Some nitpicky questions based on a recent build

a.k.a. "Huh?"

from Sins Forums
So I have a mess of questions based on a recent build -- which includes the manual, so don't give me any of that RTFM guff! -- and I figured maybe some of you beta testers or even someone from Ironclad could help a fella out.

1) I'm a bit confused about how Trade Ports and Refineries work. Do they simply spawn cargo and refinery ships, which flit about earning me money and resources? Or does it matter where and how many I build? For instance, if I've got a juicy ice planet with four crystal mines, will building a refinery here help my crystal income more than if I'd build it at, say, an asteroid providing metal? Similarly, the manual implies I need at least two Trading Ports to make money. Should I be building these at a maximum distance from each other, in pairs? Does distance from capital matter? Because based on the manual and the otherwise excellent tooltips, I can't tell how I'm supposed to be using these buildings.

2) Having only played two of the races, I see a lot of undocumented stuff in the tech trees. What are long range jumps? Because upon researching this tech, I didn't see any difference in how my ships travelled. And worm hole stabilization sounds good and well, but I didn't see any worm hole traveling as near as I could tell. Also, one of the advanced techs reduces the mass of my ships. Okay, great. I'm all for mass reduction! But, uh, what does it do in the game?

3) So one planet has a crown-looking icon. That's my capital. So far, so good. Another planet has a sort of caret underneath it. Except in the empire tree, the caret is at the 45 degree position. What's that supposed to mean?

4) I see a lot of possibility in setting my fleets on Hold Position and then carefully using individual elements, such as carriers and missile ships. Is there any way to set facing for formations, because it would help for those of us who want to try some tactical min/maxxing?

5) I love hotkeys! Love 'em! I can't get enough of 'em! So, is there a hotkey to collapse or expand all the pins on the empire tree? I want one.

6) Planets with a porous core have a gravity well radius of -33%. Not that I can tell. Is this working, or am I misunderstanding what the red 33% means?

Okay, that's it for now. I'm sure I'll have more questions, because I'm playing the daylights out of this thing. Awesome work, Ironclad!

-Tom
58,203 views 39 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
#1: Yes they 'flit about' making money and resources and they come with the station while refinery ships only operate at 1 planet and trade ships can travel between planets(longer the route the more money you make) Typically I just set a trade post on every planet/ asteroid.

#2 Long range jumps allow you to jump between stars(useless in 1 star games)the rest you have to be clearer on I've never even heard of them.

#3 No idea probably doesn't matter.

#4 No

#5 ....What?

#6 Probably not implemented yet.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
1) I'm a bit confused about how Trade Ports and Refineries work. Do they simply spawn cargo and refinery ships, which flit about earning me money and resources? Or does it matter where and how many I build? For instance, if I've got a juicy ice planet with four crystal mines, will building a refinery here help my crystal income more than if I'd build it at, say, an asteroid providing metal? Similarly, the manual implies I need at least two Trading Ports to make money. Should I be building these at a maximum distance from each other, in pairs? Does distance from capital matter? Because based on the manual and the otherwise excellent tooltips, I can't tell how I'm supposed to be using these buildings.


Trade centers / refineries generate trade ships / refinery ships. Trade ships go from trade center to trade center -- the larger the distance between trade centers, the more credits you make from the trade. Refinery ships just pick up unrefined ore from mines, then drop it off at the nearest refinery to get more resources out of it.

2) Having only played two of the races, I see a lot of undocumented stuff in the tech trees. What are long range jumps? Because upon researching this tech, I didn't see any difference in how my ships travelled. And worm hole stabilization sounds good and well, but I didn't see any worm hole traveling as near as I could tell. Also, one of the advanced techs reduces the mass of my ships. Okay, great. I'm all for mass reduction! But, uh, what does it do in the game?


Long range jumps would be interstellar travels... Mass reduction (vasari tech, right?) would probably have something to do with acceleration and (maybe) top speed.


3) So one planet has a crown-looking icon. That's my capital. So far, so good. Another planet has a sort of caret underneath it. Except in the empire tree, the caret is at the 45 degree position. What's that supposed to mean?


Um, what are you talking about? There is nothing like that second thing in the publically available beta... did you somehow acquire a copy of the internal game?

4) I see a lot of possibility in setting my fleets on Hold Position and then carefully using individual elements, such as carriers and missile ships. Is there any way to set facing for formations, because it would help for those of us who want to try some tactical min/maxxing?


Formations, again, sounds like you have access to the internal copies of the game... which we don't have.



6) Planets with a porous core have a gravity well radius of -33%. Not that I can tell. Is this working, or am I misunderstanding what the red 33% means?


This sounds like a common enough complaint in the beta... basically, because of the ability to zoom in / out, your perceptions are distorted. Try using the z x and c keys to get the same zoom on different astronomical bodies, and you'll notice the differences soon enough.
CursorFX - Customize your Windows cursor
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

A lot of the questions pertain to things that aren't in the public beta version. :P

1) Trade Ports and Refineries are pretty much automated. With Trade Ports you need to have at least two in seperate gravity wells under your control (or have a trade treaty with another player). Trade ships will then go between your various trade ports and generate income - longer distances yields more money, especially if there's an unbroken chain of them between planets under your control (you'll see this denoted by a solid white line when you're zoomed out and have a trade port selected). Refineries aren't as picky and you don't need lots of them (diminishing returns). They will boost your resource income rates for the asteroids in the gravity well where they refinery is built, but will also send out refinery ships to nearby planets as well.

2) Unfortunately, while we tried to get as much into the manual as possible, many changes took place after it went to print. Long-Range Jumps are only useful in multi-star galaxies, as Bubb9 said. Wormholes do function after you've researched the proper techs. Just order your ships into the center of it and they'll pop-out the other side. Trade/Refinery ships automatically make use of them also.

3) I think that may indicate you have a trade port there, but I'll have to check one of my games to confirm. Or it may indicate an artifact on that planet (which I've had poor luck in finding in my games).

4) Not currently, but it's a feature we plan to add.

5) I don't believe there is, but it's something we could add. ;)

6) Yup, should be. The gravity well should be 33% smaller than a normal planet's gravity well of the same type (i.e., If it's a Terran planet, the gravity well should be 33% smaller than a normal Terran planet - keeping in mind that gravity wells are spherical).

Hope this helps.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
Oh and just so people don't get concerned by Tom's questions, he's a journalist who has a much later build of the game than everyone else. :P
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
I knew that name sounded familiar.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Ohhh... *puts torch and pitchfork away*

Thx for more info :)
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Chick
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
im a journalist too (i write about eet's sexual adventures), so where is my gamma build? ;<

Btw sins is on http://gfw.1up.com/ (the site Tom writes for) in the top5 of the most popular games. :D
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Sounds like hes writing something good about Sins(finally a truthful journalist!)
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Nice to have you drop in Tom!
The little symbol you are seeing below the planet tells you that the planet has an alien artifact on it! The reason it is on a 45 degree angle in the empire tree - to be shamefully honest - is because it is the only place where it would fit :)

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

Doh! Someone who actually reads the manual... Sorry, like Yarlen said we had to refine some stuff after it went to print and there is also so much stuff to cover that we'd need triple the pages. Hopefully, for the most part the manual + tutorails + tooltips/infocards will cover most players. We'll definately try and improve the infocards in the next build based on feedback like this.

So I have a mess of questions based on a recent build -- which includes the manual, so don't give me any of that RTFM guff! -- and I figured maybe some of you beta testers or even someone from Ironclad could help a fella out.

1) I'm a bit confused about how Trade Ports and Refineries work. Do they simply spawn cargo and refinery ships, which flit about earning me money and resources? Or does it matter where and how many I build? For instance, if I've got a juicy ice planet with four crystal mines, will building a refinery here help my crystal income more than if I'd build it at, say, an asteroid providing metal? Similarly, the manual implies I need at least two Trading Ports to make money. Should I be building these at a maximum distance from each other, in pairs? Does distance from capital matter? Because based on the manual and the otherwise excellent tooltips, I can't tell how I'm supposed to be using these buildings.

The trade/refinery ships autospawn though the number depends on the race, research, and Advent don't get refinery ships (they have a different mechanic). W/r to tradeports, the distance and connectivity matters. You can hover over the credits tab at the top to see a white line showing your longest direct path (which is different than "longest path ala Settlers of Catan") and how much each planet is bringing in via trade. Nodes that can't be colonized don't count against your path. Its very beneficial to trade with other players because it makes it much easier to get a long and unconnected trade route. You can trade with enemies, your tradeships won't give you vision of their territory and vice versa. Refineries work differently. They have a limited range and will give you bonus metal/crystal based on whatever is within reach of the refinery (I believe its 1 jump in your build). The Advent's refineries/tradeports are actually the same building but can switch modes and their refinery only works in the existing gravity well. Finally, and most importantly, destroying enemy tradeships gives you good $$ and destroying their resource ships gives you good resources. Naturally, it harms the enemy income rates as well. I've survived in huge multiplayer games just by pirating tradeshisp to fund the rebuilding of my glorious empire :P


2) Having only played two of the races, I see a lot of undocumented stuff in the tech trees. What are long range jumps? Because upon researching this tech, I didn't see any difference in how my ships travelled. And worm hole stabilization sounds good and well, but I didn't see any worm hole traveling as near as I could tell. Also, one of the advanced techs reduces the mass of my ships. Okay, great. I'm all for mass reduction! But, uh, what does it do in the game?

Long jumps is the ability to jump to stars. Only applicable when there are other stars. Wormhole technology is for when the map has wormholes. Ignore them both if neither exists in your map. Mass Reduction reduces the mass of your ships allowing them to accelerate and turn faster.


3) So one planet has a crown-looking icon. That's my capital. So far, so good. Another planet has a sort of caret underneath it. Except in the empire tree, the caret is at the 45 degree position. What's that supposed to mean?

This indicates the presence of an artifact. If you read the infocard (tooltip) it should say that either you have one there, or you detect that an enemy has uncovered something powerful (i.e. the planet is glowing with awesomeness, you should go take it away from whoever is hording all the goodness for themselves)


4) I see a lot of possibility in setting my fleets on Hold Position and then carefully using individual elements, such as carriers and missile ships. Is there any way to set facing for formations, because it would help for those of us who want to try some tactical min/maxxing?

It's been requested and is planned for a future content update. It is fairly easy to tell them to move slightly in the direct you want and the leader will just rotate in place causing the rest of the formation to wheel. You can tab (and shift tab) through the selection to get the guy you are interested in using as the focal point. Tab and shift tab behavior is remarkably improved in the nit pick polish build we are working on now.


5) I love hotkeys! Love 'em! I can't get enough of 'em! So, is there a hotkey to collapse or expand all the pins on the empire tree? I want one.

Damn I thought we hotkeyed everything anyone would need (take a look at the massive list in the hotkey options page) but we didn't get that one. We will add it in the next content update. Just incase you didn't know though -> tilde pins/unpins, and ctrl-tilde unpins everything. For sake of ease, most of the hotkeys line up spatially on the keyboard with where they would be positioned on the action grid (e.g. (0,0) is q, (0,1) is W etc) so you just have to memorize the position instead of pneumonics and its triply easy because things of similiar function always hold the same position (even across factions).


6) Planets with a porous core have a gravity well radius of -33%. Not that I can tell. Is this working, or am I misunderstanding what the red 33% means?

It's probably difficult to tell without a frame of reference. I checked and it is working correctly, your ships will reach the edge sooner and arrive closer (well depending on where you jumped from ofcourse). Actually I should bring this advanced topic up which unfortunately also isn't documented. The position you jump from determines where in the next gravity well you arrive (if you've already explored the destination). Leave from the left, arrive on the left, leave from the near edge, arrive on the near edge etc. It's a design decison to solve an early beta problem where people would leave monster defense forces right at the center of the phase lane where they knew enemies would arrive.


Okay, that's it for now. I'm sure I'll have more questions, because I'm playing the daylights out of this thing. Awesome work, Ironclad!
-Tom

We will answer anything you got. Since the game's been in beta for so long I'm sure whatever you have has come up already and there is either a way to do it or a good reason why it hasn't been done :)


 

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
Thanks for the answers, guys. I didn't realize star systems had their own jump distance, and I haven't seen a wormhole yet. I eventually figured out the artifact icon. I've also been just shift-queuing a couple of waypoints to set up facing, which is an old trick for us RTS diehards from before the days when Creative Assembly spoiled everyone with their formations. :)

Now that you mention it, Blair, I'm pretty sure the trade route stuff was explained somewhere (tutorial or manual) and I just forgot. Now that I see how it works, I love the idea of building out a line railway route. So I presume there's no real benefit to stacking trade ports in a single system? And based on what Yarlen mentioned, I presume that's the case with refineries as well? Culture structures *definitely* stack, so I had figured that was part of the gameplay for trade and refineries as well.

As for the hotkeys, believe me, I've gone up and down the list with a fine-toothed comb! I love that there are so many (although it might have helped more casual hotkeyers if they were organized under headings like 'unit selection', 'buildings', and so on), and I'm making liberal use of them. If there wasn't a CTL+F to call up and tab through my ship production facilities, I'd be the first to whine about it. The search list is pretty handy, too.

The gravity well is such a minor thing, but I definitely have a game here where two ice planets -- one with a porous core, one without -- have the same sized gravity wells. I can tab between them at a consistent zoom level and not see any difference. I can send a save if you like, but it's not that big a deal. I only noticed because I've been trying to finesse the exit/entrance point stuff when placing defenses, and I realized the porous core -- What does that even mean? :) -- should have had a smaller area and been easier to defend.

-Tom
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

1. Organizing the hotkey list is on the list, as soon as we get someone to volunteer for some serious monkey work :P

2. No matter what you do, building a tradeport will get you more money but trading between two tradeports on the same planet won't get you any bonuses (distance of 0 and connectivity of 0).

3. I'll look try the porous core with an ice planet and fix it up for the polish build. Thanks for the find.

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
monkey work


dont you already have some nephews from the targeting scandal?
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
If Wrye of elder scrolls modding fame can be reached, he might be able to help, being a monkey.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

1. Organizing the hotkey list is on the list, as soon as we get someone to volunteer for some serious monkey work

I actually have an organized list from when we did up the hotkey card for the CE box.  I'll go through the list to make sure nothing was changed since then.

Unless you're talking about coding monkey work... that's a bit beyond me  ;)

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
umm it says release date is 02/15/2008 on the website.
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
umm it says release date is 02/15/2008 on the website.


What? Oh, wait... release != ship :D
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

umm it says release date is 02/15/2008 on the website.


huh?
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
BTW, I wanted to edit this in (./glares at Koscy) but what website are you looking at?
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
:LOL:
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
Okay, a couple more questions:

1) On the empire tree and info card for each of my planets, there's a green bar. I presume that's either health or population. Above that is a light blue bar. What is that for?

2) Is there any way to check my game's settings? For instance, if I want to see what the speed settings are, whether teams are locked, the resource setting, and so on?

3) Has anyone found the Vasari salvage techs to be useful? They seem to be borderline useless slots in the tech tree.

-Tom
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
Vasari Salvage Tech should be for all capital ships and for all construction ships... But its not... :NOTSURE:
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
Above that is a light blue bar. What is that for?


Antimatter reserves (mana).