual, although I might have been too terse. I also don't have deep familiarity with that many different tabletop RPGs or PC civ games because I'm very picky and don't bother remembering much about why I put down a given title. That leaves me basically trying to be a Big Abstraction heckler when the folks with 'rules lawyer' potential get going with their detailed proposals (which I like reading, please don't stop 'em).

Now, for your direct question, I actually have no idea whether a "fair requirement" is even possible, but I surely hope that the costs would be at least as ridiculous as the results (I'd support additional penalties just for being ridiculous). And I'd certainly never want a spell like that to be included in my instance of Elemental, so here's hoping for permanant per-item blocks for content sharing.

I guess I'm trying to be a bit of a devil's advocate. I've played this kind of game since before I ran Windows every day, and I've never cared about multiplayer and barely ever cared about modding. But I suspect that Elemental might be able to change my mind. And part of why I think that is because I've come to understand that a major part of GalCiv2's market success is that it is flexible enough to engage a very wide range of player interests, even if you ignore mods and the Metaverse. Plus, I have some half-informed ideas that a Hero System-style approach will work better with object-oriented software design than a fixed spell list approach, at least in terms of making both modding and expansion packs easier.

See, this is one of my problems with your physics-based approach. No matter how hard you try to make magic work with physics, I will be able to find some point where it breaks down. Because ultimately, magic and physics are fundamentally incompatible. And for the twentieth time, you don't need to involve physics in the magic system at all in order to prevent ludicrous scenarios like snowballs exploding people into mushroom clouds of kittens. 

I sincerely believe that trying to work physics into the magic system will only result in a needlessly complex and overly limiting system; when instead we should be aiming for as simple/intuitive a system as we can while still allowing for extreme flexibility. I mean, even your own example of a spell-creation system with your crazy fruit-throwing watermelon-rain causing madman - that has nothing to do with physics. Instead there are a much of spell types and effects that can be combined in various ways to create a huge permutation of possible spells.

No teleportation, for one (though you could argue that speed-of-light travel would be sufficient - unless you're trapped - plus think of the shockwaves you'd cause). No time-pausing or time-slowing effects either - at least not without destroying the world with extreme gravitational forces or moving at relativistic speeds. There are plenty of things you can't do regardless of how much energy you have at your fingertips. Conservation laws would still have to be satisfied, for example - charge conservation would severely limit what you could do with sparks or lightning without jumping through all sorts of hoops to keep things balanced. 

I'm in favor of the system being capable of handling 'non-linearity' (although I don't think that term accurately describes it). I think it's safe to say that SD wouldn't ship the game with crazy ludicrous spells like your example. But summoning a storm over enemy troops should be able to both strike them directly (hail or lightning for example) and also slow them down, maybe even weaken them. Could also be fun to be able to throw a giant fireball into enemy ranks which then turns into a fire elemental. Those scenarios aren't ridiculous but don't fall under your 'linear' approach.

Now, if we are going to be able to actually create our own spells during the game then I think there would need to be some serious penalties or limitations so that crazy spells like your example won't be practical.

We definitely need to be able to combine elements. I'll be really disappointed if there aren't multi-school spells - lots of them. It doesn't matter that bringing very hot in contact with very cold results in boom. We're talking about schools of magic, mixing schools shouldn't result in ice fireballs or whatever. If you've read any of the Wheel of Time, it should be kind of like the 'magic' works there. For example maybe you can boil away a river by applying a combination of water and fire magic. It could be possible to do it with fire alone, but more efficient if you use both. I'm sure people more creative and/or more awake than I am can come up with better examples.

Swicord, it seems like you and I have very similar hopes of what the magic system will be like. Now, what I really hope is that SD surprises us with a system that blows all of our expectations of a reasonable system out of the water!

Using the rules I just made up as an example I concede you wouldn’t be able to make that spell despite it being reasonable but with a bit of imagination you could easily make a spell with the same net effect under my proposed system. Instead of throwing a fireball and it turning into a fire elemental, you could have a summon fire elemental spell that explodes in a burst of flames damaging near by enemies when it is cast. Same effect different order, I hadn’t really intended for anyone to take those rules too seriously. 

Notice I said two or more I believe it has been mentioned there would be opposing schools of magic in elemental and it would stand to reason that you couldn’t mix opposing magics. For example my fire and ice situation but this also introduces the possibility of complementary schools of magic which is why I specifically said in my example you could mix 2 forms of magic if they aren’t opposites. The situation I was hoping to allow in my linear magic system by doing this was for instance my Channeler combines a Blaze spell (fire magic) and Tornado spell (air magic) resulting in a Blazing Tornado spell (fire + air magic) which would be complementary. Another example would be combining a Landside spell (earth magic) and Tidal Wave spell (water magic) to make a Mud Avalanche spell (earth + water magic). 

Edit: Don't use google spellcheck! It messes with the post formatting!

[quote who="pigeonpigeon" reply="5" id="1987358"]I sincerely believe that trying to work physics into the magic system will only result in a needlessly complex and overly limiting system; when instead we should be aiming for as simple/intuitive a system as we can while still allowing for extreme flexibility.[/quote]

Okay forget physics then, that was simply the most convenient example at the time. The only requirement for magic in a game setting is that it makes sense. We don't need to understand how it works, in fact that is the whole point of magic. What is important is that when magic is used and things happen, we understand what is going on and why.

Physics is simply the best way to explain things. Fruit of the Loon  is a strange spell, but you all understand what a coconut is and what will happen when that coconut falls on your head from cloud level. I don't have to explain the exact difference between a shower of tomatos and a shower of watermelons, its already obvious that one will go splat and the other will probably kill you.

[quote who="pigeonpigeon" reply="5" id="1987358"]No teleportation, for one[/quote]

Imaginary physics can still be consistent. Teleportation means travelling from one place to another without any movement in between. It doesn't mean anything else and can't be confused for anything else. I forgot who said it but any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Current technology can't prove that teleportation is possible, but then we can't prove it to be impossible either.

[quote who="pigeonpigeon" reply="5" id="1987358"]We definitely need to be able to combine elements. I'll be really disappointed if there aren't multi-school spells - lots of them. It doesn't matter that bringing very hot in contact with very cold results in boom. We're talking about schools of magic, mixing schools shouldn't result in ice fireballs or whatever.[/quote]

I have a diagram sitting on my desk which I am using to try to imagine categories of magic. Each category is part of an opposing pair, these pairs complement each other because they can't exist at the same time. The current pairs are:

• Fire - Ice
• Chaos - Order
• Air - Earth
• Time - Stasis
• Nature - Technology
• Life - Death

Some of them are obvious enough such as Fire and Ice. You can't set a block of plain ice on fire just as you can't freeze flames solid. Others are a bit more complicated. Nature for example opposes Technology because technology would never exist in a natural setting. The computer you are using to read this right now is not a natural object, without a thinking mind to create it the computer might never have existed. Each category has subcomponents. Here I am still trying to wrangle the specifics. Fire for example encompasses Fire, Heat and Light. Ice as its opposite is made up of Ice Cold and Shadow. Some of them are a bit more abstract, Air for example is also Weather and Flight, Time is also Speed and Entrophy.

Spells can be composed of one component alone, or a mix of more than one. A fireball spell for example is a mix of Fire and Air. Fire for flame and heat, Air for flight. If you mixed Earth with Fire, you could make a tunneling fireball, imagine that Even polar opposites can be combined. What happens when you mix Life and Death together and they cancel out? Immortality.

To give you a more exotic example let me pull something out of my thinking hat. What do you get when you combine Fire and Ice together? Coldfire.

• Coldfire is a blue flame that acts just like regular fire only it freezes anything it touches and consumes heat instead of fuel. So getting burned to death by coldfire would turn you into an ice statue instead of a pile of ash.
  
• Instead of putting out light, coldfire actually consumes it and emits a tiny portion. Coldfire appears pitch black with dark blue edges. The "hotter" the fire burns the less black there will be and the blue edges will brighten towards white.
• Being a form of fire Coldfire still requires air to burn so you could still put it out with water (must be cold water) or a blanket. As well it will only "ignite" things with a sufficient level of heat. Casting it on a block of ice would do nothing. Casting it on a hot tub would result in a small skating rink.
• Just as normal fire can be drowned by too much fuel, coldfire can be put out with overwhelming amounts of heat and will not ignite in the presence of too much heat.

The limitations of it make it very hard to employ, its essentially as opposite from fire as you can get without it becoming something else. But the implications of its abilities are terrifying. Imagine a coldforest fire blazing out of control at midnight in the middle of summer.

It's so satisfying to finally come to complete understanding and agreement after a lengthy debate

You're right, technology can't prove teleportation impossible. But unless literally everything we know is completely and utterly wrong then theoretical physics tells us that it isn't possible in the strictest sense of teleportation. One of the most fundamental tenets of modern physics is that information cannot be transmitted faster than the speed of light. If information is in one place one moment and in another place the next, then that rule is violated. Similarly if you take teleportation to be winking out of existence in one place and into existence in another place some time later, then you've violated energy conservation beyond what the Heisenberg principle allows (not to mention you'll probably temporarily break other conservation laws like charge conservation)

I was counting on you coming up with a better example than my own! And I like the idea that the elements represent certain aspects of the world, not just fire magic being pyromancy, or just the control of heat. I'm also hoping that the devs don't make water-fire and air-earth "opposites." I've never liked that model. If water magic is used whenever your goal involves some form of liquidity, and fire magic is used when the goal involves heating something or flames, then you could combine water and fire magic to create greek fire (essentially an ancient version of napalm), or even thermite - essentially liquid fire that is difficult/impossible to extinguish with water. With time and thought I'm sure it's possible to come up with plenty more examples of how fire and water magic could be used together.

Remember when I said about broad discussion between people who don't agree with each other? This is a pretty good case in point. Once you DO start to agree with each other then don't let it end. You are on the right track.

Yeah, if you walked up to Technology and Magic and asked them to take you to the moon. Technology would say "tommorow?" and Magic would say "which one?"

I suspect we will have to bring this up for debate when and if we discover telepathy, though the advantage would not be apparent until you start using it over interstellar distances.

Technically thermite would require Earth instead of Air, its ingredients are all earth elements. All of the oxygen for the reaction comes from the thermite itself and because of this thermite can even burn underwater.

A couple off the top of my head:

• A meteor shower that pulls all of the heat out of the clouds resulting in a secondary hailstorm. (if you toned it down you could also use it to make rain)
• Casting a single spell on a lake freezes it and creates an ice elemental and a fire elemental at the same time.
• A boiling water moat.
• Steam is evaporated water and ice, so anything involving steam also involves fire to some degree.

I wasn't aware that magic could improve teleportation according to our theoretical physics....   they just arn't compatible.

I say that if magic could improve teleportation, and technology can improve magic, then technology can improve teleportation.

I mean, anybody ever watch 'stargate'?  How about read the book 'tunnel to the stars'?  My 'research' says that teleportation and techonology go hand in hand.  Now spice that tunnel in the stars up with magic!   and wow, you have stargates powered on the souls of newborn children.... wait, no....    that is just MY stargates >_>;  

Howabout the game "doom" that used science to create teleporters that passed through hell itself.  Sounds like technology improving teleportation to me

When I was a little kid, I always thought the sequal to Master of Magic was going to be something like another planet full of modern technology people would open a gateway to the master of magic worlds, and then a war would result.  In this 'dream sequal' you could get tomes in technology, that would let you 'cast' things like 'attack satilight', 'air strike' and 'nuclear bomb' with summon units like 'tanks', 'observation probe', and 'magictech armor'.

Thats one reason why I listed Technology as a form of magic. When you think about it, if you don't understand how it works, it might as well be magic. If I was a DM for a game of dnd I could create a big box shaped device that lets you see inside your own ribcage, sounds like magic doesn't it? In the real world we call them X-ray machines and most people would never call it a magical device.

See I disagree. Technology isn't magic. Arthur C. Clarke's quote "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" does not say that technology is magic. There is still an inherent separation between the two. Technology is basically anything that can be done within the laws of physics - be they known or unknown. I think of magic as being any fictional force that doesn't abide by the laws of physics. The quote means that any technology that utilizes physics that we aren't aware of or don't understand will appear to be magic. Not that it is magic - after all, the people who created said technology surely understood the physics behind it.

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make. My point was that forcing magic to abide by the laws of physics won't work, and forcing it to abide by arbitrarily selected laws of physics, but not others, is both silly and counterproductive to making a good game. I don't know where you get the idea that magic and teleportation aren't compatible - teleportation spells are all over fantasy games and books.

And I say that technology cannot improve teleportation. So even if magic can improve technology and vice versa (which needn't be the case), it still can't improve teleportation. Not unless you're willing to allow magic to abide by its own set of physics-defying rules.

I hope you know that science fiction does not equal science. It's fiction - made up. Anybody can make up their own fictional laws of physics. All I'm saying is that based on some of the fundamental tenets of modern physics (which could be wrong, who knows), teleportation, among other things one might want in a fantasy game, might be wrong. 

The only difference between Magic and Technology is that any and all technology has a specific name. Magic is only ever magic until you give it a specific name.

I hope you know that magic is fiction (i.e. not science).

I swear you switch stances.  On one side you say

which sounds to me like magic can do whatever it wants since it doesn't abide by laws of physics.

Then you turn around and say

Like, isn't that what you just said we should do?

My point was that arguing science in a fastasy game is pointless and we should end it now.   teleportation only exists in fastasy, so saying technology can and cannot do for it makes no sense.    I don't see why technology couldn't improve teleportation, and you can't really argue it since there is no such thing as teleportation technology or any other kind of magic technology.  So the moment you introduce 'magic technology' then its just as possible for technology to improve one kind of magic as any other.   I mean, lets keep it very simple... all that you can do with technology is lets say...   store mana?    thats it... ok, now if you store mana in a contraption with a teleportation spell bound to it, then channel the mana for use by the teleportation spell... you just created a piece of technology that uses teleport without you actually having to spend your own mana, that is technology improving teleportation.   Plain and simple.  

If technology can improve any kind of magic, it can improve teleportation.

Yes I know. But it seemed to me like you cited science fiction books and TV shows to show that teleportation is indeed possible...

Yes. Honestly I don't know what I was trying to say there. The paragraph you're referring to makes no sense to me in retrospect . I plead the first! Actually, no - I plead sleep-deprivation induced temporary insanity.

Yeah I pretty much agree with you here. I just don't have the willpower to resist the urge to argue

That's actually nonsensical. It's like saying, "Time travel only exists in fantasy, so saying technology can and cannot do it makes no sense." When in reality, to the best of our knowledge time travel is physically impossible. We can say with very high confidence that technology cannot allow time travel and teleportation. Very high confidence, even if 99.999999%, still means we could be wrong - so we do have to keep that in mind. But at some point, for the sake of progress, you do have to draw a line - at least until something changes that confidence level.

Yeah I surrender. Especially considering magic is fictional, and so the relationship between magic and technology can be whatever the author wants it to be.