I'll try to answer some of these questions jpinard, but they do seem awfully generic "why are you evil" types. I'll try not to answer with a "because we're not" so hear this.
1. Tiananmen square is history, it happened, it was horrible and the specific incident ended before most people here were born. No amount of explaining can change that so its best to leave it at that. In fact, Tiananmen square is close to becoming a second Godwins law and it does get tiring.
2. This all depends on definitions. If you believe Tibet is an occupied sovereign state, then yes, China is exploiting Tibetian resources and arbitrarily issuing mining rights and leases without consent form the Tibetian Government in Exile. Does it take without giving? This one is a little harder to deny. Tibets modern infrastructure and local administration was built by the PRC because it considers Tibet to be part of its country. It therefore develops Tibet like how it would develop any other part of its country. Of course you may argue that this is all to facilitate the process of draining Tibet dry and oppressing its people so it is all about definitions. Where one sees a school, you might say it is an indoctrination centre, a hospital becomes a organ-stealing clinic, a police station becomes a death-squad base and a power plant is a means for providing continuous electrocution of detainees. Now, another effect of China treating tibet like part of the country is that the environment suffers. Why, because the environment in general suffers in China. There is no purposeful scorched-earth policy here, simply because China hates Tibetans, and I frankly find it disgusting when people add "China destroys Tibets Environment" to the Free Tibet routine as if Chinas own environment isn't worth their spit. I can try tell you that Tibet is part of China, but if you you don't agree I won't think less of you.
3. Pollution, ahh yes, all that horrendous volume of pollution that China is creating, it has surpassed the USA as top polluter in the world. Those perfidious Chinese, how dare they! Since one westerner is worth three Chinese and twelve africans, it is easy to see why people are outraged. I won't bother repeating the Delayed Industrial Revolution argument since some people will find it still has something to do with communism and being unfree. On the other hand the pollution does make me literally sick so rest assured you're not on the worst end of it.
4. Handling Taiwan(ROC).
First off, China(PRC) doesn't dominate Taiwan. China would very much like to but no, Taiwan just goes and does its thing how it likes. China used to treat Taiwan like how the USA treats Cuba. But today, relations range from cordial to cold depending on a complex ballet of actions, reactions and just general tit-for-tat. Actions include things like independence related election pitches, sovereignty speeches, territorial disputes, sabre rattling and George Bush opening his mouth. Reactions and counter-reactions generally consist of anti-secession laws, announced arms sales, military exercised, joint-military exercises, weapons tests, press releases of miscellaneous refutations, George Bush opening his mouth again, more sabre rattling and angry memos. This process repeats itself ad nauseum until people get tired and things go back to normal. Normal as in Taiwan trading with China and no angry words flying around compared to Taiwan trading with China and trading threats as well.
If you are concerned about China vetoing Taiwan at every turn and buying off countries to diplomatically isolate Taiwan, then I do agree that is pretty dirty work, but please realise that this is par for the course in international relations.
However, to elaborate on that and address Taiwans right to independence, I will examine the history of the argument. You may now the PRC's line on Taiwan reads something like "the inseparable brothers of the glorious motherland must be liberated from the capitalists dogs of the USA..blah blah.". What you may not know was that back in time, the ROC and the USA were committed to a policy of retaking the "rebellious" mainland and uniting it with the legitimate ROC government. It was taken for granted that every American administration since Truman would commit America to assist the ROC in retaking mainland China when the time came. Officially, the west denied the existence of the PRC and the ROC took the seat as a permanent member of the UN security council as the government of all of China. Eventually, common sense prevailed and the Nixon administration decided it was absurd to deny the representation of a fifth of the worlds population, and canned the liberation plans. The ROC was given the boot and the PRC now became the official China.
In what seems to be the most ironic Russian Reversal in the 20th Century, all the ROC's talk of liberation and unification came round to bite its ass.
"In Communist China, China liberates you!!" became the reality.
After a collective "oh shit" the ROC government realised that the USA weren't going to just give up their giant unsinkable carrier guarding the South China sea, so after a period of stonewalling someone came up with a new spin for the new age. Taiwan independence. Now, Taiwan independence isn't an entirely new thing, it was never permitted to be discussed until the late 80's (Taiwan wasn't a democracy until then).
For all its reasons for legitimacy the independence movement does not have a bright future. Whilst the ROC once had American support to retake the mainland, it now faces dwindling support to maintain its existence and both sides know it is now simply a waiting game. Now, there are legitimate reasons for Taiwanese independence, and it even may be the right thing to do. But the centuries long cause of the Taiwan Aborigines has been hijacked by whatever successive newcomer that arrives and takes power that it has largely lost its meaning. Oh, and it is idealistic and the world has no place for idealism.
As for Tibetan independence, I don't want to repeat the "17th century Imperial decree blah blah blah.. " nor do I want to hear the "accepted definition of statehood" which is entirely western and hypocritical. Think about the Quebecois, The Basque, Scots, Kurds and all the other independence movements. Do you care about them? If not, then as yourself why you care about Tibet. If you do, then well, good luck.
5. Ahh, the zombie vassal strategy. Yes you are entirely correct, except it is not just a "few bucks", it is grabbing an entire nation worth of natural resources without getting your hands dirty. What you notice about these governments is that they are not only corrupt and undemocratic, but that they are failing. China gives them infusions of aid and assistance while keeping a hand on the tap to make sure they do exactly as they are told. The reason China makes no attempt to really help them is because they worse they are, the more they depend on China. Yes this is evil,in fact its dastardly evil, but however it is awesome, and the world makes an exception for awesome evil.
6. Depends what you read. My position is that the government does more things right than wrong, and they are given credit for a lot more wrong than they deserve. This one I will leave for later. (Hint: you can make specific accusations for specific cases but don't ask people why they are evil)
7. Have you bothered to read some of Goobi's other posts, maybe it was in the other forum but it said something about how everything that goes wrong in China is blamed on the government. You say The Chinese Government behave like a greedy American Corporation, ever consider that China has greedy corporations of its own? Ever realise that communism is over and private enterprise is now king? If there is a fault with the government over ip then it is to do with failure to enforce and regulate and lack of IP laws. Enforcement is a difficult task as well as the prospect of stamping out the livelihoods of millions of citizens who feed their families with "piracy". People are arrested and fined en-masse but you don't read about them because there are too many to be newsworthy, the people they arrest are piss-poor and have nothing, so why would you know about them? The domestic film and recording industries suffer, so that is why they now find different business models to make money of music and film. Bogus or dangerous products and medicine is an entirely different matter from ip. It is a matter of manufacturers cutting costs without regard for lives, capitalism at its finest. As it goes, you get what you pay for.
As for the allegation that the government hoardes a vast amount of money, I would question your sources. What do you think drives the current high growth? About, corruption, my father used to joke that corruption is our heritage. Now I see he wasn't joking.
On another note, the recent earthquake has caused whole school to collapse brying 400 students. 100 made it out alive. Inspection shows that no steel reinforcements were cast into the concrete when the school was built. Painful reminders show us how far we still have to go.

hello, uh, i seriously don't think that ALL countries should actually turn into a country where everyone should have the balls to change their governments. I'm from Indonesia and here we usually see everyone rioting for even the most pathetic reasons and i totally hate it. When a governor gets elected in a province the people that voted for the opposing candidate starts rioting and burn the place up. If the opposite candidate gets elected the other side riots. It's a hellish circle here. this goes for other things the government wants to do to try to improve the country. nobody just has the balls to give it a try so they go against the government and the government cant do jack S***.
uh. sorry for going off topic, but that just gave a WTF moment.

ProfCS101, you sound as if you're fresh of the field from Yorktown, to have the nerve to lecture a nation on their cowardice for fighting for something you simply don't like. Truth is, you didn't fight for the freedom you live in today, nor did most Americans alive today. You were simply lucky to be born there, and those you hold in contempt are unlucky to be born in places you don't understand. What did the Americans do after winning their independence? They had a civil war and killed 1,030,000 of their own countrymen. Yet I wont hold that against you and take it as evidence that the USA is an evil violent nation.

So can your vaunted CIA and DHS, many Americans seem pretty proud of the fact that they so efficient in making people disappear. Just hope that you are not too patriotic for your own good.
In the spirit of competition I declare that the USA is not as free nor as safe as my country. Here, we have parliamentary democracy, more than two parties to vote for and no terrorists ever. This is New Zealand, we don't hate people and people don't hate us.

no sorry the world does not work this way, Plato. ideals aren't "good" or "bad", they're just ideals.



and no it doesn't. protip: there are more variables in the existence of a state than just waving a stupid flag around. such things as "economic success" or "quality of life" or "governmental stability".

i'd also like to know where you come up with the whole "slaughtering tens of millions" thing because I'm pretty sure you just pulled that out of thin air.

It hurts to be this obvious but really... doesn't acceptance of the latter immediatly sterilize the former?

Nequa said:



The earthquake is dominating news here right now. Even the olympics and the torch relay has disappeared. At work, in car, at home - we are watching the tv and the radio.

It is hard to express the feelings. At the start, it was just weird and confusing. For about 5 seconds, I felt dizzy and I thought I saw all the buildings outside moving and the floor changing like I was drunk. Then the building alarms don't stop to go wooo wooo wooo and everyone starts to scream. The whole building races down the stairs because the lifts don't work. When we are downstairs, everyone seems okay. We sent many phone calls and messages to each other and friends - and in Beijing there was no real damage. So then everyone is happy. I was even laughing thinking it was quite exciting.

Then we begin to hear of the damage in Szechuan and Wenchuan in particular. It sounds bad. Wen JieBao, our Premier, rushed to the site and gave an inspection and met with the people there. He's had a tough beginning of the year I think - it was not long ago he was rushing all over the country talking about the snow storms. Now he is doing the same but with an earthquake.

For the first two days, there were dangerous but hopeful images on the media. Pictures of destroyed buildings, schools, hospitals. But lots of pictures of brave fireman lifting children out of rubble or soldiers throwing food parcels to people trapped underground, or people with blood but saying they are ok. It was a bad situation, especially with the terrible rain that comes after the earthquake, but at least people were being rescued. There were many hopeful messages, celebrities donating money, candle guards and praying of citizens to wish the victims hope.

Now it is three days later. The pictures are not so hopeful. We are beginning to see pictures of people coming out who are not moving. The blogs are coming with comments of people seeing the dead bags on the street. Then we see that the cars can not deliver food to the worst places because the roads are all destroyed. So the army needs to send helicopters and planes.

And there are stories of the school swimming competition being cancelled because half the team is dead. Or the kindergarden with all the children buried. Or the hospital with babies just born but the parents have died. At first there was a number of 7000. But every hour the number goes higher.

It is a very sad feeling now. And a bit helpless.


ProfCS101 said:



ubernaught said:



ProfCS101, I can not find a good translation for the word 'proselytizing'. From the context, I presume it means 'defending the lies of a government' - but since it is an important word, I want to be sure before I respond.

Ubernaught, I also can not properly translate 'sterilize'. It seems to have something to do with curing but I don't think that is your meaning and I don't have enough context to properly understand it.

You know, I kind of hate it when Americans say stuff like this.

First of all, it's simply not true. How many other western democracies have abandoned habeas corpus for example? Examining the case of Jose Padilla might be illustrative of just how much freedom American citizens have right now.

Secondly, calling yourself the best at anything--especially such a nebulous concept as "freedom"--is kind of obnoxious, especially when in a forum surrounded by people of other nations.

Every country has their strengths and weaknesses and different ways of doing things, and some people are quite happy to have a little bit less "freedom" if it also means they get things like national healthcare and the like.

In conclusion, Canada #1 suckers!!!1!eleven!!!

Will people get this straight?! China is not communist!   China has huge corporations! The government is trying its best to stop the pollution, but the capitalists who run the companies won't listen because they want more money. I wonder why this sounds so familiar... ;p  Also, if you haven't been to china then yu can shut your ****in' trap about china not being free or whatever, because you have not experienced chinese culture or their attitude towards life in general. It's impossible to explain, but I'd recommend a book called My Country and my People, that was written before the cultural revolution by a chinese english professor. It still applies today, and it manages to both praise and laugh at the chinese people and country at the same time. Honestly, no government propaganda here: I am a Canadian.

wow, people posted while I wrote.
The earthquake was magnitude 7.3, or something like that, just for your info.

I understand, I have the same problem with chinese.
Here, he means the latter will be killing the meaning of the former.


I have something to say to:
It is a purely chinese thing to be able to not do anything about the government. People grumble, yet no-one does anything, and not because you'll get put into jail. It is part of the chinese attitude towards life. Also, will you PLEASE STOP THE STUFF ABOUT AMERICA BEING FREE AND ALL THAT! Honestly, America also has its own CIA, and they can also make you disappear without anyone knowing.
Sorry, I freaked out just now.

Sorry mate, sir Gallant had it right enough.

Sterilize does mean cure. The reason I chose the word in this case was because the term "freedom", by its very definition defies ethical allotment. It is as Ghostwes remarked: nebulous, and thus resists the attempts to be sewn into the banners of the scared and angry.

Lord Zarth asked about Taiwan:

It's well known Taiwan declares themself independent from Mainland China, and Mainland China declares that Taiwan is part of China. There's plenty of debate to keep the high politics and history experts talking forever.

From a more lower perspective, amongst my circle of friends and the Taiwanese I know, feelings are very warm. There's no language barrier - though Beijingers and Taiwanese will tease each other mercilessly about accent. We think their food is too salty, they think ours is too bland. We play basketball together and all support Yao Ming. It's a pain getting visas to visit each other (we must be the only country in the world that needs visa to visit your own country) and frustrating that there are still no direct flights from mainland to Beijing, but that makes Hong Kong airport very happy.

Some things that I think are great about Taiwan:

i) They have preserved historical Chinese culture much better than mainland. Their museums and art galleries are wonderful. They do a great job of reclaiming ancient treasures that have been taken overseas. And they do a better job of protecting historical sites. Mainland China has, at times, neglected the Great Wall (admittedly, it IS kind of long) or been slow to recover items from overseas.

ii) They still use the old (and much more poetic) Chinese written language. Mandarin has two forms of 'alphabet'. One of the things the Communist party did when it came to power was reform the alphabet so it could be more easily learned. The 'old' script would have sometimes over 15-20 strokes for one character. The 'modern' script has an average of 6. As an example, the Taiwanese character for 'flight' has a mother bird, carrying a baby bird over a bamboo bridge (about 14 strokes) . The mainland character for 'flight' has 4 squiggles. It's a lot easier to learn Mainland Chinese (would you rather learn 4 or 14 strokes?) but there is great beauty in the way the Taiwanese write.

iii) music, comics and computer games from Taiwan are more modern than in Mainland. Taiwan borrows heavily from US culture - they have pop starlets in mini skirts dancing sexy, or cool hip hop guys with ear-rings and necklaces. The big music stars are all from Taiwan. The sexiest models in FHM are often Taiwanese. Nightclubs play Taiwan jazz and rock and disco. Internet bars are filled with mainlanders playing Taiwanese MMRPG. The mainland one's are boring.

Similarly, there are many things the Taiwanese praise about Mainlanders - though I should perhaps let Taiwanese themselves talk about that. From a 'normal person' perspective, the hostility and politics about 'Taiwan is part of China' vs. 'Taiwan is independant from China' doesn't really come up so much. We seem to be so much a part of each other's lives, whether you want to call it independant or not, I'm glad for all the things that mainland and Taiwan share.

____________

Ubernaught and Ghostwes pointed out the issue of organ harvesting. I remember reading about this in the local press - and didn't realise there was so much about this in other news.

The way I read local news - greedy medical people plus some corrupt officials organised a scheme to get organ parts and sell them for profit. I remember there being rewards posted for information about them because the police were having trouble catch them.

The way I read the links that were supplied (thank you Ghostwes), there is a giant Chinese conspiracy to rip organs out of people and sell them for the profit of the Chinese government.

Frankly, I have very limited knowledge on this issue. My thoughts though are that in my experience, the government officials and public servants that I have contact would have trouble to organise a 4-person LAN party for Quake. To believe that a huge cosnpiracy and well-organised effort exists to doctors, hospital administrators, prison officials, Ministry of Health members all fully co-operate and hide to engage in a national organ harvesting attack is a bit hard.

I suspect that it is much more likely that there are insufficient checkings in place, poor booking, untrained administration and law enforcement people that are woefully lacking in resources - which means someone working in a prison or hospital or bureau somewhere has worked out a way to illegally make money. And I really very much hope they get caught.

God, now that I think of alot of stuff is happing to Asia. First that Cyclone in Burma (forgot Its current name), then the earthquake in China, and now I belive that there is the possiblity of another Cyclone. You think Burma would try to do more work to save there people, but then again the Junta probally thinks this is a good thing, less people, less problmes! I would watch for any major strikes from the people from Burma because of how the Junta dealt with the Cyclone.

One thing that should be noted about Taiwan is that there are two distinct peoples living there: the Chinese who fled from China during the revolution--mostly bureaucrats and their families, as I understand it--and an indigenous population, which were rather mercilessly repressed and displaced by the refugees. I've heard that there have been some recent attempts to restore some of the indigenous culture, but I'm not sure how effective it's been. Anyway, talking about Taiwanese "independence" from mainland China is kind of ironic, IMO.

Till May 15, 2008 8:00(GMT), the earthquake in Sichuan China, has killed 19'509, injured 102'103, and 12'323 still buried.
And China rescued 33 British, French, U.S. trapped tourists in the Wolong Nature Reserve by helicopter priority.

Just spent a fascinating 30 mins reading this lot - long time since I did that with a big thread ....

We all should be a little more careful in Blanket condemnation of a large group of people because of the actions of a few. Every Country in World has done, or is doing things it should not.

I live in UK, and no doubt our Colonial Cousins across the Pond will attest to some of our past activities, as will the Scottish re The Clearences  ;p  No one is a paragon of vertue.

When a Country is moving its 1.4Billion population from an Agricultural based economy, to a "modern" technological & industrial based economy, its going to get rough. Are there things that should not happen? Thats for sure. However I do believe the long term Objective is a genuine one, and I hope they stick at it.

Meanwhile, mightygoobi Sir, you are a remarkable individual. You have lead and steered (dont stop) a very eloquent discussion on a sensitive topic that could easily have degenerated into moronic yelling. I take my hat off to you, and if there are more like you around, China will eventually succeed in going down the difficult path of Change it is currently treading.

My one criticism? Stop apologising for posting dammit  :LOL:  I recognise the traditional chinese culture of humility showing through, however you have excellent English - damn sight better than my Chinese  :LOL: 

Regards
Zy

Every time I see this thread, I see this post and I can't help but reply to it (I've tried 3 times already, but kep doing stupid things that make me lose my text...


And a few with the US that bug me. Chief among them that some US citizns seem to have ben brainwashed in believing that they are better than everyone else...


Go study some American history. It's full of thngs as bad as Tiananmen Square.


*cough* Native American Indians *cough*


Yes. Did you know that there are nearly 4 times as many Chinese as there are Americans yet, China only just pollutes more than America. Yes. That means that on average, every American produces 4 times more pollution than every Chinese person.


*cough* Native American Indian *cough*. Again.


Double standard are not the sole Domain of the Chinese. Almost every country on the planet runs a fine set of double standards.


Talking about supporting corrupt governments... The US has exploited the governments of Iran, Irag, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and most middle-eastern nations in order to get it's own way.


The US has sold weapons to dictatorships and corrupt governments for years. To influence governemnts and earn "a few extra bucks". How does this make the US better than China?


So too does the US.


Erm... right. The US's one (well actually 2) green efforts?
* Eventually admitting that they need to do something about the amount of pollution they produce.
* Putting polar bears on their endangered species list.

And the bad things? How about the following (all from the very recent past):
* Guantanamo Bay
* Abu Ghraib
* Extraordinary rendition
* Lying about WMD's in Iraq in order to give an excuse to invade
* Sanctioning torture (and before any one complains, convincing someone that they are drowning with waterboarding *is* torture)
* Despite agreeing they need to do something about their pollution, completely refusing to agree to do anything.
* Despite putting polar bears on their endangered list, saying that this will not stop the exploitation of the polar bears natural habitat.
* Police beatings, the latest of which was filmed and was only a couple of weeks ago.


And what about the milions of US citizens living substandard lives that everyone ignores and call "disenfranchised"...?


A lack of one does not cause the other. Using your example, what it does allow is drugs that would otherwise be too expensive to be used to save lives. Just look at Africa... The drugs produced by the big US pharmaceutical companies were being pushed in Africa, but no one could afford them. The result? Thousands of people died. THe use of cheaper alternatives has been going on for a while now and has saved a lot of lives. In fact, the big US pharms companies are now getting in on the act after they realised it can make them look good.


And I'm sure that is a gross over exageration. And I'm sure thaty they also have some very nice, law-abiding officials. Any government has corrupt officials in it (and this is what I hate most about politics - the liars, cheats and swindlers). Go and study some US political history. You might surprise yourself over how many corrupt officals that have been in it. I mean, even Hilary Clinton lied about landing under sniper fire when she didn't. hows that for honest?


That sounds very much like Capitalism, something which the US holds dear. And if you look at the people in power, you'll notice something.... They all know each other, they all went to the same universities and they're all well off, and their high level partners are also set up for life.... Sounds very much like what you describe for China...


And I'd like to see the US leaders living in the area that was hit by Hurrican Katrina in New Orleans, or in the scummy parts of Las Vegas, or in any of the areas in the US that are run-down and dirty. Oh wait, They don't do they? How's this for a double standard, asking the leaders of another country to something that the leaders of your country wouldn't do?


Exactly the same could be said of the US and it's poorest citizens.


Yes. All the Chines people I have met were very nice people. Thankfully I can also say the same about most of the Americans I've met, and most of the the other people I have met.

Damn there are a lot of arguments here!

Mightygoobi, you may be one of the few "Chinese Middle Class". These few live like the American Middle Class. You have to think from the perspective of some poor Chinese guy who got money revoked from him by the government. You have to think like the majority, not the minority.

And about the US and China's governments making people disappear: The CIA is supposed to look into other countries, not the one its in. While the CIA making people disappear is unacceptable is kinda defeats the whole "Land of the free" thing, you have remember that the reason they do it is because of George Bush. He's made the U.S. so paranoid after 9/11 that he could get away with doing something like that. As soon as he leaves office or gets asassinated by a person who hates him (one of 80% of Americans) things will change.

Okay, back to China.

Etrius

mad_axeman,
that was a bit confrontational and did nothing to answer the original questions. Woe upon us the day we must look to the USA to be the moral standard of the world. There is no need to compare everything to the USA nor any other country, but to objectively discuss the merits and flaws of the country in question.

There's certainly healthy and interesting political discussion here. Thank you for both the kind words and the strong criticisms. I won't fleeing the talk, and there is something more prioirity in my heart right now - obviously the earthquake - which I want to share some items a bit before we talk to Communism, Freedom, Human Rights, Government etc.

It's well known that Mainland China has disputes with Taiwan, Hong Kong and Japan at the high political level. From a 'common person' level, I am always so touched that every time we have a disaster, whether it is plane crash or train derail or earthquake or anything - it is Taiwan, Hong Kong and Japan that seem to always be the the first to arrive. We do not ask, they do not demand return - they just come, they give, they help and when it is over, they leave. Before we are even ready to accept help, they are waiting on the door with money, medical supplies, equipment, food etc.

Russia too is very regularly here and helping. I guess it probably helps that the older generation (who are often in high positions of power) speak better Russian than English or Japanese.

Singapore, often criticised for being a dictator, very regularly provides assistance. Of course it is small with much less resources, but it seems they are always helping and especially with technology and logistics and especially trained people. I guess they are fluent in both English and Mandarin that helps.

Just now, I understand the US is helping with providing satellite imagery to help find the earthquake victims. For that, even if you criticise China a million times for all the wrongs we do, I think we should be very grateful if we can even find just one more victim because of your satellite.

50,000 dead they are now saying. And probably much higher. It's so bad.

I will objectively discuss the merits and flaws of the country in question when other people do the same (which the poster I quoted was not doing). And I was no more confrontational than the poster I quoted.

As for original questions, he didn't have any. He had accusations and criticisms and however well founded, people shouldn't throw around accusations and criticisms without first checking that their own house is in order. And as for the questions of the first post - there aren't any as it's an open topic.

No country on earth really has it's house in order, you can always find a flaw with what is being done about something if you dig deep enough.

I think what really needs to used as the yard stick is the overall actions of a nation. as an Example, 1933-1945 Germany, Horrible history there, nothing redeaming during that time. 1945-1989 Both East and West Germany have good and bad points about themselves that can be pointed out 1989-present Germany has emerged as a weathervane concerning Human rights and international affairs...

so you could run around for years yelling about how alful the Germans are by constantly pointing out 1933-1945 and then highlighting only their mistakes after that. This would give a scwed view of the nations history in a very vary negitive way that would make some say "Why would anoyone support Germany about anything they say or do"

You could point out only 1989-present and have people writing sonnets about how wonderful Germany is..

You can do this for any country and the richer the history of that nation the more extremes you will find.

My case in point using America as an example.

Offical government policy United States: Give small pox infected blankets to the Native culture.. The result was a genoside that even Hitler commented about.

Official government policy United States: The Marshall Plan

Two extreams of conduct by the same government. So are we genosidal monsters or Godly saints of Pieity?

Pray tell... What exactly is "in order?" Do you have a static copy of the per civilization standard for qualifiying for an opinion? Or do you just adjust the parameters as the need arises?

To ProfCS101, you posted two very passionate comments which I want to respond. Because you wrote so strongly, I have tried to be very thorough in my reply to you.



If I may summarise the rest of your post, USA is good because it is free. China is bad because it has a dictator government and the citizens are oppressed, killed, tortured (although I am brainwashed into not knowing it) You hate the chinese government, and I am lying to defend it and all the Americans who believe are less intelligent than you.

With respect, your point of view is held not only by yourself, but by many of the internet. I've read similar thoughts on other forums. In this forum even I've read similar ideas. I see 'karma' points for "good reason for hating the Chinese government" and "hate the communist, damn communist". So I do not see you as a troll or a baiter but as someone making a strong and popular point.

You also made the time to not only put your thoughts once, but also reply to a post. Many times, I see "China sux!" and then the poster disappears. So I respect your consistency. Unsurprisingly, I am not agreeing with you - and disagreement can accompany respect for different views.

I understand you have a great pride for the United States. I think thats great - it is nice to see patriotism. From your writing is also a passionate hatred for China. What I don't understand is why 'love for America government' must also accompany to 'hatred for China government'.

So I'd like to explore the reasoning for your passion.



One possibility for passion is that China gives crap propaganda about America. You are welcome to read what China Ministry for Foreign Affairs, our media or simply talk to someone on a Chinese street about the US. Of course you will get a hundred different answers. But generally, I think they are very soft compared with other remarks I seen written about the US from other countries and even in here forum.

When the world was talking about Abu Grahib or Guantanamo Bay, China media was quite soft. I needed to read international media to find more and get more of the photos. As far as I know, we don't even have a Chinese word for "extraordinary rendition" but this word is used a lot in foreign press.

We read much about the positive side of Clinton, Obama and McCain - so much so that I think the are all excellent. It was hard to find any information in Chinese press about Clinton dodging sniper fire or Obama's priest.

Our young people eat American McDonalds, watch NBA. Our middle class want American cars. Our educated want to go to Harvard or Yale. Our Professors cite your supreme court. Our legislature models new laws on American legislation (our new company law with emphasis on directors duties and the fiduciary principle is taken directly from your laws). I personally respect American way of life even if it is different to my own.

So I'm not clear where there is the idea that 'China propaganda attacks US all the time'. Even today, we are thanking the US for the use of satellite to find earthquake victims and thanking America for the money donated for the earthquake.



One possibilty for your passion is that Americans fight and die for freedom, Chinese fight and die for dictatorship. Your two wiki links are to the American War of Independence from British and China's civil war between the Communist Party and the Nationalist Party.

My understanding of the American War of Independence is that US did not want to be taxed by Britain without representation in the British parliament. US wanted to keep the US money taxes for US politicians, rather than British politicians. I respect that this is a kind of freedom that US fought for, the freedom to spend your own money and make own decisions instead of giving it to another government.

The wiki on the Chinese Civil War is very long. I do not see the part which says "Chinese fight and die for dictatorship".

If I may provide an extra short and simplistic summary - two sides fought a Chinese civil war. One side had the label 'Communist'. The other side had the label 'Nationalist'. I use the word 'label' because the wiki does not explain fully what the two sides political beliefs are.

Each side felt they were doing what was right for China. Both sides did bad things to each other and caused lots of damage to the country. The side label Communist wins.

Perhaps you may argue that Communist policy was bad and Nationalist policy would have been better. And we can have that debate if you would like. But of course, rear view vision is always perfect.

Also, perhaps you may argue that Communist did very bad things to China after they won the civil war. I agree that Communist Party has done good and bad things and we could debate what is good and bad.

But I'm sorry that I do not agree with you that "Side with Communist label wins civil war" means "Chinese fight and die for dictatorship". So I do not understand how this can be the basis of "why do Americans hate Chinese".



I agree that Freedom is very important. I also think that it needs to be balanced on other things.

I believe that some american scholars says that even American Freedom is not absolute freedom. For example, you don't have Freedom to shout fire in the crowded theatre. A journalist can not say lynch Tiger Woods on a golf show. I can not bring a gun onto an airplane.

With respect to government, your own scholars also say that too much freedom is anarchy. There is freedom of speech, of action, of assembly but it is not infinite.

So there must be some line on freedom. To draw the line on where is the freedom appropriate is a very good question. Should I have freedom to burn an American flag in times square? Should I have freedom to say 'god damn america' in church? should I have freedom to riot outside the white house? These are all excellent questions to be debated.

But Freedom as a #1 Priority above everything else might be too far, isn't it? Otherwise, why not give you the freedom to shoot the president? or you to shoot me? Perhaps the better question is where to draw the line on freedom as a high priority but still give people the enough feeling of being free?

I would agree with you that America and China put the priority on individual freedom at different levels. I also don't think that just because we priority freedom at a different place makes one country better or worse than the other. Nor does putting the priority on freedom differently seem a reasonable reason to hate.



I understand your good quote comes from Mr. Henry talking about rising arms to fight against the British after Britain sends the ships to America to take back the colonies. It seems Mr. Henry spent almost 10 years, giving speeches, proposing legislation, using every political power he had to oppose British rule and tax. It seems it was only when the British ships were on the sea about to come in with cannons, did he give this speech that ends with the line you quoted.

The quote comes from a man who is pushed to the very edge, desperate having tried over and over and over again for tens years to get something done but his government stops him. And only when the government is about to bomb him with ships and cannons on his door, does he say "give me liberty or death".

If my government was on my door with ships and bombs and guns, I suppose I would be super angry and say something like "I don't care! Try and kill me but I will resist! Liberty or death!" as well. So I think his words are correct in his situation.

But, in my case, I don't think my government is going to bomb me. In fact, my life seems to be getting better. Since my life seems to thankfully be much better than Mr. Henry, I think our situations are not the same.







I think your point is China can't change the government by voting, but America can because it had the independant war. Although I pretend to complain, actually it is a 'fake' complaint and 'fake' freedom - actually I'm an obedient government robot. One day if I upset the government by going too far I will die. I am brainwashed with little commerical goods like TV and car and computer, but this is distracting from the power to change the government which is the real freedom to determine future.

Is the 'true' definition of 'freedom to determine my future' the ability to vote out the government? If that's the case, then it is true, we can not vote out our government so by this definition, we have not freedom to determine our future.

For me, if government can keep the street safe of crime, keep economy good, keep jobs available, rescue people when there are dying in an earthquake, then I feel I have enough freedom to determine my future. I feel no blockage in making money, finding a job, getting educated, donating money to charity causes, looking after my family, taking my girlfriend on a holiday overseas.

You say that I am brainwashed because of my "worthless crap" like computers and toys and sit at home eating rice. I understand the right to vote your government is a key issue for you. I guess that you are more interested in politics and government change that I. But just because I have a different idea to you, I don't think that makes me brainwashed or that I spend all day wondering in awe at my pretty rice bowl.

You have a desire for political activity. You "had the balls to FIGHT" for your government. Frankly, China has had so many many many civil wars, I hope the next one is not soon. If the government seems to be doing a decent job, well, I think the need to revolution is low. I guess if it is doing a very bad job, I may change my mind.

But as I've mentioned, since today is better than yesterday, I am hopeful tomorrow will be better than today. And I'm happy with the government continue with its things so I can continue with my things.

Though I can not change the government in the way you are used to through a voting election , I feel I can change the government actions in ways that are meaningful to me. I am not silly to think one letter to one Minister will completely change China tomorrow. But I do think that when I comment or blog or write a letter or make a phone call, in my own way, I am contributing to the change of the government. When 1 million Chinese comment on a topic, I do feel the government listens.

Therefore, I also don't think voting in an election is the only way to affect change in society or government.

I suppose I may be the tiny minority of Chinese special middle class that feels 'free'. Perhaps "real" Chinese population still lives in oppressed tortured fear with no chance to make any comment. They get kidnapped when they 'truly' complain and I am just a special exception.

So don't listen to my words because I am biased - I warmly invite you to come into our forums, read our blogs, visit our country and have a look. You can visit our University Centers on Human Rights. You can come to our Government Schools and audit the classes on - most classes are public.

Of course I can't guarantee what you will hear. I am guessing it is not 1.3 billion people uniformly saying 'China government is perfect' and looking in rice bowls playing with toys. I am guessing you might hear some complaining. You are welcome to see how the Chinese government is changing, reforming, down-sizing, upgrading. Some of the changes are good. Some of the changes I strongly disagree with. Others have comment and complain. And I am guessing that not all of the complaining people have been tortured or murdered.



My understanding is that Americans deeply value your right to vote and choose your national leaders.

Often I am reading about the need for 'voter turnout' - how many ordinary Americans come to vote. I understand that this year, there is exciting because voter turnout is very high.

I did a google and the first entry indicated that voter turnout in the 2008 Presidential Primaries seems to be 2.1 - 52.5%

http://elections.gmu.edu/Voter_Turnout_2008_Primaries.htm

And voter turnout in the 2006 General Elections seems to be 28 - 61%

http://elections.gmu.edu/Voter_Turnout_2006.htm

So, even at the high point, doesn't that mean that only 5 or 6 in every 10 people vote? Now, if people have the right to vote, but only let's say 6 actually do vote, I am not clear how this means "If Americans had no chance to vote and choose their leaders nationally, many would be in the streets in murderous revolt". I may be reading that table wrong and I welcome you pointing out where it is not accurate.

But even if there are 4 or 5 people in every 10 that do note vote, I presume all Americans would say that the government listens to them a little bit and at least partly considers their thoughts.

So by no means do I suggest that the right to vote is unimportant for you. Nor do I encourage taking it away. I simply stating that even if people do not vote, they still can have an impact on government.





I'm not clear exactly where the numbers come from - but for now I will accepting your figures. I am guessing you are referring to the period during which Chinese people died in famine under Chairman Mao. I agree it was a terrible time in Chinese history, many died, and I think there's little doubt that any policies leading to national famine are awful.

You may also be referring to the cultural revolution - something which Ooglyboogly very honestly spoke about with regarding his family. Again, I agree it was a terrible time - a time which wiped out a whole generation of intellect and again many died.

So it's important that we make sure those times are never revisited. One way I suppose, is to overthrow the government in a violent revolution. Another way is for the society to become more educated, more demanding of the government, have more and more pressure on the government in non-violent ways. I guess both ways have advantages and disadvantages. I would not agree that the ONLY way or the BEST way to stop history mistakes from coming back is to have "the balls to FIGHT" in a violent revolution.

_________

Concluding, one important point I'd stress is that it's important to me not to 'bash America', just as I think it's unproductive to 'bash China'. I recognise so many many things that America does well - as mentioned before, we copy, use and cite America regularly here in China. There is no doubt that America is THE superpower - and I'm not sure China even wants to challenge the title. Frankly, there are places in China right now with no running water. I don't think we are very close to 'superpower' status.

When ProfCS101 you come out with very strong passion as to why we should hate China, you'll understand that I come back with strong passion as to that hate seems difficult to understand.

I started this post query with the suggestion that I can love country A without hating country B. I think it is very obvious that I have a deep pride and love for China. And I have that pride and love whilst having no "hate" for US. I don't think there needs to be a competition as to "my country is better than yours". In fact, from an outsiders point of view, I suspect US is more comfortable to live than China. You are more developed, more richer etc.

But my love my China does not stem from the 'toys' or money or the government. China is my home. I have no intention to leave. I have no desire to compete with you. I want to stay here and make things better in my own smallest way. And I would like to debate on inconsistency between outside world comment and my real world.

I don't think China is perfect. Nor do I think America is perfect. We may have different views on 'freedom', on 'communist' and 'democracy', on 'rights'. And we can debate them. We SHOULD debate them. I understand that I have a lot to learn about the way you do things over there. China has a lot of things to change. And I respectfully suggest that there are things that China can teach and share as well as learn.

Welcome your reply.

Away from all this politics and earthquake sadness, some friends and I joked here in Beijing on '10 bad chinese tourist abilities' tonight over some drinks. I thought I could share them.

1. When the plane takes off, it is important to go to the toilet 20 seconds after the plane takes off while the seatbelt sign is still on.

2. On the plane, it is very important to bring as much luggage as you can. the plane likes it when you bring a huge suitcase on board. Other customers also are very happy to move their bag so that you can put your suitcase in a convenient position.

3. Once the plane lands, it is important to immediately turn on the mobile phone, stand up and take the luggage out of the overhead bin. This must be done while the plane is still driving. It is especially important to completely ignore the flight girl who tells you to sit down four times and wait for the plane to stop moving.

4. After spending 3 month salary on a plane ticket to go to an exotic foreign land for a magical adventure, the first place to go is Chinatown.

5. At the Chinatown restaurant, look at the menu, order food, and then complain loudly to everyone hearing that the food is too salty, bland, expensive, spicy compared to the food back home.

6. Every single Asian person can speak fluent Mandarin. It is right to get angry at the Korean-Japanese who was born in California and lived in America all their life, if they do not speak Mandarin.

7. Even if they can not speak Mandarin, it is okay, just speak louder. They will instantly understand.

8. Even if they still do not understand, just write down your message in Chinese characters and show them the piece of paper. This will make them understand.

9. All locals exist to give directions. They have no meaning except giving directions to Chinese tourists. It is best to ask the person who is speaking on their mobile phone just as they get into a taxi - these are the most helpful people.

10. the best way to respect a religious building or an ancient library is to talk as loudly as possible and use many camera flashes.

Hmm... it was a lot funnier when we were a bit drunk.

@ mightygoobi: you're right that 你不是唯一一个中国人

I moved to the States just as I was about to enter Chinese middle school (end of 6th grade I think), and I envy you're eloquence. Despite having studied here through the entire American education system, I don't think I can come close to your abilities in argument.

@ anyone out there bashing China for its "poor human rights record" or its "totalitarian" government "oppressing" the people, honestly, if you have not been to China, and the only source of China you hear is from Western media (especially from American conservative media like Fox), then I can 99% guarantee you that you do NOT have the full picture. How can you, when you have only heard from ONE side of the story?

Growing up in China (and mind you, this was at least ten years ago), I can with full honesty say that the only thing "Communist" about the Chinese government is just that, its form of government. Long gone are the days when the government issued ration tickets, when you get a job assigned to you, and when you held that job for life (an "iron rice bowl" as it was called). Now you can argue that my relative youth at the time had a naive worldview, and you might be right. But the fact remained, I was as uncertain as the millions of other Chinese students about my future, about where I was going to school, where I would end up working, how am I going to support my livelihood.

Even today, when I visit China, it would be an adventure to find signs of Communism in Everytown, China. There are no armed guards patrolling every street, there are no Big Brother-like posters of "Dear Leader," there are no police wearing CIA style earpieces listening for signs of popular discontent, handcuffs at the ready to arrest anyone who had the audacity to speak bad about the government. Instead, you see McDonald's, you hear Western songs, you see the fashionable teenagers, and you see everyday people going about their everyday lives.

Are there injustices by the Chinese government? Absolutely, just as there are for every other earthly government. Do we Chinese have the same level of political freedom as the Western democracies/republics? No, though we do have the power to effect change. I just wanted to clear up the fact that China is NOT the oppressive, Orwellian terror state so often believed by those who have never been there.

And on the "10 worst Chinese tourist habits" post above, I ROFLed when I read that.