Rhelamos Rhelamos

So those couple of years where society collapses...

So those couple of years where society collapses...

History repeating itself?

So as a history majour i've been looking recently at a lot of ancient civilisations and taking note of the various factors that contributed to their decline and eventual collapse (though I hate to use that word as I believe not in the collapse of a society but rather massive reorganisations of political, military, and economic forces.  Change /= destruction).

We see the Roman Empire and its decline, caused in great part by internal strife coupled with external pressures and the inability to continue with its primary economic pursuit, namely the expansion of territory and capture of slaves/etc. from surrounding regions, and subsequent collapse into petty fiefdoms and clan-based/feudal regions dominated by those with enough charisma and strength to gather fighters under a banner. 

It happened, doubtless, but here I venture forth a question historians don't often seem to make: were they aware of this iminent shift?  Were the Romans in the 5th century AD aware that soon the world they knew would change so greatly that emphasis in Europe would shift from the Mediterranean to the Northwestern regions for more than 1500 years?  Were they aware of the crushing changes at their doorstep, or did they simply go on with their lives as they always had?

I ask this question because I believe I see factors at work to bring about a new "Dark Age", as it is ignorantly referred to, which is to say a massive reorganisation of the political, social, economic, and military factors present in our world.

Suburban society is the foundation of the United States. People have migrated away from the rural and urban regions of the nation to exist in these veritable bubbles of isolation, this Purgatory of the US lifestyle.  It is supplied via an unceasing reinforcement of trucks delivering goods on a constant basis; these trucks are the lifelines of this way of life and without them suburbia will wither and die.

Only a fool thinks, however, that the unceasing stream of supply will continue indefinitely.  Yes dear folk, I speak of Oil and its decline.  I do not think that we shall reach the point where one day we shall all say "OH MY!  We have run out of oil!" but doubtless we will reach the point of 8,9, dare I say 10 or even 15 dollars a gallon.  The lifeline of this suburban age WILL be severed, it is inevitable, and the only hope we have is the creation of some alternative fuel source or mode of transportation to supply these suburban islands. 

But here we yet again reach another difficult point: where will these alternative fuel sources come from?  Ethanol?  Shale oil? Hydrogen fuel cells?  Each has its own problems.  Ethanol would require shifting massive amounts of farmland towards its creation and, in best light, provide merely a temporary respite.  Shale oil at our current technological state requires more energy to extract than we are capable of extracting.  Hydrogen fuel cells are still far beyond our technological ability.

What then?  I do not deny that some day we will master SOME form of alternative fuel source, but I ask you this: will we be in time?  Will we be able to create this fuel source in time to comfortably transfer over the entire nation?  I think that is foolishly optimistic wish.

Consider this: Tokyo's subway system is among the most advanced in the world and millions of people depend on it for daily transportation.  What if that system were to suddenly stop?  Certainly there are alternative means of reaching work, school, etc.  There is walking, riding a bike, many things, but nevertheless the vast majority of the opulation would be denied access essential destinations i.e. work places.  Say we disable it for a week.  After the week we have the trains up and running again.  Does this repair the damage caused by that week of immobility?  The damage is already done, it cannot be undone.  Entering an entirely new fuel source into a national economy and society will not be so smooth as suddenly having subway access again, either.  Do you see what i'm saying here?

If the gap between the time we can say that an alternative fuel source is in majority use and the time when the majority of society becomes unable to maintain mobility and supply via personal vehicles is large enough it WILL cause a massive shift in US socio-economic status.  There is absolutely no question of this whatsoever: if the gap is too wide the shift WILL occur and may, in future years, be seen by our descendents as "Collapse".

If this dreadful gap is too wide, much too wide, then I cannot help but see the following:  People will flock from suburban centres to urban and rural areas.  Overcrowding and inability to supply will create famine and support the formation of gangs and civilian militia.  A twisted form of urban feudalism will take place in the cities and the national government, in a desperate attempt to retain what is left of its security and power, will send out military units to quell these groups.  These military units, if not supplied and maintained, will simply turn into personal armies under charismatic leaders promising survival and a "return to the old days".  Pseudo militaries and civil strife will be the watchwords of the day and much, if not all, of the country will fracture and turn in on itself.  Thus the "Modern Dark Age" sets in. 


Will we be able to keep that gap small enough to avoid such drastic changes?  Will we be able to keep that gap small enough that we're only in for a rough ride and not a total shift in the way we view and interact with our world?  I can only hope so.
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Reply #51 Top
I give my sources. What are your sources?

Yea. I lived well within the thirty mile range of yankee power nuclear plant for thirty years and I didn't worry about it. Nice, clean energy. I visited the plant and wrote an extra credit report I was so enraptured with the power source. Many years later I also happened to work for a customer who lived directly across from Three Mile Island. He was unconcerned and said that during the tense time he didn't move and was very confident in his safety. I stayed in a motel near there and demanded they give me a different room because of a spider infestation problem. They weren't giant spiders or anything. They were just plentiful and behaving oddly. I saw about five here and there while getting ready for bed. That didn't bother me. When I saw the second one running along the sheets toward my face in the middle of the night, I'd had enough.

Nuclear waste is also vulnerable when being transported on highways to waste dumps. Terrorists could easily hijack a truck or dump the contents. Let's not forget that a determined band of them took over numerous planes and flew them into various targets with devastating effects not long ago. They were armed with box cutters. They could be much better armed for hijacking a truck.

"100% increase in the incidence of cancer and leukemia
250% increase in congenital birth deformities
1,000% increase in suicide in the contaminated zones
2,400% increase in the incidence of thyroid cancer
“Chernobyl AIDS” is the term doctors are using to describe illnesses associated with the damage done to the immune system by the effects of the radioactive material “strontium”. It is also a contributory factor to the increase in the number of cancer cases as a result of damage to the body’s immune system. "


Don't trust Greenpeace? Do you trust the United Nations?

"The United Nations Agency “UNICEF” has assessed the impact of Chernobyl on the health of children in Belarus, and found increases in:

Congenital heart and circulatory diseases – 25% increase
Disorders of the digestive organs – 28% increase
Malignant tumours – 38% increase
Disorders of the genito-urinary system – 39% increase
Disorders of the nervous system and sensory organs – 43% increase
Blood circulatory illnesses – 43% increase
Disorders of the bone, muscle and connective tissue system – 62% increase
(From the 1995 UN Report on Chernobyl)"

http://www.chernobyl-international.com/school_education/impact_of_the_disaster.462.html

We are getting a little off topic, but then someone did make claims to the effect that nuclear power isn't worrisome and that the public is hysterical regarding the subject. You yourself have implied that nuclear power plants are perfectly safe and that nuclear accidents won't happen.

You say we're getting off topic, but then you're also in the same post saying that Chernobyl is "beyond a worst case scenario" which is suggesting what? that it can't happen here or that it didn't happen or won't happen again, that it wasn't so bad? You make bold, inflamatory statements. You claim Greenpeace is "full of crap". You imply that they are spreading lies to serve some agenda, but you don't want to discuss it? Sounds like you want to say some pretty inflamatory things, but you don't want any rebuttal. Well, if you say inflamatory things, expect rebuttal.

Reply #52 Top
don't know what to say about the spiders, but you seem to be implying that they had some kind of weird mutation that made them agressive or something. having not seen this i can't make any kinda point on that. but a mutation to effect the behavior in that way is super rare. most mnutations just kill the host. i would venture that that was just bad luck that you slept in a room with freakishly agressive spiders.

my knowledge of how nuclear waste is transported is limited but i would like to assume that there is some kind of defense on something that has no purpose besides being a weapon, where as a plane is a comercial mode of transportation, thus the lack of security that led to 9/11

but yes theoreticaly terrorist could hijack the nuclear waste truck and dump it infront of a school or something. the fact that they didn't yet leads me to belive that there are defenses in place or that that wouldn't be as effective as we think. And while terrorist could do this there are alos lots of other things terroist can do thats bad. arguing that some one can do something so therefore we should never have that is a fundamentaly flawed argument. terrorist can find some way to attack anything. and terrorist aren't a problem with nuclear reactors, they are a problem in general.

and in my defense of nuclear power i may have been a bit overzelous. i don't mean to say that they are 100% safe and that a accident will never happen. it's just that the chances of tose happening are so low that i would happily live right next to a power plant with out worry.

"beyond worst case scneraio" is a figure of speach. sorry for being unclear. what i ment was that the russians were doing tests to see how far they could push the reactor and still bring it back undercontrol. it wasn't a situation that would have normaly happened and its one that after happening once should never happen again.

As for greenpeace, i don't trust any thing they say. they do have an agenda, one that can only be accomplished with more people on their side. they intentionaly strech fact and draw conclusions that aid them. Check greenpeace's sources and fallow it all the way back. odds are that it comes from a scinetist who is a member of greenpeace or that their is some other major fact that was paired with but that they left out.

and i never said any thing about not wanting to discuse or rebuttal. all i said was we were off topic, which is true. i am not making bold claims or anything, i am just in disagrement with you. and as for my sources several college proffesors in various scinetific and enviormenta fields, in my first reply hear i said i worked ina supermarket, that doesn't mean that i am unedecuated.
Reply #53 Top
College professors in those fields are good sources, but I do not rely on them entirely as they often have their own prejudices and are quite capable of being wrong too. Sometimes an entire school can be of a conservative or liberal bent. I prefer to have numerous sources. I must confess that it's easy to want to listen to only the things you want to hear. This must be guarded against. The web provides many sources. I haven't looked extensively but from what I've seen, most sites and experts on the web are wary of nuclear.

I don't share your distrust of Greenpeace (it seems rather rabid ((your distrust of them that is))). Your distrust sounds like the same thing I've heard many times from conservatives who listen to certain conservative progams and stations. I consider those stations and commentators propaganda machines working to push the party line as oppossed to journalists reporting the news without regard to party dogma. Journalism shouldn't be aligned with parties as far as I'm concerned, but it has become so. I know conservatives feel that journalism in the past was pushing liberal party line and they are now just doing the same. I disagree with some of that. I think they've become a little overt in their zeal and people like yourself have been sucking it up and not doing your homework. You think that you're getting the real facts, but you're just not checking other sources because you distrust them so much. I think that's bad.

Here's a shocker for you. I've been reading Al Gore's book "The Assault on Reason" and I agree with a lot of it. He thinks that news has become infotainment as opposed to journalism and he's worried that nobody seems to listen to senators discussing things as they once did. Opinion is masquaraded as news.

Several people have mentioned scientists here and talked in a disparaging tone about them. I'm guessing this is the "Global warming is BS" crowd, who once again get all their info from conservative radio and tv. Engineers use science all the time. They are trained in the sciences, but whereas scientists often work for governments and universities where they are allowed to think for themselves, engineers tend to work for corporations that tell them what their goals should be and expect them to finish projects on deadline. Engineers are great people, but they aren't going to go far if they don't produce what their company wants them to produce. Why would anyone think they were superior to scientists?

Conservatives own stock in companies like oil companies and car manufacturing. Do you think they want fortunes spent on tearing down their working, dividend paying companies to make a cleaner environment? Do you think they want to hear about ice caps melting and climate change. No. They don't want to hear that at all because they want their utility companies to keep paying dividends. If their nuclear plant gets closed. The utility is going to lose a fortune and they're not going to get any dividend checks. Conservatives don't like that. You work in a grocery store. Do you get huge dividend checks? I doubt it. But you support these old ways of doing things because you think they're smarter than you or you're afraid of change. They've somehow convinced you that nuclear is patriotic or something. Geez! Go to a library and the internet and force yourself to read some opposing opinions before you just accept what your professors say. At least debate those guys. Does safe mean forever safe or just for a couple of decades? Nobody lives in the Chernobyl ares to this day. A fairly huge city abandoned by the Russians who generally have a lower regard for health and safety. (look at how they sent their guys in to fight in WW2. Only the guys up front had guns. You were supposed to pick up the gun from your dead comrades or enemies.)



Reply #54 Top
but yes theoreticaly terrorist could hijack the nuclear waste truck and dump it infront of a school or something. the fact that they didn't yet leads me to belive that there are defenses in place or that that wouldn't be as effective as we think.


Although I'm sure the defenses are in place for such things, one has to realize that the government has no interest in telling the population if such a thing happens. Because such things are nearly undetectable even after they happen means that in order to keep everyone from going crazy, they would keep it secret.

What happened to the fallout area from the Trinity testing site? The Downwinders weren't told, and in 3-mile island, they decided that anything that would get into the atmosphere would blow off into the ocean by the wind patterns...

I'm not suggesting that it happens all the time, I'm just saying that if you know what the government does in such cases, you as an individual can take the precautions necessary to insure that you are not victimized by such incompetent secrecy.

Of course, in your example, the proper course of action is to not eat the dirt in and around those locations, which is easy. But what if you have to not breathe the air, or not drink the water, it gets harder, and there are plenty of hazardous materials that are not radioactive, and undetectable to anyone who isn't using the latest sensing equipment to look...

I'm only pointing out the complexities of such situations, and not suggesting that you should actually be worried.

*******

One could say that when Kennedy said "we will go to the Moon, and do the other thing, not because they are easy, but because they are hard" that certain people in power were scared by the words "And do the other things" as they might have referenced reforms unacceptable by such third parties, and that this could be blamed for the results, but that's just plain silly...


My point is to know people, how they act, their motivations, etc, and to know yourself, and that is your best defense for such things... ...but to be careful when filling in the details with whatever sand and spit one can think of...

Reply #55 Top
Unfortantly every one has a agenda to serve and that makes almost al information biased in some way. despite that we have to ground oursleves somewhere. we have to just take some information at face value because if we are sceptical of everything then we get no where. atleast i need to assume that if terrorists got a truck of nuclear waste and dumped it somewhere that the govement would tell us. because if i can't expect the govement to do that then i can't trust anything it says.

and yes i know my college professers are also biased, as is every one. i have to hope that i am smart enough to see through their bias and make my own opinion. which i did.

some people i know think that nuclear power is the devil, i do not. while some people think its the best thing ever, i do not. all i have said is that its not as bad as the general public thinks it is. even you, RomanSpy, while debating with me, have indirectly said its not as bad as people think. you pointed out places that need improvemnt and things that are wrong with it but avoided saying its just plainly terrible. I would like it if their was an alternative fuel source to nuclear, solar wind geothermal, what ever, that could be implemented. currently it will cost to much to effectivly do any of those. and by effectly i mean get every one on board and do it. I don't think nuclear is the best, but i don't think its bad.

Also you seem to have made a generalization of me.

"I don't share your distrust of Greenpeace (it seems rather rabid ((your distrust of them that is))). Your distrust sounds like the same thing I've heard many times from conservatives who listen to certain conservative progams and stations. I consider those stations and commentators propaganda machines working to push the party line as oppossed to journalists reporting the news without regard to party dogma"

I have done my homework and i do look at what greenpeace says. my personal opinion it that they try to mislead people who don't really know what their doing. greenpeace operates by trin to get uninformed people on their side. i don't like them. i have no problem with other enviromentalists, i just dislike greenpeace.

i do think global warming is an issue, i don't have problems with gay marriage, i am pro-choice, i think illegal imigration is an issue, i don't have problems with being in iraq right now. My opinions are my own after looking at the facts that i could find and making my own dicisions. i am not mindlesly following my a party, nor am i just assuming that if the media says it it is true.

and no i don't get huge checks for working at a super market. i got payed crap like every one else who works in a place like that, and i felt that the small sum i was making wasn't enough so i worked on a promotion, now for 30 hours a week i get to run the entire store, every one reports to me. when i feel that i am not making enough for the amount of work i am doing i will leave, or move up again. i am not just accepting whats around me, i am making my own ideas and doing what i want.


Reply #56 Top
I think that in the long run, our power needs will be met increasingly from renewable energy, and by using power more efficiently. There's no doubt that there will be an impact on our lifestyles, but with a bit of forethought there's no need for civilization to grind to a halt. In the long long run, I wouldn't be surprised if we manage to create new power sources which far outstrip demand and don't require too much real estate.
Reply #57 Top
Although I'm sure the defenses are in place for such things, one has to realize that the government has no interest in telling the population if such a thing happens. Because such things are nearly undetectable even after they happen means that in order to keep everyone from going crazy, they would keep it secret.


Well, an entire school would be difficult to keep it secret. I'm sure half the kids would blog about it as soon as they knew what was happening. And a truckload of nuclear material would be rather hard to miss. The media would probably be on the incident and reporting it long before the government knows it's happening.

In addition, if it's a terrorist activity, I'm sure they'd at least do something newsworthy with it, like explode it or something. The whole point of terrorism is to get noticed.

With the popularity of the internet, it wouldn't take much at all to get the word out as soon as somebody outside the government knew about it. A single blog post or picture taken by a cell phone camera can spread across the entire Internet in minutes. By the time the government learns about it, it's probably being covered by every news organization and it's too late for secrecy.

Frankly, I'm skeptical about a lot of conspiracy theories these days. Sure, there are occasional real conspiracies, but I seriously doubt the government is constantly blotting out everything newsworthy. The truth is almost always a lot more mundane than conspiracy theorists say it is. They tend to hyper focus on details that stick out that often aren't really that unusual when you step back and look at the big picture.

Personally, it's my opinion that we should step back, take a deep breath, and come up with a reasonable and feasible solution. The solution should be relatively cheap and easy to implement. The solution shouldn't force us to make huge compromises. The solution should have a measurable improvement. Most of all, the solution should be something that both Republicans and Democrats can agree to. Because if it can't pass both parties, it's not going to happen.
Reply #58 Top
Governments have, at no point in time whatsoever, had the interests of individual people in mind. This has never nor shall it ever be the case. Governments have the interest of the collective whole in mind; the stability of the state far outweighs any concern for individual citizens.

You can make yourself feel better by calling it "Sacrificing the one for the sake of the many" or whatever you wish, but the fact of the matter remains: if there's a choice of killing off one or one hundred people to keep three million from rioting in the streets you can bet that the higher ups will do what needs to be done.

This isn't a matter of "good" or "evil" or whatnot, this is just the way things need to be. You can't please everyone, you can't save everyone, and people in power who truly have the interests of the nation at heart know this.

To think that governments don't have vast closets of "dirty laundry" is rather naive. To think that the US government, in particular, has somehow risen above the need for pursuing "secret agendas" due to it's democratic gloriousnessness is even more so. They do, regardless of what you think. The only question that remains is to what extent does this closet reach. Does it mean the government experiments on babies trying to develop super soldiers? Doubtful. Does it mean they might keep certain information away from public eyes for fear of the chaos it might cause? Of course it does.

NEVER take anything at face value. You can accept things but only do so after you've given it some thought yourself and at least considered alternative possibilities. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being critical of information.