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Just a Rant on Military Rank

Just a Rant on Military Rank

Ignore it if you like

Not only is this a rant, but it's a ramble, too.  I just got back from 9 days aboard a ship, and every time I go to one of these things, I see stuff that for me, at least, is a clear indicator of why the gears are starting to grind more often.  Morale on most of the ships I've been on is very low, but guess what?  It isn't because of the job itself.  It's something else - something deep.  So, in order to deal with it, I just started writing in a word document about some little things that bug me.  It isn't well written, but I publish it because...well, because that's all I ever intended this blog to be for.  For me to spew whatever I wanted to now and again.

 

Enjoy.  Or don't.




Once upon a time, men were conscripted into armed services.  They were conscripted by various means - law and societal pressure being the most prevalent.  Yes, there have been times when lots of people joined for a cause sparked by some international event, but for the most part, people don't grow up aspiring to kill others or be killed by others in a war.

 

These days, the military is different.  People join it voluntarily, but their choice to do so is varied.  Most do not actually want to go to some war and put their lives on the line for what they believe.  Hell...many would be hard pressed to tell you, and defend with anything that remotely resembles reason, what exactly it was that they DID believe.  The truth of the matter is, the military is a place to turn for many people that have no other marketable skills.  It's also a good place to go do a quick 4 years and walk out with a lot of college money.  The military offered me, as a musician, far more than the guy that ran the bar down the street.  That guy would have me play four hours a night for a pittance and no future.  So it isn't a stretch that I joined.  It was a good business decision for my family.  For our survival.

 

Over the 17 years I have been in, I have heard a lot of rhetoric.  Things like "Mission first, people always," and a whole bunch of lip flapping about "honor, courage, and commitment."  And then I walk by the closest 15 parking spaces to the commissary which are reserved for O-6 (high ranking officer) and above and it makes me wince.  Not because I want to park closer, but because it is so clear to me that the words "people always" are Orwellian in nature.  It’s “people always, but me first.”  In the military, all are created equal, but some are more equal than others. 

 

It is necessary in the military (and I would argue in ANY business) for some person to be definitively in charge - to lead the way ahead.  But why is it necessary to magnify the value of those in charge to the point that they get better parking privileges? (And hopefully you realize that parking is just an example of a whole trend of other perks that the "more equal" set gets)  It has been said that "rank has its privileges" but that is an outdated counterproductive way of thinking in today's age.  We are one team, set to accomplish one mission, and no person on that team should receive one iota less treatment in something that has nothing to do with that mission.  This includes who gets to sit where on a plane, who gets to board the plane first, who gets the first meal, what time liberty expires, best parking places, best housing, and etc... 

 

The people that join the military, though they do so for varied reasons, are preached to from the outset, that the military is one big team.  That every person doing his or her job is of equal importance, and they're right.  With downsizing of the military and limited funds an increasing political camping ground, every person doing his or her job IS of the utmost importance.  It is for this reason that I suggest lines between ranks need to be erased.  It isn't so that Private First Class Schmuckatelly gets to burn less calories on his long walk to the commissary door.  It's because if we're all the same team, then why are clean lines of differing values of individuals on the "one team" being drawn?  The answer is simple.  So that some team members can be more equal than others.  In other words, it's a lie.

 

Admirals live in large houses with servants, people to cook their meals, and a wealth of people, military and civilian alike, to do their bidding.  They have people to screen their e-mail.  And I grant - they have some rough decisions to make, and sometimes the things they do can be the deciding factor between failure and victory.  That’s why they get paid more money.  Why do they need more compensation beyond what they're paid if they value a "one team" concept so highly? 

 

Here's the real truth.  While they’re spouting off about the one team, they secretly harbor the belief that they deserve more than just their paycheck over the guy whose job it is to clean the toilets.  It's "Mission first, people always, as long as I get mine off the top."  And why do I say this?  Because I believe in honor, perhaps foolishly, and I have the courage to say it, and I'm committed to the idea that all people are created equally.

 

I remember one time me and three guys in my band were flying back from somewhere on an Admiral's plane.  And there were cooks on the plane!  And they were serving breakfast like it was a restaurant!!  And they started to serve us and went to me first because I outranked the guys I was with.  I said "screw that...serve them first.  I can wait."  It wasn't that I was trying to be noble.  It's just that the idea that because I had some extra stitching on my sleeve made me more valuable than they were made me sick to my stomach.

 

The fear I have is that rank-based respect will be our undoing.  It may seem trivial to the average reader that I resent having to call a man "sir," with the clear implication that I am "not a sir," to a guy who was in diapers when I graduated high school.  But I have seen the effects of this rank based thinking, and it isn't good.  People deserve respect based on their merits that they prove over a period of time, and it doesn't matter whether they are enlisted, officer, or how many years they have in.  If their character, and especially their competency, is such to warrant the respect of the people around them, they need to be compensated as such.  And I don't care if it's an 18 year old Seaman Recruit just out of boot camp who happens to be a ninja at his job or if it's a venerable Admiral who's seen a world that's hurting and has had to make some tough decisions along the way.  If the "one team" paradigm is going to work, it means that each team member has an equal value.  Extra perks that accumulate with every 10 cent stripe you add to your costume – er, I mean uniform - are an indicator that “one team” is just more rhetoric.  And though the financial compensation may differ due to the gravity of the situations dealt with and the responsibilities that must be born along with those decisions, the individual team members will not be at their best on the "one team" if they are taught to perceive themselves as "less than."  Cloths don’t make the man, I hear.  Well rank doesn’t either.

 

Rank is archaic.  It's unnecessary.  And it makes people on the "one team" feel like they aren't a major part of that one team when, in fact, they most definitely are.  Once upon a time, it worked and it made sense.  Today, not so much in my opinion.

209,524 views 105 replies
Reply #76 Top
Thank you Asaxy.

In my experience, in dual military couples, the female spouse typically has a great deal of disdain for military wives who are not also serving (and honestly, I can understand why...there is no comparison between being a wife/mother/Soldier and being a wife and mother). It is really uplifting to read what you have to say about the experience of being a military spouse.

I appreciate it. It is something that is hard to understand the scope of until you have experienced it yourself. I know you are busy, but I would LOVE to read an article from you on that topic! You articulate it so well and you have incredible insights regarding the whole experience.

Thanks again. You made my evening. :)
Reply #77 Top
JHU is at the top of the stack in my area of study


Are you a scientist? Your friend graduated from med school, right? What do you study? A research officer like the dude from I Am Legend?
Reply #78 Top
A research officer like the dude from I Am Legend?


I never thought about it that way before. But now that I AM thinking about it, haha, Mari, you are BAD ASS!!! LOL.
Reply #79 Top
Would it satisfy you if I said that what your son went through was far more difficult than what any other service member has ever gone through,


No TW that's not my point. I'm comparing VMI to a regular college ROTC program and there's a huge diff. As far as comparing VMI to basic...I said I'm not sure what the diff would be exactly. As far as what they're going thru in Iraq? No comparison.

I have two brothers who went into the Navy. One was enlisted in Nuclear Subs and in for 10 years. One was an officer and a pilot and was in longer deployed during the Gulf War flying P3 Oriens. They both told me the stories. My dad was enlisted in the 50's. I have a nephew who went to the AF Academy but dropped out within a year.

I can only go by what the boys tell me. My brother told me some stuff about being put into a small box (he's over 6 ft), pounded on and thrown down a hill in basic. It was terrifying to him. It wasn't easy. Is that the same as VMI? I'd say so, but how can one compare? My Dad will tell you what Brian went thru was tougher than what he went thru already. Right now, I'd say Brian's got it easy (he's gonna kill me for saying that) :p 

At VMI they couldn't have a radio, a cell phone, a car, a job, food outside of the cafe, a coffepot in their dorms or even civilian clothes other than a bathrobe. They lived in cement cell blocks, slept on wooden beds subject to sweat parties in the middle of the night that was terrifying, took cold showers running outside to do so in their bathrobes and hoping to God they didn't run into an upperclassman when they did so. This went on for a good three years. As a senior they were allowed a cell and a car.

How many drop out in the six weeks of basic in comparison to a tough all military college? I'm not sure.

KFC, be proud of your son but don't for a moment think he is any better than another officer or enlisted service member who has chosen to serve their country. Where you go to school is not equivalent to who you are. You still have to earn the respect.


I agree whole heartedly!



Reply #80 Top
KFC, here's the thing. You only know what your son went through, and you are trying to extrapolate and compare that to things you don't know about.

I know of things my husband has done and experienced that I don't share here. And I won't.

This whole "my x is better than any y" thing is silly.

Reply #81 Top
Father's Advice:
Do not join the Army. It is a lot like playing World of Warcraft with your life. You will always have to listen to some dimwit who knows far less than you do, just because he has been in longer.


Tell me one career field where you don't have to listen to some dimwit who knows far less than you do, just because he's been in it longer.
Reply #82 Top

Just because a paradigm exists doesn't mean it should.  It continues to exist because so many people say "Well, that's just the way it is."

 

Once upon a time, the Swiss were known for their watches.  Best watches in the world, supposedly.  Then some guy got the bright idea to make this new fangled thing called "Digital Watches."  The Swiss pooh-poohed the idea and wouldn't have anything to do with it.

 

The Japanese on the other hand had no such paradigm about what made a watch "good."  Can you say Seiko?  I knew you could.

 

Paradigms for the loss.

Reply #83 Top

So...yes, I am like the research officer depicted by Will Smith in "I Am Legend" but much less buff or good looking.

 

And fortunately, she doesn't have a penis, either.  This was part of the agreement before we got married.  She can't have a penis.

Reply #84 Top
I study proteins...specifically proteins that appear or disappear when liver cancer develops


Do you perform a lot of "microarrays"? Have you ever come a conclusion that directly led to a cure for a certain type of cancer?
Reply #85 Top
One of the most rewarding things I have done is mentor students. One of the high school students contributed significant work on one of our projects and she is listed as one of the authors.


Wow, I wish I had had an opportunity like that. I had to teach myself science in high school from a boring textbook, and I am thankful for the textbook.

A lot of my scientific peers at Emory are Asian minorities. I think the tendency of American mainstream culture to lend itself towards anti-intellectualism hurts our scientific muscle. If we keep it up, soon keepn' it real will be a chapter in a history book.
Reply #86 Top
I don't agree with this at all. Been a mom to a kid who bravely hung on while watching his classmates drop like flies during his four years at a prestigious but not "The Academy" military school. It's not like any local college at all. In fact they COULD NOT hold jobs during the year. They started with a class of 400 and ended barely with 200. It was a brutal 4 years. Check into the Rat Line sometime and see how very unlike it is from other ROTC schools. They had to literally crawl thru a mud trench and up a hill to break thru the line while the upperclassmen kicked them down a hill. When they made it up the hill, covered in mud, they were no longer considered Rats. They broke thru the line. They were treated like rats all up until this very memorable day.

I knew one mom who called the school and demanded they feed her son. Of course she couldn't give his name. All our sons lost a drastic amount of weight that first year. It was like prison. It looks like a prison. Cement everything. Not cushy at all. They slept on wood. It was gut wrenching for a mom to know (or not know) what was going on behind those doors. It's NOTHING like other ROTC schools by a long shot.


KFC, of course you don't agree with it. You listened to his suffering for four years. You are proud of him (and should be) and don't want to be told it was all for nothing. It was for something, it was for graduation.

Every military college has their war stories.

I'm not taking anything away from these kids, what I am saying is FACT..the AF considers them second pool. ALL EQUAL. That's just the way it is.

In the class of 2006 for VMI there were 20 pilots commissioned for the AF alone some with 2.1 GPA's. There were maybe 7-8 for the Navy. Basically whoever wanted a pilot slot got one. My son had a pilot job lined up for him but he didn't want it. For most ROTC programs around the country outside of the Academy and VMI you had to be in the #1 slot to be given this same status. Certainly not 7-8 or 20 would be considered


Ya know I love ya, but you are dead wrong. For example, out of 18 ROTC grads at Wright State this year, 9 of them got AF pilot slots...that's 50% of the graduating class. And this is fairly typical every year. The same thing with Cedarville and University of Datyon ROTC grads and all three of these programs are under one ROTC program..which means about 30 pilots are coming into the AF from this one single program a year.

I understand a bit what you're saying but after seeing what my son went thru I understand the pride with the ring thing now. They deserved it after the hell they went thru making it all the way while watching many who did not. It was tough. Quite often they puked their guts out after being forced to drink warm milk and run up and down stairs...just for fun.

The Ring is their memory stone. To me Tova it's similar to the OT Fathers who would pile rocks up after a battle as a memorial to what they had gone thru. It's a precious reminder to them as well.


I am sure they earned their rings...but that was college, that was THEN, this is the MILITARY and its now...time to move on and move up, or get left behind. And it doesn't say much about a person's current career when they focus so much on what they ONCE did.

Don't get me wrong, there is a time and place for reminiscing, my point is, the more they do it, the less successful they tend to be in our experience.

Because of age and time it's alot easier to make the higher ranks for an Academy or ROTC over an NCO.


Actually, age and time has nothing to do with it. Everyone no matter which pool they are sucked from goes through the same rank/time structure.





Reply #87 Top

 KFC, if you check out most AF literature....you will see what I am talking about....here for example is a specialized AF Pilot Training Program....you see they classify the LTs coming the same way I did above...with the three pools.  They even put them in order, all the manuals and schools list them the same way.

It's not my policy or opinion, its just the way it is.

"Life as an Officer in Undergraduate Pilot Training

You will be in training with fellow officers from across the nation, Academy, ROTC, OTS, and AMS graduates.  Air Force UPT trains all active duty as well as Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve pilots.  In addition, student pilots from dozens of allied countries from around the world attend UPT and you can expect foreign national officers in your class."

All I am saying is this....There is a def line of demarcation between playing soldier in college, and actually being one.  Talking about playing soldier with a bunch of guys who ARE soliders is a joke.

Lts who have a hard time adjusting to this side of that line, make poor leaders, and usually are not allowed to stay long.  (That is our experience and my opinion.)

 http://www.baseops.net/militarypilot/upt_life.html

Reply #88 Top
Ya know I love ya, but you are dead wrong. For example, out of 18 ROTC grads at Wright State this year, 9 of them got AF pilot slots...that's 50% of the graduating class. And this is fairly typical every year. The same thing with Cedarville and University of Datyon ROTC grads and all three of these programs are under one ROTC program..which means about 30 pilots are coming into the AF from this one single program a year.


just pretend we're on the phone talking........hahaha...I should call you soon.  :LOL: 

So how am I wrong? Tova....I said this:

For most ROTC programs around the country outside of the Academy and VMI you had to be in the #1 slot to be given this same status. Certainly not 7-8 or 20 would be considered


I said most. But even then that does seem high. Sounds like a good program. Do you think it has anything to do with it being in WP territory? Access to the base and all? How many got the pilots slots say at UMO? V-Tech? or Yale? But even then compare all what you said added up and compare it to VMI..one school with only 200 graduating students. I only know about 27 thru the AF and Navy from VMI. Not sure about the Army.

I read that 50% of the AF pilots come out of the AFA and the rest come out of all the other ROTC and OTS programs across the country.

I read this regarding ROTC programs. Most of this article has to do with accepting females and is dated, but you can see the high regard the Pentagon has for VMI's ROTC progam.

PENTAGON AT ODDS WITH WHITE HOUSE ON CITADEL, VMI
The federal government is running military officer training programs at Virginia Military Institute and The Citadel even as it pursues litigation accusing the military schools of illegal discrimination.

The Pentagon's continuing acceptance of and cooperation in training VMI and Citadel students, sources on both sides of the litigation acknowledged, seems to fly in the face of the Justice Department's protracted and expensive effort to get women into the schools.

But a Defense Department spokesman, Air Force Col. Douglas Kennett, last week reaffirmed the military's intention to keep Reserve Officers Training Corps programs at the schools unless a court declares they are breaking the law.

Those programs each year produce about 200 new officers, out of about 7,000 coming from ROTC programs nationwide. Ninety-four VMI grads were commissioned in 1994, fourth highest among ROTC programs; The Citadel, with 105 graduates awarded commissions, ranked third overall.

Because both schools have a record of producing high-quality officers, the military would resist suggestions that it withdraw ROTC from their campuses, Pentagon sources said.

Consider that VMI has very small graduating classes, about 200 or so.

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1995/vp950902/09020405.htm

I am sure they earned their rings...but that was college, that was THEN, this is the MILITARY and its now...time to move on and move up, or get left behind. And it doesn't say much about a person's current career when they focus so much on what they ONCE did.


who's saying they are? I was just responding to your flashing the rings around comment. They wear them and are proud to wear them but does that mean they are flashing them around by just wearing them? Is it like us with our wedding rings? Do we flash them around too in front of the single gals to make them feel bad? I don't. Do you? But yet we still wear them.....me 26 years later.

Actually, age and time has nothing to do with it. Everyone no matter which pool they are sucked from goes through the same rank/time structure


so, if you're enlisted for say 10 years going to school as you go...and decided you want to be commissioned....do you start as Captain? If not, are they not at a disadvantage age wise for starting later in order to get to those higher ranking positions? Wouldn't most, if not all get out before then? How far up will your husband go before he retires?










Reply #89 Top
"Life as an Officer in Undergraduate Pilot Training


I understand exactly what you're saying....that's why I said this:

Officially while the AF Academy does have the most presteige VMI has also for years been fighting to be considered on equal standing and for the most part are considered just below the Academy in standing.


maybe I'm listening to too many VMI grads out there but I've heard this quite a bit...maybe it's VMI pride...don't know for sure.

Also my brother who graduated from a small all Navy military college in Maine and was commissioned in the 80's. He ran into Annapolis Grads who got positions he should have got all things considered. He knew and felt the elitism coming from his branch. The Academies definitely take care of their own. He felt he had to work twice as hard as an Annapolis Grad in order to secure a given position.

All I am saying is this....There is a def line of demarcation between playing soldier in college, and actually being one. Talking about playing soldier with a bunch of guys who ARE soliders is a joke.


and I agree with this as well. Who's saying different? I'm not. My whole point was living breathing ROTC 24/7 compared to ROTC in a State College where they might have to get up early before classes to run for an hour.





Reply #90 Top
so, if you're enlisted for say 10 years going to school as you go...and decided you want to be commissioned....do you start as Captain? If not, are they not at a disadvantage age wise for starting later in order to get to those higher ranking positions? Wouldn't most, if not all get out before then? How far up will your husband go before he retires?


Depends on the job. Some fields start as a Captain (thinking medical here)..some start as a 2LT and some as a 1LT..depends. Age doesn't have anything to do with it. My husband was 28 when he became an officer. He still went through the same time limits for each rank, and still does. You have to be a certain rank for so long before you are considered for the next one. My husband will stay until he's ready to get out...right now it looks like about 30 years total time in service....but who knows?



who's saying they are? I was just responding to your flashing the rings around comment. They wear them and are proud to wear them but does that mean they are flashing them around by just wearing them? Is it like us with our wedding rings? Do we flash them around too in front of the single gals to make them feel bad? I don't. Do you? But yet we still wear them.....me 26 years later.


Of course wearing them isn't flashing them...however, many times in the AF when officers are in charge of troops who can't wear jewelry because of their job (safety issues) they will forgo the privilege themselves....when they don't, it is seen as flashing. That's one example, I think it was pretty clear who I was discussing....wearing a ring isn't the only thing, its one of a couple behaviors that seem to come together. That's why I said...

The first two pools, AF Academy guys and the ROTC(other military school) guys are bragging, fluffing feathers, flashing school rings like its a football game on a Friday night.


Reply #91 Top
maybe I'm listening to too many VMI grads out there but I've heard this quite a bit...maybe it's VMI pride...don't know for sure.


Yeah that's probably it.  ;) 

Look if my son went to VMI and did as well as yours, I'd be hootin and hollerin and doing lots of bragging. I mean, its a tuff school and the ROTC program there is top notch no doubt.

Any kid who gets through it should be proud imo.

That's not the issue.

Let me see if you can understand it this way.

If two guys have to get up a mountain, and when they reach the top they will both be 2Lts.
One guy climbs up the rocks until his fingers are bloody, his muscles sore, and its very challenging.

The other guy also climbs the mountain, but he chooses the side that isn't as steep, so while it is difficult, its not the agony of the other guy's trip.

They both reach the top.

The AF is the top.

Now imagine how silly it is to hear the one with bloody fingers talk about how much better he was, or better prepared to stand at the top because he chose the hard way up. Or how silly the other guy would be for thinking he was smarter for choosing the most expedient and least painful way.

The AF doesn't care how they got there. They're numbers filling slots for about the first six years. (Meaning if they die, they will be mourned, but quickly and easily replaced.)

Climbing was the pre-requisite to enter...all the people who have flown from the top and come back to train the babies to fly think get annoyed when the babies talk about how they got there....when the real deal, the real hard deal, is yet to come.

If the AF REALLY believed there are "special" colleges then the guy with the bloody hands would be given something MORE than the other guy...but nope...they're equal. Plain and simple.

Does that make sense?

I know its hard for you as a mom whose son did so well in VMI to see it from the reality of the AF...and its hard for the guy with the bloody fingers to believe the other guy is considered his equal...but that's the way it is.

Who's saying different? I'm not. My whole point was living breathing ROTC 24/7 compared to ROTC in a State College where they might have to get up early before classes to run for an hour.


Whose saying different? Didn't you read that book, um, I mean response I wrote...haha..I know you did...the people saying different are the very Lts coming in with so many PRIDE issues...I covered it ad nauseum and won't do it again here. Pride seeps into every single thing a person can say or do, especially when its a personal pride that the Lt feels is not being honored when it so obviously should..

IMO, its all blowing smoke..the whole Citadel, Academy, ROTC thing. 2000 officers were slotted last year. VMI was less than 100 of those, the Citadel just over 100. ALL the rest came from AFA, ROTC, and OTS.

"Taking care of their own" now actually encompasses more than their college buddies, "their own" is taking care of the people who work for them, and until they reach the point of seeing past the me me me, what can I do for me? What can you do for me? Then they won't be good leaders imo.

ROTC programs in colleges are a little more than running early before classes. Most of the kids in the program here did four years of JR ROTC through highschool, so they are more than prepared when they get to the college level.

And ya know they get lots of scholarships..$100,000 scholarships for engineers, and other non rated slots. They certainly don't come in as a LT and think they're better because the AF paid them $100,000 to go to school. Because once they get to the top of the MT....its time to fly....

I want to be clear, I am not talking about your son. I don't know how he does on the job, from what you say and from what I read in the newspaper he's doing GREAT. I am sure he will have a full and long career.

My observations are about our experience in the military, and how we know the AF to be. It is not the same in every career field, but non rated fields tend to run the same way.



Reply #92 Top

Just a brief message from your friendly OckhamsRazor.joeusuer.com staff.

 

KFC, I noticed a double post of yours and took the liberty to delete one of them.  Twas a longish comment, and I tried to check it carefully to make sure it was an exact duplicate, though I might have made a mistake if it wasn't.  Please look and accept my apologies if it wasn't and I goofed. 

 

It's the ONLY time I ever delete comments, and even though maybe someone *might* double post on purpose (as in, I guess it could happen), I don't think that was your purpose.  I find most people do it by accident and then wish they could delete it themselves, so for that larger percentage of people, I am the granter of wishes.  Hope that's cool.

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled conversation - which is already in progress...

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Reply #93 Top
keep in mind that time in rank does not equal promotion. Time in rank just means that I can submit my package to the selection board. I may or may not be selected. Selection is based upon a number of factors but it is most heavily constrained by the number of positions available at the rank I am eligible for.


Exactly. Thank you for saying what took me forever and never really was clear.

In the AF right now the top 5 officers....there are 4 AFA Grads, and one prior enlisted OTS grad.

They're all pilots.

I believe all these guys are over 20 years in service...heh.

Good luck to you Asaxy...whew, I am TIRED just thinking about what you're doing.

Thank you for serving, you too Ock. :) 

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Reply #94 Top
the whole Citadel, Academy, ROTC thing. 2000 officers were slotted last year. VMI was less than 100 of those, the Citadel just over 100. ALL the rest came from AFA, ROTC, and OTS.[/quote]

yes. But that's alot coming from VMI because they only graduate about 200. Many of these officers (from the quarterly book I get here) go up quite high in the ranking.

I know its hard for you as a mom whose son did so well in VMI to see it from the reality of the AF...and its hard for the guy with the bloody fingers to believe the other guy is considered his equal...but that's the way it is.


You seem to think something I'm not thinking or believing to be so. I don't have a problem with what you said here Tova. I started out comparing the regular college ROTC programs with very intense programs such as VMI and the AF Academy and there are differences....major differences. I think I'd know considering I spent four years watching what Brian and his buddies went thru. I spent as much time as I could on the VMI campus. It's nothing like the other colleges. It really is like a prison. You should go sometime. Maybe when your eldest gets ready for college..... ;) then we'll talk!!! It was not like going to any regular college ROTC programs.

And (as an aside) as for the pat KFC on the back cuz she's a proud mom couldn't be further from the truth. I have three boys. I am not prouder of one over the other two. I don't sit here and say how proud I am of my middle son for his accomplishments in the military. No, in fact it's probably more to the opposite (as Brian would attest). I believe my boys are doing well because we didn't ooohhhh and ahhhhh over them. They were expected to do well. We set the bar high. Now it's more like breathing a sigh of relief...got that over with and I'm proud of all three equally but differently.

I do understand once they all get out they start out as seconds and all are considered equal. Got it!

But if at the top of the mountain there was a VMI General and he had to pick one of the two...he's going to be loyal to his brother rat. That's just how it is.

Pride seeps into every single thing a person can say or do, especially when its a personal pride that the Lt feels is not being honored when it so obviously should..


Pride is rampant in the military period no matter the branch. It's all about being built up. The spiffy uniforms, shiny shoes, the parades and flags and awards....all of it helps build this pride.

KFC, I noticed a double post of yours and took the liberty to delete one of them. Twas a longish comment, and I tried to check it carefully to make sure it was an exact duplicate, though I might have made a mistake if it wasn't. Please look and accept my apologies if it wasn't and I goofed.


no prob....I was going to say something but it was getting late....I looked for a way to delete myself but couldn't. I figured you'd take care of it...thanks! I hate to repeat myself...lol.

I will be 41 when I receive my commission as a LTJG, or O-2, for you non-Navy types. I receive credit towards my retirement for my enlisted time but my age does not hurt me in the least. I am still able to serve to 30 years and my time in rank is the same as all other officers


I understand all that but what I was getting at was for you to do 30 yrs you would be 71 and say one who was commissioned at 22 he would only be 52 so age/time could be a factor for achieving higher rankings. Once you get past the 50 year old mark anything can happen healthwise that could limit your service whether it be from your POV or from your Superior's POV.







Reply #95 Top
But if at the top of the mountain there was a VMI General and he had to pick one of the two...he's going to be loyal to his brother rat. That's just how it is.


No it's not. You say that like its a fact and you have never lived it. You hear it from someone who has been in the AF what? Two years?

If that were true KFC, then one of the top five in the AF right now wouldn't be an OTS grad, there'd be no way. It's nice talk, and there is plenty of that....but those slots are reserved for pilots, no matter where they went to school over 20-25 years before..

But if at the top of the mountain there was a VMI General and he had to pick one of the two...he's going to be loyal to his brother rat. That's just how it is.


That's just it...in theory yeah yeah,,,but this isn't AF reality.

A general isn't choosing who to accept and who not to accept. Working for a general directly may get you some face time, but doesn't do squat for helping you make rank faster, or anything else. You still do your time in each rank, and move up as slots open up if your qualified.

So what if you went to the same college? The General is bound by the same time/rank/integrity issues as the rest of the AF. So yeah, there's lots of talk but in the end its about slots, whose rated and non rated. Rated career fields get priority for command positions Period. (That's pilots and navs, etc)

If a Lt wants to believe someone is gonna pick him/her because they have the same alma mader...um, ok. Doesn't hurt anything, certainly doesn't alter reality.

If this talk were close to the truth than not one single VMI grad would ever make the top 5 slots in the AF. Not one single Citadel or ROTC or OTS grad...because the AFA has the most pilot slots and are offered the highest commands 9 times out of 10. They'd keep everyone else out wouldn't they? Because the LTs coming from the Academy say the exact same things.

But that's not the reality. Check out the top 5 officers in the AF now and in years past. That's where the rubber meets the road.

Now as an aside.

You are the mother of a VMI grad who doesn't want to accept the reality of how the AF does business...or you seem like you don't when you say things like...they will always pick the rat, that's how it is...but its not how it is...and the current ranking officers in the AF are proof.

Now imagine a Capt or Major trying to teach this to a new LT who refuses to believe it? They are trying to teach the new guy how the military really operates, not how they learned about it in school...but the kid just keeps on with the "well I talked with so and so" or "but this capt friend of mine said" whatever.

When the rubber meets the road, it doesn't matter how many Generals you think you know. The guy whose trying to teach you and will be RATING you is the only one who matters. Because a bad eval given as a wake up call is still a bad eval and ruins so very many future opportunities.

Believe it or don't.

I don't have a dog in this race.

But I have watched it for 22 years and its not rocket science.





Reply #96 Top
In the AF right now the top 5 officers....there are 4 AFA Grads, and one prior enlisted OTS grad.


Can you give me their names? Because I can tell you that the current Chief of Staff of the AF right now is ROTC Texas A&M. General Mosley. The #1 guy. So something has got to be wrong with your math. Who is the prior enlisted OTS General you're speaking of? I want names!!

Also I'm sure you know that General John Jumper was the last Chief of Staff? Do you know where he graduated from? VMI. ROTC.

Also since we're speaking on Chief of Staffs dd you know that out of the last six...none were OTS? None. Three were ROTC and three were AF Academy.

are the mother of a VMI grad who doesn't want to accept the reality of how the AF does business...or you seem like you don't when you say things like...they will always pick the rat, that's how it is...but its not how it is...and the current ranking officers in the AF are proof.


After Brian laughed at this (in a nice way) he wanted me to ask you this question:

How competitive is it to be on a General's Staff?

Brian walked into a gym with his VMI shirt on and was invited by a Colonel he met at this gym if he'd be interested in a position on the General's Staff. Why? Because the Colonel is VMI. Brian gets stopped all the time from VMI higher rankers. There is a bond there even if they graduated 20 years ahead. My brother told me this stuff happened all the time in the Navy as well.

Tova, really I don't think you understand the bond that these guys have coming out of these Academies. They look out for and protect their own all the way up. Doesn't this make sense? Really? I actually know this up close and personal by spending those times at VMI. The older VMI grads were always there all the time. It's like they never leave. They come and go to all the ceremonies that VMI holds. Jumper was always going back to VMI.

When Brian was at VMI his senior year they all, but this one kid, had job offers after graduation. THis kid had a 2.2 GPA and when an engineer from some firm came to the school looking to employ a newly graduated Engineer he took this kid with the 2.2 GPA at a salary of 75K. Why? Because the Engineer that came to the school was a VMI grad and he wanted a VMI kid. Happens all the time. He'd rather have this kid than some kid with a 4.0 from Yale. Brian isn't making nearly that and he groaned telling me the story. He couldn't believe it.

When the rubber meets the road, it doesn't matter how many Generals you think you know. The guy whose trying to teach you and will be RATING you is the only one who matters. Because a bad eval given as a wake up call is still a bad eval and ruins so very many future opportunities.


and who rates you if you're on the General's staff? A Colonel or a General? But you know as well as I that not only do politics enter into these things but as humans they can be very subjective in their evaluations. The Academies protect their own. No matter what you think Tova...it's good to have friends in high places.

I'll be writing about a spy named Eli Cohen soon. Familiar with him? He's probably the most famous spy of our time. He was born an Egyptian Jew with forged papers making him into a Syrian Arab. He was (a Jew no less) dating the President of Syria's daughter and because he had it in with the Syrian Military almost brought down the whole military when he was found out. He had friends in high places. In the end when he was found out he got hanged by Syria but that's beside the point...lol.











Reply #97 Top
KFC, age might be a factor if I was a line officer. This is not the case. I will be a staff officer and my work is in a laboratory. I can happily conduct research until the day I die...extreme physical exertion not required.


well that should help! All I'm saying tho no matter the job when you're in your 60's it's not the same as being in your 40's.

My husband is an accountant and is 53. It's not extreme physical exertion either but the long hours are taking a toll on him where before it was nothing. You know what I mean?

Also, you assume that I start my count to 30 years when I am commissioned. Remember, I am an enlisted service member and I receive credit for the time I have served. I will not be 71 when I reach 30 years


Yes, I was counting from then but...you will be commissioned as a second right? So in order to work your way up how easy would it be for you to hit those higher ranks compared to if you went in commissioned? Time wise? Age wise? That's all I'm saying.

For instance you'll be a first at 43-44 (congrats btw) :CONGRAT:  and my son is a first at 24. That's a 20 year head start. Doesn't that make a diff? When you both retire what are the chances (anything can happen I suppose)that you would retire at a higher ranking than he?

Reply #99 Top
Can you give me their names? Because I can tell you that the current Chief of Staff of the AF right now is ROTC Texas A&M. General Mosley. The #1 guy. So something has got to be wrong with your math. Who is the prior enlisted OTS General you're speaking of? I want names!!


Look it up, its easy enough to find. Find the top five officers in the USAF, I think there was even a link on the site I posted yesterday.

You are making some wrong assumptions here and if Brian knows so much about the AF he shoulda corrected them by now.

The top FIVE leaders in the AF are not all Generals. Just being a General doesn't mean you are leading people. Some literally are paper pushers. There are Generals over labs, hospitals, etc. They lead that specific thing, but they don't affect AF policy like the leaders of the AF do and in fact the AF is starting to give those jobs to civilians.

For example, lots of General slots in labs are now given to civilian SES. They are CIVILIANS with the equivalent rank of General. They certainly aren't making AF policy or getting the golden leadership jobs. And they couldn't care less about what college an officer under them went too. But they STILL WRITE THE EVAL ON THE OFFICER.

Brian walked into a gym with his VMI shirt on and was invited by a Colonel he met at this gym if he'd be interested in a position on the General's Staff. Why? Because the Colonel is VMI. Brian gets stopped all the time from VMI higher rankers. There is a bond there even if they graduated 20 years ahead. My brother told me this stuff happened all the time in the Navy as well.


And? This is nothing special KFC. In fact, a LT gopher gets handed his lunch daily bu the gophers on staff that outrank him. Talk about being a pleb. Are you sure this guy was saying it because he LIKED him?

Being a gopher (an on staff exec) for a General is not exactly a good career move, especially as a LT (and Generals know this). LTs need to be learning their JOB so they can lead in it in a few years. If you want a General to affect your rank because you can't make it on your own merit (maybe the field is stiff competition)..then be his gopher when you want to make LT COl and a General's name will almost guarantee promotion. Now, its just a waste of time. Go to the Pentagon and what do you see? Lots of Majors and Lt Cols being gophers.

Any mentor worth his salt will have told Brian these things.

Tova, really I don't think you understand the bond that these guys have coming out of these Academies. They look out for and protect their own all the way up. Doesn't this make sense? Really? I actually know this up close and personal by spending those times at VMI. The older VMI grads were always there all the time. It's like they never leave. They come and go to all the ceremonies that VMI holds. Jumper was always going back to VMI.


I don't think you are getting it. I don't know how to say it any clearer. Brian went to school and played military with a bunch of guys. They played king of the hill in the mud, slept in cells, went hungry, got it.

Now he's in the military and guess what? THERE IS A WAR going on. You talk like college was the apex of his career, he'll never bond with anyone else like that.

I'm thinking its a pretty novice thing to say. I can't imagine a closer bond than a bunch of guys getting shot at together. And until he's lived on MRE's I won't even go into not eating together.

Do you know how stupid it sounds to hear someone talk about college buddy bonds when real life and death bonds are forged in the military? Not to mention the training he HAS YET to go to and if he thinks VMI was tuff...hahaha....well wait till he gets it AF and Army style (lots of training to go to war is now combined).

Has Brian considered that by the time he comes up for Major all the senior slots will be full of COMBAT veterans? All this talk of taking care of their own is done by people who have never been to war? Do you honestly believe an entire board of war vets will promote someone because some of them went to the same college over someone they sweat and bled with?

If you believe that, if he believes that...then I have nothing else to say.

An entire board promotes, not one person. What are the chances the entire board will be VMI? I'll tell ya....none.

I don't know what he does exactly, but isn't it lab related? Scientists don't run the AF. Do they even get combat experience? Pilots, for one, do.

By the time promotion goes before a board, anyone with combat experience LEADING combat experience WILL get the slots.

A scientist may make Gen maybe even a two star, and preside over a lab, but they don't make the real leadership roles no matter where they went to school. So unless he plans on cross training....


When Brian was at VMI his senior year they all, but this one kid, had job offers after graduation. THis kid had a 2.2 GPA and when an engineer from some firm came to the school looking to employ a newly graduated Engineer he took this kid with the 2.2 GPA at a salary of 75K. Why? Because the Engineer that came to the school was a VMI grad and he wanted a VMI kid. Happens all the time. He'd rather have this kid than some kid with a 4.0 from Yale. Brian isn't making nearly that and he groaned telling me the story. He couldn't believe it.


THANK YOU for making my point. See VMI is a college with an ROTC program (which it can lose and still be open). You can go to VMI and never have any intention of serving. Can't say that about OTS and AFA, only about ROTC.

and who rates you if you're on the General's staff? A Colonel or a General? But you know as well as I that not only do politics enter into these things but as humans they can be very subjective in their evaluations. The Academies protect their own. No matter what you think Tova...it's good to have friends in high places


This shows how much you have to learn. Up until Major (and in some fields even then) you are given a promotion rating. A definite promote, promote, or don't promote. The DPs get promoted automatically, even if a little ol 1LT signs their eval...the promotes may or may not depending on slots, the do nots of course don't.

Why waste a General's signature with rank in which it won't matter? That's why waiting until Major or Lt Col is best if you can't make rank any other way. But even then, Brian's not in a rated career field is he? They aren't going to let him lead sections of the AF when its not been his job to do that up to that point. Doesn't work that way. And a General's signature may or may not carry weight with the board...the more war time he's seen the more weight typically. The General of the hospital's signature isn't going to carry the same weight as a Col Wing Commander whose flown various sorties in the war zone.

Now, I started to talk to my hubby about this...and he shut it down. The odds of a LT in a non rated field even being in twenty years from now isn't worth his time right now.

And he's heard it all before so his answer is...Time. He will see.

All Brian has to do is look at his career plan (his mentor can help him find it)...he will get to see in black and white AF leaders aren't coming from his field.

I will take hubby's advice and bow out now because I love ya, even when you're wrong. Remember Brian's been in a whole two years. He has yet to be tested in war. He has yet to be tested in anything. And if he's like every other LT ever right out of ROTC, half of what he thinks he knows is wrong.

Heh.

But I do know you raised a smart cookie, and he'll figure it all out.
Reply #100 Top
In the AF right now the top 5 officers....there are 4 AFA Grads, and one prior enlisted OTS grad.


The top FIVE leaders in the AF are not all Generals. Just being a General doesn't mean you are leading people. Some literally are paper pushers. There are Generals over labs, hospitals, etc. They lead that specific thing, but they don't affect AF policy like the leaders of the AF do and in fact the AF is starting to give those jobs to civilians.


That's why I asked you to list them. You said there are 4 AFA Grads and one prior enlisted...and when I look at the Chief of Staff (surely he's one of the leaders?)...he's ROTC and you didn't even mention that. I don't think you're talking Bush, Cheney, Gates, are you? I wouldn't think you'd be thinking politicians.

Talk about being a pleb. Are you sure this guy was saying it because he LIKED him?


Sure it's about being a pleb. Brian knows that. He also knows what comes about by doing this. The question is how competitive is it to be put into such a position? As far as this Colonel liking him? No. He didn't even know Brian. Let's say he liked his shirt. Brian had not met him before that. He didn't say he was taking him up on this offer. It's just an offer at this point.

Any mentor worth his salt will have told Brian these things.


Brian has mentors.

Has Brian considered that by the time he comes up for Major all the senior slots will be full of COMBAT veterans? All this talk of taking care of their own is done by people who have never been to war? Do you honestly believe an entire board of war vets will promote someone because some of them went to the same college over someone they sweat and bled with?


Brian has already put in for Iraq for just this reason. He wants to go there. I don't want him to go there. He's also applying for TPS. How many AF 2nds have gone to Iraq? I honestly don't know. But I'm thinking he's not nearly the only one not to have gone yet.

By the time promotion goes before a board, anyone with combat experience LEADING combat experience WILL get the slots.


I agree.

See VMI is a college with an ROTC program (which it can lose and still be open). You can go to VMI and never have any intention of serving. Can't say that about OTS and AFA, only about ROTC.


Yes, know this. Been saying this all along although they will never lose their ROTC program and stay open...it's all about tradition. VMI is also considered a Senior Military College meaning all dress and all involved in ROTC. The whole college. The diff being that not all enlist at VMI. About half do.

And he's heard it all before so his answer is...Time. He will see.


tell your hubby I'm hoping I can meet him..... ;) maybe we can all sit around the table and continue this discussion....lol. Has he met Brian and Amanda yet?

he will get to see in black and white AF leaders aren't coming from his field.


that's why he wants to go to TPS. But he's really looking at all his options right now.

I will take hubby's advice and bow out now because I love ya, even when you're wrong. Remember Brian's been in a whole two years. He has yet to be tested in war. He has yet to be tested in anything. And if he's like every other LT ever right out of ROTC, half of what he thinks he knows is wrong.


ok but Brian is not like every other LT right out of ROTC....he's proven that part already...he came out as the #1 Distingished AF out of VMI, was honored in DC and has already been up for engineer of the year award....but my brother had been in (Navy) for 20 years as an officer and is retired now. He's told me lots of related stuff....his mantra is..."that's just the way it is." He says that over and over. He finally left because he said he could never beat the Naval Academy no matter how hard he tried. He could never overcome the Academy. He was studious enough but not smart enough. He wasn't socially smart enough to put up with the crap he said.

It didn't matter how you performed and Ock would like this....he said the Navy is terribly unfair and corrupt in its very nature. Not sure what the diff is between the two...he seemed to think the AF was better than what he experienced in the Navy. I hope so. He actually sued the Navy and won! Killed his career advancement, but he got to fly P-3's.

But your husband is right T....time will tell. He sounds just like my husband who rolls his eyes at this stuff. Ha! Let's make a date in 5 years to pick this up again......and if I said something wrong....I'll own up to it.