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Resource Upgrade Techs - Do the math...

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Resource Upgrade Techs - Do the math...

from Stardock Forums

Facts
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(This data is from beta 4, Vasari, at normal speed)

The Vasari resource upgrade techs do in fact provide a 5% increase per asteroid, per ~second.

The TEC resource upgrades provide an almost 7% increase per asteroid, per ~second.

The game "tics" ~twice per second.

Asteroid colonies do indeed recieve the resource tech bonuses.

A -10% allegiance modifier will yield 10% less resources.

To put this data in perspective, a modest sized Vasari empire (5 colonies, each with 1 crystal asteroid) will produce 900 more crystal per hour with the first resource upgrade tech.


Analysis
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If I had to take an educated guess at what point it is viable to start researching resource tech's, first I would have to decide how long I am willing to wait for the tech to pay for itself, and how much crystal and metal are worth in credits.

So for shits and giggles lets say:

A) I'm willing to wait 15 minutes at most for the tech to pay for itself.
B) 50 crystal = 100 credits
C) 50 metal = 100 credits

The first Vasari tech costs 600 credits 50 metal and 100 crystal, or by my above conversion, 900 credits. If I want my upgrade to pay that off in 15 minutes or less I will need X resource extractors...

**Warning: if you don't care for math, skip to the last paragraph**

Assuming 100% allegiance on all extractors, the first upgrade nets 0.05 resources per second, per extractor. By my above conversion that translates to 0.1 credits per second per extractor.

900 credits / 0.1 credits per second = 9000 seconds or 2.5 hours for ONE extractor's bonus to pay for the total cost of the first upgrade.

I decided that an acceptable return on investment would be 15 minutes so...

15 minutes = 900 seconds / 9000 seconds for one extractor to pay it off = 0.1 (One extractor is a tenth of the extractors needed to meet the 15 minute quota)

So by these rough calculations, You should have AT LEAST 10 extractors before you research the first tech, and even then it will be 15 minutes before you get back what you spent, and start to profit from it. Remember 5% of 10 extractors is only 30 extra units of material per minute, or 1800 more per hour, so the increase in material is not drastic, even with 10 extractors. The tech is still very worth the investment in a 2 hour+ long multiplayer game.

Note: These calculations still roughly apply to TEC. Just remember you will need 10 extractors of the appropriate resource, and you get ~2% more of a bonus.
187,201 views 102 replies
Reply #51 from Sins Forums Top
The return rate on these upgrades dont change from game to game

yes it does, entirely dependant on your empire


It's 5%, no matter the game. You try to misinterpret things so that you have some ground to stand on.

mica, please calm down and try your best not to take shod seriously (i know itll be hard)


What makes you think I'm not calm?
Im actually happy he thinks waiting for 10 extractors is absurd.

you should just put the data up there and leave each individual player to make their own educated decisions.


lol! Thats what its there for...
I already know this information. Im sharing it.

I start my final analysis with:

If I had to take an educated guess at what point it is viable to start researching resource tech's...


You can take it or leave it, but the simple fact remains... How successful your research techs will be, and how fast you begin to profit from them is directly related to the number of extractors you have. Thats obvious, and thats not what this thread is about. The thread is about what time is the right time, and I say at about 10 extractors. You say asap. There is nothing more to say.

Reply #52 from Sins Forums Top
It's 5%, no matter the game. You try to misinterpret things so that you have some ground to stand on.

the benefit is the same, the return rate is dependant on your empire.
You can take it or leave it, but the simple fact remains...

well then, I guess we are in violent agreement. enough said.
Star Control: Origins
Reply #53 from Sins Forums Top
I find your research interesting, please keep it up!
Reply #54 from Sins Forums Top

It's 5%, no matter the game. You try to misinterpret things so that you have some ground to stand on.

the benefit is the same, the return rate is dependant on your empire.
You can take it or leave it, but the simple fact remains...

well then, I guess we are in violent agreement. enough said.


The rate is 5%, and Ive been trying to pound in your head its all about the "size of your empire" as you say, or "number of extractors" as I say. So dont try to weasel around with your play on words. You have been full of piss and wind this entire thread. Everything in my op is laid out in hard numbers. You have provided no numbers and zero facts. Lots of piss and wind to be sure though...

Reply #55 from Sins Forums Top
there isnt any wordplay here, you've been making false claim after false claim. you have not provided any facts either, let me note. we dont even have data from your supposed "tests", let alone understand their construction

your right, there is a bunch of wind on this thread, because you are full of a lot of hot air, and no experience or support.
Reply #56 from Sins Forums Top
By all means, provide some data that falsifies mine. If you want me to take you by the hand and show you how I counted the resources per tic, and looked at the rates in the game data files, you're shit out of luck.
Reply #57 from Sins Forums Top
I already told you that I trust your supposed data, as its all logical. what I dont trust is your flawed analysis, that one should under NO circumstances buy this research before they have 4 planets. the only issue I have with your data is that it entirely foregoes anomalies like ice planets and dead asteroids, which are common enough.

jeez, just couldnt accept the olive branch.
Reply #58 from Sins Forums Top
Actually, just to prove you wrong once more, I will show you how its done.

Open the game data file RESEARCHSUBJECT_STRUCTUREWORK_RESOURCEEXTRACT0

You will see the rate for metal and crystal is set to 0.05 (5%)

Change that 0.05 to 1 (100%)

What is 100% of 0.5? Thats right 0.5...

Start up a game and start up one crystal extractor.

You will see your crystal jump one point for every four times your credits jump.

What does that tell you? It tells you your extractor is producing .5 per second and that there is two tics per second.

Now, research the first resource bonus. As soon as it's done WOW, you are now getting one point of crystal for every two times your credits jump. There is your 100% bonus that you put in the game data file.

So know you know, my math is based on factual data.
Reply #59 from Sins Forums Top
under NO circumstances


I never said that. If you are in a corner of the galaxy where nobody will bother you go for it. But you will not be measurably ahead of anyone who researched it 15 minutes later, with the extractors to back it up, because they will start gaining profit at about the same time you do.
Reply #60 from Sins Forums Top
wow mica, your lack of ability to read.
I already told you that I trust your supposed data

is quite astounding. despite the fact its not technically test data.

well in any case, let me quote you to word
You should have AT LEAST 10 extractors before you research the first tech

your analysis declares absolutism. which, I told you, is a flawed analysis.
Reply #61 from Sins Forums Top
jeez, just couldnt accept the olive branch.


This is my thread, this is my work, and I am contributing to the community. Apologize, tell me you were wrong, and I'll think about it. Hah!
Reply #62 from Sins Forums Top
we dont even have data from your supposed "tests", let alone understand their construction

your right, there is a bunch of wind on this thread, because you are full of a lot of hot air, and no experience or support.


Whats all this about then?
Reply #63 from Sins Forums Top
You should have AT LEAST 10 extractors before you research the first tech

your analysis declares absolutism. which, I told you, is a flawed analysis.


You missed the opening line:

If I had to take an educated guess at what point it is viable to start researching resource tech's


Still, 10 extractors is quite few, and since the tech applies to extractors I'll hold firm to at least ten. The numbers back it up. You are pissing in the wind with any less.

Reply #64 from Sins Forums Top
I agree with Schod . Fsake lol  :( 

data is accurate . but its results are useless to the proper game scenario.

Its better to make a judgement on upgrading based on your tactical situation which imfraid cant be set in stone as its different for every game.
Reply #65 from Sins Forums Top
You can take it or leave it, however Schod really doesn't have a point to agree with. You simply MUST have the extractors to benefit from this tech. About 10 extractors is when the bonus will be at a noticeable level, and paid off in a reasonable amount of time.

I have updated my OP to sum up most of this thread as most of it is hot air from Schod.
Reply #66 from Sins Forums Top
Mica you lack the experience nescessary to make a qualified judgement, if you accepted that and made it part of your disclaimer instead of masquerading as a knowitall I wouldnt have the slightest issue with your analysis, save that I dont agree with it. but you place things down almost explicitely as facts, the fact that you use the disclaimer of "educated guess" means nothing, as you dont have the experience to make one.
Reply #67 from Sins Forums Top

Mica you lack the experience nescessary to make a qualified judgement, if you accepted that and made it part of your disclaimer instead of masquerading as a knowitall I wouldnt have the slightest issue with your analysis, save that I dont agree with it. but you place things down almost explicitely as facts, the fact that you use the disclaimer of "educated guess" means nothing, as you dont have the experience to make one.


First of all, learn to spell: necessary judgment and explicitly and then talk to me about education and experience.

I am not a know it all, I am an analyze it all. You can make posts till you are blue in the face. The numbers clearly show, you need a modest number of extractors to feel even a slight benefit in a reasonable amount of time. I'm sorry, those are the facts. Four colonies, 10 extractors, do the math.

From now on, I am going to reply to all your posts with the above, until you come up with some evidence that makes my analysis absurd. (You wont find any)

Reply #68 from Sins Forums Top
First of all, learn to spell: necessary judgment and explicitly...

we have enough of your kind, please back to your vocab ridden hell.
You can make posts till you are blue in the face. The numbers clearly show, you need a modest number of extractors to feel even a slight benefit in a reasonable amount of time. I'm sorry, those are the facts.

*sigh* you are incorrigible, you dont even understand the difference between whats solid numbers, and whats subjective analysis.

you, my foofaraw filled friend, need to understand that you have done 1/2 your work really well, and I applaud it. But, you have done the other half in ignorance, assuming that a 15 minute turn around is a fixed number that will never improve, and that anything before that is a waste. you can try it out against other players for yourself, but I doubt you'll find your optimisation strategies will fit perfectly.

I'm washing my hands of this, anyone who has half a brain will appreciate whats good, and will ignore what they dont need. I dont need to be here to coach them.
Reply #69 from Sins Forums Top
With the first upgrade:
10 extractors = 30 extra units of material per minute that you wont even see for 15 minutes.

Guess what happens if you try to upgrade with half that?

You guessed it... 15 extra units of material per minute that YOU WONT EVEN SEE FOR 30 minutes.

Upgrade when you want. I'm giving people actual numbers to make their own educated decision. If you don't like it, go back to your crybaby Anny thread.
Reply #70 from Sins Forums Top
/washes hands
I've already told you that I'm done gutting your empty argument.
Reply #72 from Sins Forums Top
let me put it to you this way: this research ALWAYS pays off more than it cost in any non-close encounters game. therefore its "worth" as a research exceeds 100%, it should be researched ASAP (so that you can start reaping the benefits) there is no game I am yet aware of where a player has lost within the first 30 minutes (again save close encounters) so its worth researching. thats a capital PER-iod, no question.


Your overlooking the fact that the resources sunk into it, while they will inevitably pay for themselves, may be of greater worth in the long term if placed elsewhere. For example, the 2 cobalts you could get instead of it might be enough to beat off an assault on one of your Terrans. Again, he's giving us tools. Its up to us to use them correctly.
Reply #73 from Sins Forums Top
WOW!!!

A whole page of this machista pissing contest in just a couple hours absence!
I knew Schod was capable of it, but I figured everyone else would catch on and just leave.

The whole content of this thread is pretty much null and void in 11 days and 23 hours, so forgive me for not reading all of it.
Reply #74 from Sins Forums Top
Schod is right tho.

. In Sins money in the bank doesnt do anything. you may aswell spend it early because it just means you get a return quicker. Remember that even if you only have 3-4 asteroids when you do an upgrade , you will still be expanding so eventually it will reach 10 asteroids.

Aslong as "spending it early" doesnt compromise your tactical situation or the speed at which you expand (killin militia) or upgrade other resources then that is fine.Why leave the money in the bank?. Even if the return is 60 minutes when you have done your research , as you expand to make more resources , this return time reduces.

Player 1 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 (upg)
Player 2 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 (upg) - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10

Who has better returns? the person who started early , who did it asap at the point where he isnt compromised , i.e he has spare money not needed for combat , or the person who does it at 10 asteroids , cos he followed stats and is totally oblivious to tactical circumstances.

I mean i know mich you have spent alot of time researching this. But i dont want to offend , but I rather not see people get mislead.





Reply #75 from Sins Forums Top
I spent about 30 minutes researching and writing out my original post. SO I didnt spend much time on it at all. If you dont get it, good. If you think you are saving anyone from being mislead, youre the daft one. People will make their own decisions, and care not what you think.

player 1: (upgrade) ===> (30 minutes) ===> Profit
player 2: (15 minutes) ===> (upgrade) ===> (15 minutes) ===> Profit

Even if you upgrade at 4, and continue to gain an extractor once every 5 minutes, it amounts to getting your profit 1 minute sooner then the person who waited for 10 extractors. That = a whopping 15 metal and 15 crystal. The person who upgraded later had 600/50/100 more cash early game. Do the math or gtfo.