"And for Forgiven, and any interested, the reason for the 6 (plus one) days of creation ? It is a picture of the history of man. Days are prophetically related to thousands of years. It has been approximately 6000 years since creation, which will be followed by the 1000 years ruled by the Price of Peace. (the day of rest)."

So... the Earth is only 6000 years old? You really believe that?

And where does it say in the Bible that 1 day = 1,000 years?
Maybe I am misunderstanding your post. You wrote "It has been approximately 6000 years since creation,"... then wonder why I believe that the earth is only 6000 years old. Are YOU saying that it's been 6000 years sice creation as well?
Please clarify, so that I will correctly understand your comment.

I see plenty of evidence. Just look around. I guess it all boils down to where you place your faith.
I can't "see" the wind, but I can believe in it's existance. I feel it on my face, I see the effects of it on the environment, etc. Just because it can't be seen, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Hey everyone... I hope i didn't poke into a nest of wasps when quoting Abiogenesis. just wanted to answer the question. And for forgiven.... how about random convergence? Think of basic atoms wabbling around and buming into each other.... and if they like each other perhaps the will make a nice little molecule...

Enternjc,

As a skeptic, I am always open to new evidence and would never tell someone to shut up just because I don't like what they say. The reason I don't think that ID is science or even has anything valid to say about biology is because I've seen no compelling evidence. You say that there is some. Could you please elaborate?

Forgiven,

I didn't say that I don't believe in things I can't see. I don't believe in things for which there is no evidence. I believe in the wind not because I can see it, but because I can observe its effects. I don't think that looking around is sufficient evidence to believe in a transcendent being. For me to believe that the whole universe is evidence for a creative force, then I would need to be shown that the universe could not have come about naturally (that is without a creative, purposeful mover behind it).

I don't agree with evolution, but I'm going to stop my dumb attacks against it, and all you should stop your silly attacks against the Bible. Just stop. It makes you look silly. It's equivalent to me attacking evolution by saying its ridiculous to believe an ameoba sprouted arms and legs and here we are today.

The same can be said of your self-suggested knowledge of the Bible by stating that if you work on Sunday, you should be killed. You remember history? How before the US became independent, we owed tax to Britain? Do YOU pay tax to the UK now? No? Perhaps the law changed? Fancy that. If you'd read the Bible, you'd understand.

God didn't force Pharaoh's heart, is specifically says he ALLOWED Pharaoh's heart to be stubborn. It specifically says that Jehovah DIDN'T for Pharaoh to free his people, and that way he was able to convince Pharaoh that he was God and don't mess with him.

God hasn't forced the Jews to be blind. On the contrary, 2 Corinthians 4:4 states that Satan, the god of this system of things, has blinded the minds of unbelievers. If you'd read the account, you'd see that a lot of Jews were too wrapped in traditions to be believers of God anymore.

The Bible also does not support Creationism. Creationism believes that the Earth was created in 6 literal days. That's bogus. Paul even confirms that we are STILL in that seventh day of rest.

On a side note, Forgiven, you ask where Bible says one day is a thousand years, it's in 2 Peter 3:8. Not to say that the Earth was created in 6000 years. Because that would mean that the seventh 1000 years should be long over. Really, it's a figurative use of time.

I'm asking that pretty much everyone on the side of evolution, don't misquote the Bible. You don't know what you're talking about in that regard. It's just silly when someone calls the God of the Bible a literal-death-god, because that means you very obviously haven't read:

Ezekiel 18:23 - "Do I take any delight at all in the death of someone wicked, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, and not in that he should turn back from his ways and actually keep living?"

Ezekiel 18:32 - "For I do not take any delight in the death of someone dying."

Proverbs 24:11 - "Deliver those who are being taken away to death; and those staggering to the slaughter."

2 Peter 3:9 - "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you, because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance."

Of course I have. I've read the Bible, along with the Koran and several other religious texts, through and through. The OT details a God killing millions, rape, murder, and other acts that make the complaints about violence in video games by many "Christians" seem relatively absurd. It _is_ a death-god.

You go by the NT, as I would assume Christians do, it's not so bad. Put up your sword again into its place: for all those who take the sword will come to death by the sword.

Well, reading the Bible as if it was just another novel kind of gives you a different impression of it, than if you read it while believing it to be the very Word of God. People will not see God in the proper perspective by just reading it like any other book. You have to actually read it with an open mind, and allow God to speak to you through those words, believing in the God who inspired those words. Otherwise, it will not make any sense, and may even seem foolish. Apparently, some read it with the mindset that it is only a book of stories. So that is all it will ever be in their mind.

Lol, somebody should put up a sign here that reads:

"Do not feed the trolls"

People who fight over evolution, people who fight over God. Sad. Really Sad.

You guys fighting are fighting over the same thing, the Past. It is pointless to argue over the past, as it is set in stone, and the only thing to argue about is how to name it. Was it evolution or God? Does it matter? Suppose we find the answer, then what? Will it change humanity? Will the wars end? Will poverty, hunger and decease stop? Will we solve any of the problems affecting us now?

No, we will just find another stupid reason to fight one another. And that is the real problem we should be worried about.

Still, who bet this thread will reach 30 pages by this Friday?1?! I bet a six-pack of beer!!

Ah, yes, the Word of God tells me lots of things, for example, about how to treat my sex slaves:

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment" (Exodus 21:7-11)

Oh right, and His laws on the proper rectification of rape:

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

And our Lord Rambo XII on genocide:

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9)

He's kind of a jerk. But you know, as long as we make some arbitrary excuse about not reading it properly, it's all cool brah.



That could be used as a justification for any number of things. Learning our origins and enhancing our knowledge of exactly how we got here is infinitely important.

this .. is ridiculously pointless
the two sides of the argument are irreconcilable. this is just unproductive conversation often resorting to personal attacks on peoples' beliefs and or intellect...prove me wrong.

Is death penalty considered murder? How about death during warfare? Murder? Not by most. Most people understand that when you grossly break the law, the death penalty is assigned. To refuse this is to refuse logic and the way of things.

Regardless, there was no rape encouraged by the Old Testament. There was punishment for rape. There was no murder encourageby the Old Testament. There was a punishment. The majority of the texts I quoted about Jehovah not wanting people to die come from the Old Testament.

Take the example of Sodom and Gomorrah. Full of gross acts towards God. But Abraham pleaded with God, and worked him from sparing the cities if there were 50 good people, down to 40, to 30, eventually to just 5 people. Jehovah God doesn't want to kill people. If you think so, then you have an uneducated understanding of the Bible.

Please, you clearly don't have a full understanding, and I'm asking that just as I can't make very educated claims about evolution, you shouldn't about the Bible either.

How can you claim to know god exists if you can't even ask the question "how he came to exist" in the first place? How can you claim the bible was written when you think it was and accurately recorded the literal word of your god when you don't know whether its authors even used their real names, and its content was decided by a bunch of bureaucrats? Observing that evolution took place does not require knowing what started it, just as seeing a ball fall does not require that you know whether it was thrown or rolled off some place high. But just as observing the falling trajectory and spin of the ball can give you clues about what caused it to fall, so can observations of evolutionary change give possible hints about the origins of life.


"Evolutionists" have answers, you just don't like them; and you may have answers, but they are still unfounded assumptions.


Not really. To believe in your god, one must believe that an old book that was: subject to bureaucratic compilation, translated to and from several languages, written during a time when most of the populace was illiterate and encouraged to stay so by the clergy ruling them, and a time when punctuation consisted of "periods" that did not delimit sentences but only where to pause (how long was determined by the heaviness of the mark); one must believe that this book actually managed to maintain the literal word of your god to this day. Not only that, but one must make up reasons to keep the book from contradicting itself. Like killing disobedient children and not eating shellfish is only a mandate for Jews. Believing there is no god takes about as much faith as believing there are no unicorns. Believing in evolution does not require one to disbelieve in god(s), only to disbelieve in a literal interpretation of an ancient text.


Actually, the point is "moot", and one can believe in the bible, but not that it is literal, and still believe in evolution. Personally, if there is(are) god(s), I would hope they would be poets and not the guys that write stereo equipment manuals and recipes.


Actually, the facts revealed by science do not require people to want to believe them. They are what they are whether we like them or not.


You must have went to a pretty abysmal school. The whole reason he set sail West was to find new, hopefully shorter, trade route to India...which they knew was to the East of Spain. That's why they thought Native Americans were Indians. A good portion of the population may have believed the Earth to be flat, but that portion of the population probably couldn't write more than their own name...if that. Look at our education system today, and we still have people that believe the Sun orbits the Earth, or that the Sun is the center of the universe.



Please, do tell the details of this research. What was your initial hypothesis, and what evidence did you find to support or contradict it?

No i have not. And that's why i don't discuss biblical scripture with you. And that's why you should study Evolution and Abiogenesis and understand that they are 2 different theories about 2 different things before you criticises them.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

Look. You all can believe what you want to believe. I only have this to say to the ID camp: When the time comes that your ID theory can't save you from common diseases because you failed to understand how germs evolve in response to antibiotics (and thus create a proper antibiotic), natural selection will surely help displace you from the gene pool. You'll be the first against the metaphorical wall.

I find the people who preach ID while bathing in the nectar of modern science disgusting. This is why I have respect for the Amish and the religious folks who plainly do not use the fruits of the biologists' labor, or know how to keep their beliefs in their own churches (I know that they don't necessarily subscribe to ID). For everyone else who preach ID: "stop stealing my penicillin".

I think Forgiven is funny

I, too, am a believer. I like the Pastafarianism. And I believe in Russels Teapot. You don't? Then you didn't read the Wikipedia articles about these two with an open mindset! To you with your closed mind they will always be just texts but if you read them with an open mind the Pasta-God will talk to you through them!

A little more on topic:

Creationists trying to prove evolution wrong to get their stupid ideas into schools is just silly. Even if they were 100% right (which of cause they are not) evolution being wrong doesn't prove their point. Their theory isn't suddenly right, it is simply not linked to evolution.

And as pointed out by the Flying Spaghetti Monster: If there should indeed be some kind of creator then it is certainly NOT the christian god. If there is one creator then there is an infinite amount of possibilities of what that creator is and what he wants us to do and what he wants to be or do and so on. The probability that by chance this creator has anything to do with the Christians or the Bible is quite exact zero.

So even if such a creator exists, trying to do his bidding is just silly since he never told you what he wants (I don't see him sending me an email complaining about my lifestyle). All you can do is guess what that creator wants you to do and hope you did the right thing. Which is, as I said, silly.
So even if we assume there is a god then acting like there is no god is the logical consequence since we do not know what this god wants us to do and as long as we don't know that it shouldn't influence the way to act.

And please don't say "But the Bible says god wants us to do X and Y!". The Bible was written by men. The Bible changed a lot over the centuries. And why would the Bible of all books be the one to contain gods word? Why not the Koran? Why not any other religious book? It's the same argument: The probability of the Bible being - by chance - the one "true" book is simply zero.
The only thing that speaks for the Bible is that MANY people believe it. But many people also believed that the earth is flat - which didn't make it true.

Oh my, now you're claiming to understand a supposedly omnipotent and omniscient being?


Hahaha, Christians haven't been persecuted for centuries. In fact, they've been doing most of the persecuting...and before you say "they weren't real Christian" look up the "no true Scotsman" argument and why it doesn't work.


Actually, that large number of people generally lack a belief in a god or gods, not actively disbelieve in one. Granted, I know the type that fit what you are saying are easier targets, but it doesn't change the fact of the matter.


Wow, the depth of ignorance demonstrated with this is amazing.

And ignorance is even more dangerous. And a closed mind is dangerous as well.

Your turn.

Numbers 31:7-18
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.


Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he (God) seems pretty encouraging in these texts.

So... which is better... MAC or PC?

...says the one who believes evolution states we evolved from monkeys

Mac, of course! Unfortunately most games come out on the PC, i love to build my own computers and don't have any use for a laptop, so I'll stick with my PC for now.
I'll just wait until the Mac evolves it's gaming potential.

.... You don't see the offering of peace beforehand? Plus, that was warfare. These were people who were practicing debauchery in Jehovah's eyes, and needed to either change and surrender, or die. That's not murder. Especially when you consider that God gave them life in the first place, in order to act decently, not grossly.

Stick to your evolutionist arguments. They better suit you.

What about Scientology and Ralienism(sp?)?


You know, I've seen statements like this many times; but I have never seen it backed up anyone stating it. Would you care to try?


No, "we" all get that. I think you and yours need to realize that the Bible is not a science book.


Well, which is it?


Yes, scientists don't want to consider unfounded unfalsifiable hypothesis, but I wouldn't call it a problem.


Why should evolutionary theory have to answer "why"? Do we expect that of any other science?


Not really. First, the students would have a solid grounding in epistemology, and then to be fair, every possible source of this intelligent design would have to be discussed from Yahweh to the FSM and aliens. Finally, how evolution and intelligent design contradict each other would have to be discussed. (As has been said before, it is a false dichotomy unless ID is religion specific.) Then discussing all this religion in a state run institution by a human being in a position of responsibility with an innate bias one way or another would probably be legally questionable.



On that we can agree, especially logic and epistemology. It seems everyone thinks arguments from consequences and ignorance are valid.