1.03 Balance and the Rationality of Casual/Elite Polarization

..I was going to make this a reply in HunterX's thread, but it kind of just grew out of hand. I'll just start by addressing one of the main issues in that thread and this forum in the past few days, the idea of Elite vs Casual. A number of people were talking about why anyone should look at balance because that was how elite players manipulated the game into their favor at the expense of the casual gamer.

Onto Balance....

Well, for one thing, bad balance makes everyone unhappy. Note how dramatically the forum exploded once the various issues were fetted out.
Now look at how 1.02 went. In that patch, the balance changes were actually good. There was some minor grumbling about how LRMS> everything else, but nothing major. Nothing on the current scale. Siege frigates were weakened, everyone liked that. I'm not sure anyone really disliked the 1.02 siege frigate.  The Blackmarket issue was irksome, but nothing out of the ordinary for an RTS.

But 1.03 introduced a whole new bag of rats. Serious, highly visible, easily exploitable balance issues.

I mean, there's no use denying they don't exist. That's just foolish.

But what exactly is this division between elite and non-elite anyway? It's stupid. The balance changes in question don't even remotely begin to affect how elites and non-elites interact. In fact, maintaining status quo will bring about -more- bad blood, because it is precisely the 'pro' players who exploit these imbalances to the maximum effect.

Increasing balance only serves to level the playing field. If the patches were doing something relevant- like adding new 'special abilities' or increasing playspeed or vastly improving the tactical manuverability of all units- then -that- would move the game in the direction of requiring more skill to play.

Making it so Unit X is cheaper than Unit Y and does more damage doesn't really do anything but affect balance across the different factions (And affect how many Xs are built over Ys). It creates a distinct 'moral' choice- to use these overpowered units, or not? Many players, on a matter of principle, will not, as they view it an oversight by the Testing process and not meant to be in the game. This is usually the case.

It's no secret that patch 1.03 was nothing short of a public relations disaster, at least in terms of the forums. Everyone had approved of the listed 1.03 changes, but were extremely dismayed to find a number of rather unpleasant 'undocumented' changes.

A number of posts by the devs have revealed rather odd notions. For instance, the notion that the TEC was one of the weaker races? Uhmm... Did they forget that the TEC has LRMs, a strong economy, and excellent scouting capabilities? I'm not sure anyone thought the TEC was a weak race, especially seeing how many people play it frequently. It's not like the Advent or Vasari had considerable advantages (Other than Dark Fleet). I'm not sure if it factors in, but it is certainly disconcerting.

Bad balance kills a game in more ways than one, and this is an example how. Just look at the stupid fighting that's occured over the last few days- Exactly what else do you plan to do other than rebalance; summarily throw out everyone who brings it up, focus entirely on single player, and ignore multiplayer ever, ever again?

Well, yes, certainly that's an option. I don't think it would make many people happy to see a vast majority of the Sins community up and go, much as we find certain people EXTREMELY vexing. It would just mean eventually Single Players would stumble upon the exploit in their own time. It would still be there.

No. This elite/casual nonsense doesn't stem from any substantial concerns, but the terrible realization of truth.

The so called 'elites/TINY MAJORITY/.001' were absolutely, completely FRIGGIN RIGHT. And it kills me (and I imagine a number of you) that this is true. Go ahead, you've tried the strategies. We're all upset they pulled the wool on us, demolished a patch that had so much potential in a matter of not days, but hours.

We're upset that maybe without them, we could have played a little longer without being hampered by these exploits. Lord knows, the dev team certainly did.

Maybe that's not your motivation. Maybe you saw sins advertised as a responsive 4x/RTS hybrid. Stardock is a great company with good support, Galciv 2 being a fantastic game. You expected, that maybe you could step into this game without it being ruined by 'competetiveness' and here they still are, those irritating 'elites' killing the game by zooming in on the balance weaknesses and making it entirely impossible to play the game online without using them yourself.

And here it is, staring you right in the ugly face, when you come up against the exploits in question- and you can't do anything about it.

That pretty much sums up what upset me about this patch. But the fundamental detail of what you are missing is that balance exploits and bugs are /exactly/ what skews the game in favor of these elites, their willingness to use them in a no holds barred game- and that by eliminating these exploits and bugs, that moral gap is -closed- enabling casual and competetive players to peacefully coexist.

Frogboy's example with the flash tank in TA is oft cited. I think we all know the game would be better without such exploits; elite players get enough advantages with ridiculous practice hours and APM and dirty social tricks like clan ganking without programmatic bugs and design implementations that seem off to help them out.

To those opposed to balance, what exactly are you trying to push otherwise?
-Prominence towards mods?
-Brand New Single Player Features?
-Improved AI?
-Technological fixes?

Do you think by improving balance, the devs are somehow 'sacrificing' their capabilties from one field to another? Play balance is acheived by adjusting unit values and then playing the game to test it out. Adjusting unit values takes approximately 20-30 minutes to design the stuff and recompile the code. Improved AI is done the same way by messing with unit weights (Unless you are introducing completely new behavior routines, which is a might more difficult, but still involves recalibrating weights). Technological fixes such as networking issues are another monster altoghether, and probably the most timeconsuming.

Playing out the game- well, quite frankly the Testers are going to be playing it all the time anyway to test out new features and kill bugs, so there's no time lost there.

As everyone who makes MODS knows, introducing the balance changes is no effort, it's the testing and reaching consensus that takes the most time- most of this is done explicitly BY the playerbase in question. It's the administrative, patch pushing nonsense that really makes it difficult, the potential for the next 14k patch to kill the game for certain users, result in incompatibility, blah blah blah.
And that's -exactly- what gets people riled about balance. We all know we could get it done ourselves in 20 minutes flat with notepad, it's just that none of us has the collective clout to actually -make- everyone else play the same game we are like the devs.

To that note, I propose an old idea to be made new.

Frogboy has said of himself that he was a top ranked player of TA, now does anyone recall the game, Total Annihilation Kingdoms?
The commercial and critical reception weren't so hot, but the devs' interaction with the playerbase was stellar, on the level of Stardock's interaction here, or dare I say, more so.

TAK came out wildly unbalanced. The one faction, Aramon, was so bad that they had to 'skip' Tier 1 units to have remotely any chance of winning, and even that was a stretch.
They later released an 'addition' called Darien Crusades- basically it was a Total War style map where players would conquer territories and such- TA had such an analogy with thier Galactic War map or whatever it was called.

Anyway, participants in this Crusade also served a second purpose- to test new patches on an almost -weekly- basis. The patches were small things that tweaked unit balance. Community members conducted tests, and created their own mods, submitting the results to the devs and new suggested changes. They worked on a cooperative level I haven't seen...well, since the death of Cavedog (Mind you, Cavedog died due to the break up of her parent company, not through any deficiency in the games department).

This philosphy was also followed by TA and the Galactic Campaign map (I think we all remember the craziness that occured when the FARK came out) . Of course, TA and TAK also regularly put out new units for play, which generally increased the player bases' tolerance for failure....Something Ironclad might want to consider, but I doubt is feasible.

What was the result? An extremely long lived game that forged a community, that while it has moved on, still maintains tangental contact today. A community that forged mods and pretty much defined 'User Modification Community" for a great many years. While that legacy lives on in SupCom, GPG's ties with microsoft and larger publishers legally subject it to a number of restraints when creating patches and interacting with the community.

Stardock is unhampered by this. Of course such a move requires man power, which is not easy for a small company. Even a minor IT worker (Such as a Community Handler) requires a decent 40k+benefits for a fulltime job. Appointments within the community, especially at a volatile time like this, can create resentment.

Somethings can be done to remove the need for a handler- such as:
-Post a constant 'development log' that changes frequently and is up for transparent debate. Include all changes, including discrete unit values, so that users can create pre-patch 'balance mods' that test these changes.
-Encourage mods, and at least unofficially support mods that do implement the proposed balance changes to satisfaction.
-Regularly patch in newly proposed balance changes in a short period of time, and NOT being afraid to frequently reverse them.

This one would take some effort
-Create an alternative 'game mode' that implements the newest, latest balance patches, while slowly phasing in 'Old changes" as they stand the test of time.

..And ultimately, such a move isn't neccessary as long as balance remains at a reasonable level. Currently, it isn't. The gameplay is remarkably skewed towards the TEC and people who exploit the blackmarket and LRM spam.

This is a really bad place to be. These exploits are known, creating a gap between those who are willing to use them (The 'Elite') and those who are not ('The Casual'). Only by removing these exploits, and creating a situation where the 'Elites' programmatically MUST follow practices viewed sanitary by the casual base..
Such as:
-strengthening/cheapening defenses for less rushing
-increasing the benefits for unit diversity
-making targeting enemy units more efficient than targeting enemy infrastructure
-allowing economic expansion empire building to pay off more
-reducing the benefits of micro and APM

..do we create a game friendly for everyone to play.

Yah. Some hardcore players might call this 'noob modding' , but I doubt many people here will disagree (as long as it doesn't dramatically increase required playtime!). Many highly successful games, name Supreme Commander, Kohan, Rise of Nations, and (to a small degree) Age of Empires, have incorporated these changes, making for dynamic and interesting game play that allows multiple strategic styles and encourages the use of many different game assets.

And programmatically, this takes -little- time, only marginal adjustments of unit values. It's the testing that's the kicker. You can make 'seperate' single player balance, but you'll have difficulty getting results, primarily from the fact that multiplayer tests can come away with data reports from 1 or more players per game, and single player...only one.
That said, single player balance==multiplayer balance. It's really a matter of tweaking the AI to use build orders and create the same units as a human does. As I said, if the AI used LRM to the proportion it does Siege Frigates and kill orbital structures and caps instead, I think we'd have alot more complaints.

And yeah, before anyone calls me out, I was Emergency Patch kid, one of the first crazy posters to get this thing started. I apologize for helping kickoff a virtual forumwide flamewar, but it was going to come. I still have faith in Ironclad to make things right, but I still can't stand the 1.03 gameplay. From what it sounds, no strategies or what have you have actually been developed yet to defeat TEC-Trade-LRM-Kodiak madness. I hope 1.04 comes soon and fixes it all.

The above changes are a -huge- undertaking in terms of infrastructure on the part of Ironclad and the way they do things, and probably require a great deal of legal consultation. I don't expect anything like Darien Crusades to happen, well, ever again with the state of PC games these days.

I guess it should be expected- any factionalized strategy game is probably going to be full of balance discussions about well, factional balance and the prominance of certan units, people splitting up into camps and what not. It's part of the multiplayer territory.
19,475 views 9 replies
Reply #1 Top
I think the playerbase is instrumental in vetting possible changes. Though everyone has their own opinion as to what the 'right' balance is, the developers cannot simply test every possible permutation of their change in competitive online play. This makes player testing of changes and finding exploits valuable.

I would support some sort of developer run balance change tweaking program. Democratize the input so the changes that are the loudest aren't simply the ones being made.

Reply #2 Top
Such as:
-strengthening/cheapening defenses for less rushing
-increasing the benefits for unit diversity
-making targeting enemy units more efficient than targeting enemy infrastructure
-allowing economic expansion empire building to pay off more
-reducing the benefits of micro and APM



This is a very long rambling post...and you seem to be blaming experienced players for noticing 1.03 imbalances as if it were their fault. Or maybe you are being subtly sarcastic? ...I'm not sure. But let me address a few of your suggestions:

- Defense might need a small buff, I tend to agree with this...but on the flip side, I have seen people fill their gravwells with defenses and say "Come get me you bastard". And there is no doubt that I will eventually get them, because I can expand unhindered by their near non-existant fleet. It still takes me a while to build the critical mass to take a 35 Tac slot defended homeworld with a small fleet in it. The problem with Defense is that if you only build defense, you have lost the game before it began, but it still takes 45 minutes to kill you.

- There is great benefit in unit diversity. Of course, if I don't NEED a diverse fleet to kill somebody off, I won't build it. I will build a fleet of LRM because I don't see anything in the enemy's fleet that can stop LRM. This isn't a game mechanic issue, this is a player skill issue -- the unit counters are there.

- Targeting units vs infrastructure kind of goes back and forth depending on relative fleet size. When fleets are smallish, I actually believe targetting units is wiser, because it takes too long to knock out a 4500 structure building with 6 armor. When fleets get really big, those buildings start becoming the prime targets. Of course, if the fleets are this big, you probably have the money to replace your losses fast. If you don't, you might be losing regardless of what is targeted. Relative to its cost, infrastructure can take a decent amount of punishment.

- Economic buildings are So powerful, I don't know where you got the idea they weren't. Obviously if build them to the exclusion of your military, you can't protect yourself and won't last long enough to notice this. Once you get a trade network off the ground, you make so much money it isn't funny. Your trade income can surpass your planet income. In my opinion, refineries are still a good deal in 1.03, if you place them at the nexus point of several worlds with extractors. Of course, many people don't even bother with refineries now that they can buy everything they need with credits, but I suspect this will balance out in 1.04 (fingers crossed).

- The whole micro vs macro thing keeps coming up...if you don't like micro, I recommend TEC or maybe Vasari as a good race. Advent are more micro intensive. I have seen games where better strategy has beaten perfect micro. Still, this is an RTS, and there is a place for micro. I think the balance is pretty good.
Reply #4 Top
You can basically count me as being onboard with everything, though I won't get into theoretically discussing various changes to unit stats that are much easier for Ironclad to test ingame. The only thing that caught my eye is that I didn't notice the much discussed matter of RA being mentioned. And to restate something I just said in another thread, RA is only tolerable on the larger maps in 1.03 due to the combined unbalance of TEC trade and the black market. And you can't ignore one or the other without leaving the other overpowered.

I think the easiest and most simple way to balance RA would be to make the quantity/quality of ships provided by RA inversably correlate with the size of the Vasari player's existing fleet, i.e. the quantity/quality of ships provided by RA decreases as the player's fleet size increases. This would ensure that RA exists only as a powerful supplement to a functioning economy, and not a complete replacement. Furthermore, it wouldn't hamper the usefulness of RA on the smaller maps on which the fleets by nature are smaller than on the larger maps. But, there are many other valid ways to change RA, and as long as it's done adequately, I don't care how.
Reply #5 Top
People are just being over dramatic. The only major exploit is the market system; I have no other problems with balance.
Reply #6 Top
In regards to all you said...there are many things in this game that need work, this is very true. Most of what you touched on were multiplayer issues that need to be tweaked/changed, which the majority of the forum seems to argee with. You only really touched on the AI issues briefly, but in my opinion in order to satisfy the "casual gamers" the AI needs to be closer to the top of the list of fixable issues since casual gamers I must assume would include the large percentile of people who play the game exclusively in single player mode.

When a "casual gamer" (I guess I would have to include myself in that category) needs to play 4, 5, and 6 hard AIs in order to have a chance of losing, I think the AI needs a significant change. There are simply too many things regarding the single player gameplay, things which this game promised to deliver out of the box, that simply are not there. The AI can't manage large fleet engagements and there's really no point in playing on "large fleet settings" when the AI won't use but a small fraction of its fleet supply even in games that last beyond 7 hours.

My ultimate hope is that eventually I'll be able to play the game against two hard AI's and have a long, interesting, single player game. Why? The games story revolves around the fact that there are three races trying to gain control of the "universe," as it is, and fighting for domination. So, since there is no campaign, I would like to see a single player mode that can deliver, at least in part, what the single player game was intended to deliver from the start, but still hasn't.

It's an issue comparable to madden, oddly enough. In madden football, usually a person will have a really fun time with the AI early on, because the patterns and tactics used by the AI are unknown. However, after playing a full season or two, the game play becomes too easy because you know exactly how to counter the tactics of the AI, and you win every single game, often by a ridiculous amount of points. SoaSE has the same problem, as the AI uses very predictable tactics to achieve their goals. While a player unfamiliar with the game who has a decent grasp on the gameplay will find this challenging because they don't know what to expect, after several 6+ hour games the tactics of the AI become all to recognizable. It becomes obvious that there are simple things you can do to completely baffle a hard or unfair AI into becoming no more difficult than an easy AI. I won't go into too many details, but suffice to say that full tactical slots and a medium sized fleet is enough to ensure the AI will never tread upon that planets gravity well, almost indefinitely, with only a few exceptions.

With any luck, the devs have been listening, and these issues will be fixed in time. I really hope they can do it, but I'm not going to get my hopes too high that issues like this that came right out of the box can be fixed entirely via patches. I'll keep my fingers crossed, though.
Reply #7 Top
A number of people were talking about why anyone should look at balance because that was how elite players manipulated the game into their favor at the expense of the casual gamer. Onto Balance....Well, for one thing, bad balance makes everyone unhappy. (1)

Now look at how 1.02 went. In that patch, the balance changes were actually good. There was some minor grumbling about how LRMS> everything else, but nothing major. Nothing on the current scale. Siege frigates were weakened, everyone liked that. I'm not sure anyone really disliked the 1.02 siege frigate.  The Blackmarket issue was irksome, but nothing out of the ordinary for an RTS. (2)

The balance changes in question don't even remotely begin to affect how elites and non-elites interact. (3)

In fact, maintaining status quo will bring about -more- bad blood, because it is precisely the 'pro' players who exploit these imbalances to the maximum effect. (4)

Increasing balance only serves to level the playing field. (5)

If the patches were doing something relevant- like adding new 'special abilities' or increasing playspeed or vastly improving the tactical manuverability of all units- then -that- would move the game in the direction of requiring more skill to play. (6)

Making it so Unit X is cheaper than Unit Y and does more damage doesn't really do anything but affect balance across the different factions (And affect how many Xs are built over Ys). (7)

It creates a distinct 'moral' choice- to use these overpowered units, or not?
Many players, on a matter of principle, will not, as they view it an oversight by the Testing process and not meant to be in the game. (8)

This is usually the case.It's no secret that patch 1.03 was nothing short of a public relations disaster, at least in terms of the forums. (9)

Bad balance kills a game in more ways than one, and this is an example how. Just look at the stupid fighting that's occured over the last few days- (10)

Exactly what else do you plan to do other than rebalance; summarily throw out everyone who brings it up, focus entirely on single player, and ignore multiplayer ever, ever again? (11)

It would just mean eventually Single Players would stumble upon the exploit in their own time. (12)

We're upset that maybe without them, we could have played a little longer without being hampered by these exploits. (13)

Stardock is a great company with good support, Galciv 2 being a fantastic game. (14)

You expected, that maybe you could step into this game without it being ruined by 'competetiveness' and here they still are, those irritating 'elites' killing the game by zooming in on the balance weaknesses and making it entirely impossible to play the game online without using them yourself. (15)


To those opposed to balance, what exactly are you trying to push otherwise? (16)

Play balance is acheived by adjusting unit values and then playing the game to test it out. Adjusting unit values takes approximately 20-30 minutes to design the stuff and recompile the code. (17)

We all know we could get it done ourselves in 20 minutes flat with notepad, it's just that none of us has the collective clout to actually -make- everyone else play the same game we are like the devs. (18)

...(Your idea about changing the patch development scheme)... (19)

Such as:-strengthening/cheapening defenses for less rushing-increasing the benefits for unit diversity-making targeting enemy units more efficient than targeting enemy infrastructure-allowing economic expansion empire building to pay off more-reducing the benefits of micro and APM..do we create a game friendly for everyone to play. (20)

Yah. Some hardcore players might call this 'noob modding' , but I doubt many people here will disagree (as long as it doesn't dramatically increase required playtime!). (21)

As I said, if the AI used LRM to the proportion it does Siege Frigates and kill orbital structures and caps instead, I think we'd have alot more complaints. (22)


(1) A great deal of the controversy and arguments on the forum come down to competitive players trying to convince others of this.

(2) I think most people will agree with you here. (Besides the 200 crystal buy thing ;)).

(3) Bingo once again.

(4) The reason the competitive players exploit imbalances in this way is that the way the game is NOW is the new Sins of a Solar Empire. 1.02 is a different game from 1.03. The competitive player's motivation is to be skilled at the game. The way the game is now requires new tricks to be optimal. Competitive players will always find these tricks. (Though they also likely know, based on how overpowered something is, that realistically it will probably be changed [and therefore, they might choose NOT to use it and spend time improving their game in other areas].)

(5) Perhaps with some things, I would have to agree with this. Things like advanced micro methods and other things that CANNOT be naively arrived at but have to be learned - balancing things like that WILL level the playing field. However, things that are as obvious as the black market/TEC strategy - in other words, things that can be easily arrived at naively - will not level the playing field by much when balanced.

(6) I agree with you completely on this point, but I would suggest an even closer look at what you're saying. 'Skill' is really a terrible word to use here because of its utter abuse in just about every other subject. What you're talking about here specifically is micromanagement. If ships moved faster, turned faster, and could be maneuvered in complicated ways, the game would require intense micromanagement of fleet movements in order to play competitively.

Most 'casual' (is there a better word for a non-competitive player that isn't so overused?) players see micromanagement as an evil, as something they don't want to deal with. It's a bit easier to grok macromanagement (more numbers? -> more buildings -> more dudes), but micromanagement is often illogical and sometimes absolutely esoteric. In almost ALL RTS games, micromanagement deals heavily with click speed and accuracy. The perfect example is Starcraft. I've never played another game requiring such speed to maneuver units/activate abilities/etc.

In Starcraft, what I found eternally interesting was that a player could focus on EITHER macro or micro heavily and still do good. Over my years of playing, I shifted back and forth drastically several times. Focusing on micro heavily meant better kill ratio, better unit targetting, 100x better survivability. Focusing on macro meant more units, a faster 'peak' economy and had various other benefits. The ultimate problem I noticed with newer players was that, compared to me, they were utterly incapable of micro-ing even at what I considered a basic level. That's because microing in that game is HARD. Units move REALLY fast and need to be commanded even faster. Messing around with CTRL groups at light speed was required to use some unit abilities.

However, several newer games are coming into this and really breaking up the old way of doing things. Their micromanagement is more logical, less like voodoo magic, and its purpose and execution is more obvious. Dawn of War/Company of Heroes are perfect examples of this. The units move very slowly (by comparison to Starcraft, at least). Their upgrades are tied thematically to both their look and their generic naively-understood function. It's a lot easier on the brain and a LOT easier on the mouse. Making micromanagement more logical allows newer players to more easily arrive at using it and understanding it. This allows them to enjoy the same balance between micro and macro (although in this case, it's not such a good example since macro is almost non-existant in these games compared to Starcraft - but we're moving in that direction at least).

Now SoaSE almost completely revolves around macro play (economy, planets, expansion, tech). There is very little to micro besides making fleets not get drawn deep into a planet's well. The macro in this game, like many others, is easy to understood. It functions logically so it is arrived at naively, without training or intense study. The only REAL micro in the game is using abilities, mainly of capital ships. This is very easy since you are more likely to already be paying to attention to your capital ships (so half the mission is already accomplished, micromanagement isn't distracting). Autocast is also present, and while it's not very intelligent, it's INCREDIBLY good somehow (as a programmer, my jaw often hits the ground at how well abilities are autocast [besides a few silly exceptions ;)]).

What was the purpose of me writing all that crap? Well, a LOT of players have argued that balancing multiplayer would have no effect on the way they play the game. I wrote all of this to demonstrate why that CANNOT be true. There isn't any esoteric micromanagement voodoo in this game. Everything can be arrived at naively. So even without spending hours training, YOU TOO can break the game (not directed at the OP). All the balance issues right now affect everyone.

(7) This is an easy-to-understand logical relationship that can be arrived at naively and described using simple words. There's no voodoo, and it can effect everybody. This is a perfect example.

(8) Competitive players (in principle) are never concerned with whether something is considered 'cheap' or not. There is no in-game distinction between something that is 'cheap' and something that isn't. If they got less 'points' or fewer wins for doing something 'cheap' then maybe, but there is no such thing. Competitive players play the game as it is and come to terms with only the rules of the game describing what they can do. Not disagreeing with you or anything, just expanding on your point.

(9) I'm pretty sure that this patch was not meant to be a balance patch. In fact, I feel as if I read somewhere that this patch had several changes in order to gather data for the next patch (which is a 'real' patch - 1.04 with lots of goodies and heavy balancing and whatnot). I think perhaps some people feel that the devs don't WANT to balance the game or think that the game IS balanced - but this is just simply not true. But yes, it has caused quite the scuffle on the forums :).

(10) A lot of the fighting, as I've said earlier, is just trying to CONVINCE some people that the game is broken. Even then, some people act as if such broken mechanics don't even affect them. Even THEN, some people act as if balancing the game will somehow ruin single player or whatever else it is. I guess I shouldn't expect EVERY person to be reasonable and civil, but sometimes it feels like I'm trying to tell the tobacco companies that smoking causes cancer... :)

(11) See 9 for this point.

(12) QFT

(13) You have a point here, but ignorance isn't bliss. It's better for issues to be known and fixed.

(14) Understatement of the Year Award goes to you :).

(15) I think you have the right idea, but I think a better way to say it would be that they reduced esoteric voodoo magic in this game so that even the most 'casual' of players can see what's going on. The competitive players are only making the game better by continually breaking it.

(16) This is the million dollar question. I have yet to see it answered. You hit the nail right on the head here.

(17) Perhaps the physical work takes 20-30 minutes, but the decision of what to do takes a long time and is an extremely complex issue (even with such simple game mechanics) requiring the input of not only programmers and designers but also expert players.

(18) For this specific case, you may be right, but in principle even with the mod tools, the players don't have the power to balance all game issues. Making a patch-mod can be a useful thing, but we have to depend on the process of player feedback in order to really get things fixed (like you said).

(19) I really think this is unnecessary. They've done a good job so far even only two months into the release of the game. Give them some time, and they will sort everything out.

(20) While it's difficult to have balanced defenses against rushes, I think pretty much everyone can agree on your other points (especially about fleet diversity). However, I would say that APM has pretty much no place at all in this game. On a good day playing Starcraft, my APM is somewhere around 200-250 depending on what race I'm playing. However, even in big games of Sins, my actions only number 2-4000 after HOURS of play.

(21) I don't think ANY competitive players in this game would disagree with you.

(22) QFT
Reply #8 Top
This is a really bad place to be. These exploits are known, creating a gap between those who are willing to use them (The 'Elite') and those who are not ('The Casual').


I call the difference between the 'dicks' and the 'fair players' but YMMV.

Agree with all in the OP.
Reply #9 Top
It's certainly possible to make the AI more difficult, particularly by means of cheating. Different degrees of unfair AI would provide different degrees of challenge. Again, look at GalCiv2- not even in that game is a 1v1 experience against the AI going to get you anywhere, for anything fun to happen you'd want at least 3-5.

That said, making AI become more /Random/ is considerably more difficult, and requires a rewiring entirely of how the game is played. Games since well, forever, have used very similiar algorithms for AI, and the behavior of AI opponents can only vary so much.

I'll tell you right away every AI you play in anygame is eventually going to get predictable. If Ironclad managed to solve that problem there's no reason they'd be..working anymore. The AI as it is, is relatively intelligent in that it doesn't go rushing headlong into defenses like many AIs, but it's still vulnerable to highly aggressive tactics.

That said, while the AI can be more challenging, it's not really feasible to expect it to well, be more interesting. The AI does what it does. It's not going to be some kind of brilliant tactical genius; it's going to be some brute that will send waves of X there and waves of Y there when event Z happens.

How about we get the air clear and figure out exactly what you think the box /did/ promise?

The features page promised customizable starships, fantastic scale, and diplomatic and economic strategies.

Nothing there about some kind of improved dynamic crazy AI. We can see they're tinkiering with the diplomacy and economy, look at the black market changes.

What do you want? I've yet to see a single well thought out post laying out point by point how and where the AI is to be improved and why. There's alot of frustration being vented, but without a clear agenda, there's really nothing to push but vague allegations of single player not living up to what it ought to be and AI not providing a challenge. Be smart. Consolidate your issues and push them in debate. If you can't, prepare to be ignored.