Elemental's persistent world

from JoeUser Forums

Elemental, like Galactic Civilizations, will have a very in-depth single player world.  In fact, in terms of the single player game, it will have a lot more "stuff" to it than GalCiv had (such as a virtual persistent single player opponent which we'll talk more as time goes on).

But it will be in multiplayer that we really hope to bring new fans to the genre.

I love multiplayer games. But I am not an advocate of them in terms of taking resources up from the single player game for most types of PC games.  That's because, as a practical matter, relatively few people play on-line.  Not because they can't but because it's just usually not worth the hassle.

Playing on-line can take a long time, it can be frustrating and it can often end up as a total waste because of dropouts, crashes, whatever.

To address this, Elemental is going to add some new multiplayer options that we think will really help expand the interest in multiplayer.

One of those options is the persistent world: Empire vs. Kingdom.  In it, players choose a side - The Empire or The Kingdom.  Having chosen that, players then play on-line with various other players who are trying to help their side - The Empire or The Kingdom conquer the world of Elemental.  Each battle takes place on a tiny part of the overall world of Elemental.  Their opponents and friends are a mixture of real users and AI users based on what is necessary.

The AI work in Elemental is a little bit beyond what we've done before.  We are aiming to provide virtual AI players who are competing in the game like a real player would.  These virtual AI players would be able to join games (if no one else is available, real people get first dibs on joining games) and would play much like real people do (GalCiv players have an idea of what we mean).

Part of my work, as the AI developer at Stardock, would be to create lots of these virtual players, each with their own personalities and strategies, so that they're prepared to join up in games and provide varying degrees of a challenge to human players.

The idea here is to let people be able to get into games on-line and play without a lot of hassle remembering that this is an additional option to the other multiplayer modes available.

We'll be talking more in the future about how the Kingdom vs. Empire persistent multiplayer experience works later.

73,717 views 25 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

So...does this mean we won't have multiplayer save and resume capability (as I, and I believe others, initially thought would be the case)?  Or is this just an extension of the whole persistence idea?

Not to say that this isn't great-it is.  I'm just feeling a little confused.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

As a big fan of multiplayer, and an avid MMORPG gamer, I can't wait to find out how multiplayer in Elemental works.

My favorite part about these games is playing them side by side with me wife, either over our lan matches against computer opponents, or online against other players ; that's a big reason why both of us were dissapointed with GalCiv 1 & 2, but why we're both extremely excited about Elementals. Hopefully the multiplayer aspect turns out well ; I think it'd do wonders for the longevity of the game, and for detering piracy.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm glad a game studio has clued in (or rather, has continuously been clued in) to the single player market. Also love the serious work you and the rest of your team put into AI as a result.

I'm curious - would you be able to use the computer's AI to create a hint system for newbie players? I love 4x games but frankly suck at them. It would cool to see the AI offer hints as to what you should do on your turn and some small explanation.

looking very forward to 2010,

Grok

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

The strength of the AI in single player is still the key then, to both single player, and this "either mulitple AI or people" form of multiplayer. Schedule lots of your time for working on improved AI routines :)  

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm of the opinion that such a system would be a value added enhancement to the game if done in a methodical and detail oriented capacity and correctly implemented on top of the base game. Otherwise it might prove to be a misuse of limited resources available for the development for the franchise. It might be something I would consider for the first x-pack to be honest.

Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top

Will the multiplayer AI be the same as the single player AI?

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

As long as we can all fend off wave after wave of enemies with our collective backs to the wall at some point I will be happy.

Ive always wanted to play a true stategic tower defense.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Sounds... interesting.

Just for the record, I hope single player is still the top priority based on what was said.  My priorities will always be single player first, then conventional multiplayer (primarily just a me and a friend or two playing against the AI).  Persistent multiplayer sounds unique, but I hope it won't draw too many development resources from the first two items.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sole, reply 1
So...does this mean we won't have multiplayer save and resume capability (as I, and I believe others, initially thought would be the case)?  Or is this just an extension of the whole persistence idea?

Not to say that this isn't great-it is.  I'm just feeling a little confused.

? Of course we'll have multiplayer save and resume.  I'm not sure how the two are related to what is being discussed.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

The Empire system sounds really neat. It would be really interesting to have people drop in and out of a game that spans a continent and several planes.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 9
? Of course we'll have multiplayer save and resume.  I'm not sure how the two are related to what is being discussed.

Because multiplayer save and resume is a "persistent" game across multiple "sessions".

Thank you for letting me know I was reading into it too much, though, and confirming that it will exist.

:)

Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top

The downside of it could be that you could have insane server loads or, worse, a system that breaks with in-game save-resume. Of course, save-resume could be available solely for non-persistent play.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Wow.  I think this might the first game I've ever come across where the MP portion sounds like it could be just as fun as the SP portion.  Seriously, I suddenly find myself actually *wanting* to try this out (which for me is unprecedented -- I've nearly always stuck to singleplayer only). 

That's just way too cool, Brad.  :thumbsup:  

 

 

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

I also have another question - Will factional alliances be forced in these persistant multiplayer matches, or will players be allowed to betray their factional allies?

Personally, my favorite part about this type of game is working out the politics. If factions are hardcoded and predetermined before you join a match, it might take a little away from the diplomacy side of things.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

To me one of the key points in MP is game duration. Civ IV has different speeds, for instance, but even then I feel the fast speed is too slow (you may spend one evening of play mostly hitting end turn).

How long would a MP game last? Are the turns continuous a la Dom3 or a la Civ IV or are they more Galciv like (which means much slower games)?

What does the Empire vs. Kingdom mean? If I play a session that is not finished, next time I connect, can I play the same session or am I joining the current game in which some other Empire players kept playing since last I logged and find an evolved game situation?

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

I guess there will be an option for simultanious turns.

One thing to comment here. I do love the way it works in CIV4 with take over AI's for people quitting, but one thing irritates me. In CIV4 multiplayer most mp games starts out with prince (medium) difficult level per player. When an AI comes inn for a player the AI is pretty easy match. It would be great if the AI that undertook a human player could have greater benefits (be better) then on the difficultsetting in the start of the game (when it's often only human players).

One more example: In CIV 4 if you like to make a game with 6 humans and 6 AI's, and want the AI's to make it a bit better you may for instance choose that the human players play on monarch, and the AIs on prince (easier). It works fine until another human player joins in for one of the AI's and also benefits from the prince level. We should have a system to prevent this.....

Joining humans should play on the same difficulty as the starting humans. And joining AI's should optionally (in the setup of the game) have it easier.

Any CIV-players here understanding what I mean? ;)

 

 

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

Another thing I'd like to add. Plaese don't have a score system where you can see each of the players total score from early in the game, like in Civ4 or Heroes 4. It makes people too focused on that score, and quitting when they feel they're to far behind.

Hopefully you will have to make alot of effort in Elemental to collect that kind of info about your opponents.

 

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

In fact, in terms of the single player game, it will have a lot more "stuff" to it than GalCiv had (such as a virtual persistent single player opponent which we'll talk more as time goes on).

Oh, does that mean we get an AI that remembers stuff from game to game?

Meaning that if I usually play as a relentless backstabber it won't trust me so much (or at all) in other games?

 

That would be really nice. :)

 

I allways thought the Altarians should never trade with me after so many games in which my only goal was to destroy those Terran impersonators. Would be fun if that would happen.

Just imagine:

You've started a new game and after some time encounter the AI you've utterly annihilated in the last game, which is now hellbent on revenge and tries to destroy you, while cursing you for it's loss in the last game. :w00t:

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Oh, does that mean we get an AI that remembers stuff from game to game?

That's kind of what I'm hoping, especially if what it remembers is not as much about drama details as it is about a given players habits and the potential strategic weak spots they tend to create.

Also, if the 'persistent' stuff works well for the single-player opponent instances, maybe a similar code chunk could provide a pool of trainable hero units, so you would eventually have different lineages that spawned heroes who understand and apply the human player's typical settings for both logistics duty and when given the reins in a tactical fight.

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

This persistent world idea sounds really interesting, but to echo what someone above posted, please don't let this kind of development interfere with the single player game.  I read somewhere, and hopefully the developers have numbers, that in games that include both single player and multiplayer, the percentage of people that play single player is much higher then the percentage of people that play multiplayer.  This means that the single players are really the target market for the game.  If you can do both well, great, but if the single player game doesn't work well that's much more important then the multiplayer game not working well.  When you look at a forum like this one, you will see an unbalenced representation of people talking about multiplayer, and I think that is because the people who play multiplayer are more likely to be the people who are vocal on forums like this. 

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting lamperti, reply 21
This persistent world idea sounds really interesting, but to echo what someone above posted, please don't let this kind of development interfere with the single player game.  I read somewhere, and hopefully the developers have numbers, that in games that include both single player and multiplayer, the percentage of people that play single player is much higher then the percentage of people that play multiplayer.  This means that the single players are really the target market for the game.  If you can do both well, great, but if the single player game doesn't work well that's much more important then the multiplayer game not working well.  When you look at a forum like this one, you will see an unbalenced representation of people talking about multiplayer, and I think that is because the people who play multiplayer are more likely to be the people who are vocal on forums like this. 

I love multiplayer games. But I am not an advocate of them in terms of taking resources up from the single player game for most types of PC games.  That's because, as a practical matter, relatively few people play on-line.  Not because they can't but because it's just usually not worth the hassle.

 

I often wonder why people don't read what is allready written...

 

:'(

Reply #23 from Elemental Forums Top

Can we choose not to fight on the border regions of our lands of the larger "empire"?

 

I want my Kingdom to be deep in Empire territory, focusing on economic backbone support!

Reply #24 from Elemental Forums Top

Just a pesky interface question:

How will user-supplied 'mod' content interface with MP mode?  Are we looking at something like Battle for Wesnoth, where all players need to hunt down the most recent version of the mods being used to play the game?  Or will there be some manner of automated mod gathering tool?  But the main gist of this question is 'can we MP with mods'?

 

Reply #25 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Rhishisikk, reply 24
Just a pesky interface question:

How will user-supplied 'mod' content interface with MP mode?  Are we looking at something like Battle for Wesnoth, where all players need to hunt down the most recent version of the mods being used to play the game?  Or will there be some manner of automated mod gathering tool?  But the main gist of this question is 'can we MP with mods'?

 

 

That's a very important question. In Galciv you could not play the metaverse if you had mods. It would be nice to know how that will work. I could not be bothered to try adn find out which mod is necessary to play a given game. If it works with mod online it would be nice to have a pop up saying  mod 1 2 3 are needed press ok to download them. And the the game would load. That would be great.