Research screen is FUBAR (nonfunctional)

from Stardock Forums
I have just completed Dreadnought technology and I select as my next tech Interstellar Marketing.

As is typical, I decide to invest just enough to complete Interstellar Marketing in 2 turns, because of the well-known bug whereby the Research screen completely freezes up if you research something in under 1 turn. The data file says Interstellar Marketing costs 500 bc, but I know that it will cost more because of the undocumented extra fee associated with all techs as you progress thru the tech tree.

I adjust the Domestic Policy sliders and refer back to the Research screen to see how my adjustments are affecting things. While making these adjustments I need to make sure to 'diddle' the Spending slider each time because adjustments to the Military/Social/Research sliders don't update the cost summary numbers correctly. (The numbers continue to change just by closing & reopening the screen, or updating the F2 side panel.)

Anyway, at 565 bc/mo, it says '1 Month Remaining' on the Research screen. I adjust downward. At 160 bc/mo, it still says '1 Month Remaining'. Of course, it is MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for a tech to be '1 Month Remaining' at both 160 bc AND 565 bc.

Extreme frustration is setting in now, as I realize at this point the Research screen is basically 'talking out of its ass', completely FUBAR and unusable. I'll have to GUESS BLINDLY at how much bc to invest in Research from this point onward. The undocumented 'tech tax' makes it impossible to know how much a tech will cost. The bug-riddled Research screen is screwed up beyond any recognition unless I screw myself by reloading the game to reset it, thus losing all influence and resetting the AI which is not being saved in the save file either.

All these bugs are interrelated and compounding the main problem, which is that the Research screen is less than worthless, and the behavior of the sliders on the Domestic Policy screen also need severe help.

These issues are far more important than new ships/events/movies/whatever. They are central to the game's functioning and appeal. Those who don't agree are probably RTS fans. This is not an RTS--those sliders and numbers mean something to many of us, and the fact that they continue to malfunction at this late stage in development is extremely disappointing.

As I do not have access to 1.04beta, I would like to see some comments from the beta testers about whether any of these bugs are fixed in 1.04.
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Reply #1 from Stardock Forums Top
You're a glass half-empty kind of guy, I take.

These "huge" problems have no effect for anyone except the micro percentage of you who do try to micro manage the sliders every single turn and pull your hair out doing so.

I tweak things when I need a general, empire wide change in ratios - that's at most every couple of years. I've never *once* seen the research screen not accurately reflect when a tech would be done, and I've never been so anal retentive to calculate whether or not my paid costs match the data file. I'll also bet I'm having a lot more fun with the game than you.

I'll take the new ships and other toys and I'm not a big RTS guy by any stretch of the imagination.
Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top
I find that the following behavior sequence will "force" the research screen to accurately update it's time remaining bar:

A) Open up the research tab and make sure it's on the desired tech, note remaining turns
B) Close the menu and return to in-game map
C) Re-open menu and go to domestic tab, adjust sliders as necessary
D) Close the menu and return to in-game map
E) Re-open menu and go to research tab; observe new research spending accurately reflected in time remaining graph

Due to the ritual effect one or more of those steps may be unnecessary... but it works for me. And as a result I have found myself micromanaging a bit less and focusing more on the overall strategy of the game.
The Political Machine 2024
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
Monkey, I can focus on overall strategy and also manage my empire efficiency simultaneously, thank you. If you can't do that, then I'm sorry for you. If you feel like you're pulling your hair out when you try to chew gum and walk at the same time, don't blame me. And don't feel the need to sling insults at people who point out bugs, fanboy.

Now, about those bugs. Any beta-testers testing for bugs, or just fancy new graphics?
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
.. .. .. bit chilly in here lately .. .. ..


Elrikk


~SDC~
Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top
> Monkey, I can focus on overall strategy and also
> manage my empire efficiency simultaneously, thank you.
> If you can't do that, then I'm sorry for you. If you
> feel like you're pulling your hair out when you try to
> chew gum and walk at the same time, don't blame me.
> And don't feel the need to sling insults at people who
> point out bugs, fanboy.

So saying you're a half-empty sort of guy is an insult?
Seems like a pretty obvious observation of your character based on the tone of your post for an issue that is trivial except for the small percentage of you players who obsess about every little detail. Sorry, but whether or not you can get an up to the minute precise estimate of whether you will finish that tech this month or actually the next is pretty much about as important as losing a corvette 30 years into a game.

The effect from adjusting the sliders will update precisely on the next turn without any of the save/reload or other hoopla, and since the vast majority of players aren't tweaking them every single turn to avoid the "waste", it just doesn't make a difference. It has nothing to do with pulling out my hair, I simply have found there is NO advantage to playing that way, it's the GalCiv version of OCD. The gains are infinitessimal next to the time spent trying to gain them.

As for the "fanboy", what a brilliant retort. Whipping out "fanboy" to a detractor is pretty much admitting that your point is so inconsequential that you feel the need to hurl a non-insult at the people who bother to argue with you because no one cares about your problem. Basically, anyone who doesn't see how this is such a nigh make or break issue for the playability of the game is a fanboy in your book.
Reply #6 from Stardock Forums Top
OK, I don't want to get in the middle of anything here, but I have noticed the same problem (perhaps at a lower level)....

If I am spending, say, $5000 each turn on research and I know darned well it should only take $500 to get tech X, so maybe I should lower my tech spending for a turn (since the other $4500 are wasted)....

There is no good way (that I know of) to figure out how much I actually have to spend to get tech X in 1 turn (or 2, or 3, or 4 turns, for that matter). If there was some random element built in (is there?) I would be happier, but as is I just suck up the loss of 4500bc because I don't know any other way to easily fix the problem.

So, I'm not going to stop playing the game tomorrow because of this. But maybe on Monday, ....
Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top
Svalin, that was a good idea and I tried it but didn't really fix things unfortunately. I was hopeful, but once again I had a tech that said 'next month' but it didn't get done. :( Reloaded, and then it said '1 month'. So, while it does force the Research screen to update, the updated result still isn't correct.

I have some other ideas to try too. It seems like the Research screen is somewhat accurate at the beginning of a tech before any research has been done on it, but that's just a hunch at this point. Also, it seems like maybe the Research screen gets more inaccurate the longer you play without reloading. I don't like to reload, so for me it gets quite inaccurate.

This is a gigantic galaxy; empire at currently 36 systems with 308 billion population and still growing rapidly, and I'm at about the halfway point I think.

To others: Please if you don't like to adjust your spending sliders much during the game, don't post here saying there is no problem. If you're not noticing the problem in your style of play that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. Whether I am 'anal retentive' or not is a personal issue that does not concern you or anyone else here. Let's stick to the topic at hand please. If you don't want to stick to the topic, at least don't post trolls. Thank you.
Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top
Well, if it is literally FUBAR, then there's not much point in asking them to fix it.
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
What's the "well-know bug whereby the Research screen completely freezes up if you research something in under 1 turn" ????
In my current game I crank up 3000+ Res Pts a turn (with 500+ bc prod invested), and often build "Next turn" small techs in fields I haven't developed yet (military mostly lol !). Never had any "freezes"...
What's the heck ?
:notsure:
Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top
On a related note...did ya ever notice when you start a brand new game that the tech might say 16 months...but as you play it gets done in 3?

This happens alot to me during play, where I'll change th slider to allow more research and shave a few months off, and it's still gets done ALOT sooner than expected.

Moral of the story is that I think it DOES update itself when you hit TURN, not necessarily when you close the research window and open it up again.
Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top
Interstellar: I'm not sure if Cari or Brad have taken a look into these issues, but if not, I'll bring them to their attention for the next build. ;)
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
My $.02

I'm not a 'fiddler', I agree with CodeMonkey--poor benefit for the cost, but I do adjust my research slider when the next discovery is 'Next Month'. I lower it in increments of 5% until it says '1 Month', then I set it back 5% higher. Following this strategy I *never* fail to get the tech 'Next Month', and I get decent 1 turn boosts to my production queues.

I will say that to get an accurate research report I have to force an update to the research panel by exiting and re-entering. My method is to quickly hit F4--F6. Doing that, I always get a perfectly accurate research ETA from beginning to end-game.

So my conclusion is that the research screen is a little quirky, like much of the UI unfortunately, but calling it FUBAR is crude, ignorant and worst of all, just plain incorrect.

p.s. Stardock makes it's money selling products that improve and extend the Windows UI right? So how come the GalCiv UI is so frustrating to almost everyone? It's technically functional but a real pain to use, completely unexpected from the company that makes WindowBlinds and Object Desktop.
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
"Anyway, at 565 bc/mo, it says '1 Month Remaining' on the Research screen. I adjust downward. At 160 bc/mo, it still says '1 Month Remaining'. Of course, it is MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for a tech to be '1 Month Remaining' at both 160 bc AND 565 bc."

Actually it is possible... if it only needs 160BC to finish researching in that months time then allocating 565BC will also complete it in the months time. Now if the game was trying to say that 160BC of research equaled 565BC worth of research then you would be right; however, the game is not saying that since it doesn't seem to count fractions of months. In actuallity it might take 7/8 of a month to complete using 160BC and 1/8 of a month using 565BC but to the game the lowest amount it can display is one month.

Vaaish


~SDC~
Reply #14 from Stardock Forums Top
"These issues are far more important than new ships/events/movies/whatever. They are central to the game's functioning and appeal. Those who don't agree are probably RTS fans. This is not an RTS--those sliders and numbers mean something to many of us, and the fact that they continue to malfunction at this late stage in development is extremely disappointing."

Oh yes, blanket derogatory statements on those who disagree with what you consider as the most important elements of the game do not help your case either. I would be willing to guess that there are not many of us out here who would equate a real time game with clicking a turn button unless you happen to mean that it uses up real time.

~SDC~
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top
I think the problem may be that the research screen simply does not update, much like the treasury, until you do something on the following turn. I could be totally wrong, but I've noticed that multiple times. So, in reality, there is probably a difference in time between 565/150 but the screen is just not updating properly. Which is broken, I agree. Instant feedback = essential for management.

~SDC~
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
Nyghtfyr,

Try exiting the research screen and then bringing it back up after making a change that you think should affect it. When I do that I always get the correct ETA.
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
The lowest it can display is 'Next Month', which is GalCiv's way of saying it's less than '1 Month Remaining'.

The fact that it does update correctly sometimes, but not other times is what's frustrating. I never know when to trust it or not. It's just a matter of figuring out the pattern. The situation in which it's trustworthy as opposed to when it's not trustworthy.

Svalin was right though. It does take clicking the 'Done' button on each screen in order for it to update and settle on its 'final answer', but that answer is sometimes still incorrect. When it is incorrect, it is usually way off; not even close to being correct. That's what I mean by 'fubar'. When it's broke, it's way broke.

The times I have completed a tech in a single turn, the next turn the Research screen always says 'Next Month' for whatever tech you select next no matter how big it is. Others have reported this same issue. It might not actually be 'well known' but it is known to more than just me. Anyway this is also a condition I call 'fubar'.

Since when is 'RTS fan' considered a derogatory statement? ;)
Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top
I think you're on to something with the "beginning of the tech" notion...

Now that I remember a little more I recall that my playing behavior is usually to wait until the current tech is researched. Then after I've chosen a new tech I go and adjust my sliders to precisely what it seems I'll need to finish that tech from start to completion. This makes the process a little less tedious and helps me guide my economic development more closely.

Money is king in this game, there's no doubt about that. And I definitely am still bothered by the "waste" in military or social prod when there's no project... but that's another problem entirely.
Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
Steps to reproduce this problem (I think):

1) Start a new tech.

2) Adjust research & spending sliders to achieve the tech in as close as you can get to a whole number of turns without going over. (For instance, to complete the tech in three turns you would adjust research bc allotment to achieve it in 2.99 turns which would result in the F6 Research screen saying '2 Months Remaining'.)

2a) Do not use the data files to figure your research spending--use the Research (F6) screen as your guide.

2b) Be sure you click the Domestic Policy 'Done' button each time when switching over to Research screen in order to get an accurate result.

3) Play until the research screen says 'Next Month'.

4) Adjust research spending downward until the research screen says '1 Month Remaining'.

5) Adjust research spending upward just enough to result in 'Next Month' appearing again.

6) On the next turn, observe that you will not get your promised tech, and the Research screen will display '1 Month Remaining' even though last month it said you would get the tech 'Next Month'.
Reply #20 from Stardock Forums Top
Interstellar,

I realize I sound like a broken record but seriously: In between steps 5) and 6) above, exit the research screen and then go back in before you end the turn. It will show '1 Month' instead of 'Next Month' in the situation you described.

Increase the research slider a bit until the research screen says 'Next Month' even after exiting it and checking again. I usually just hit -F4-, -F6- really quickly a couple times to accomplish this.

I have no idea why it doesn't calculate it correctly the first time, but I can assure you that it does if you exit and go back in. The exact thing you described in 1-6 used to confound me until I realized that by forcing the screen to 'double-check' it would give me the right answer.

I realize it's more of a work-around then a final solution but it does work.
Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
Just circumstantial evidence, but I had this problem in one game when I had creativity. After that I decided not to take creativity and found that forcing the screen to refresh (F6-F4-F6) works fine.

Interstellar, if you are seleting creativity you may want to try without it. You will still need to force the refresh though.