The Vasari are NOT the fricking PROTOSS!

Well said Schod, and I happen to agree. But their ships still look absolutely wicked, tough or no.

Yet you haven't shown us proof it works.

Agreed, Shod show us a replay of you doing this to a human player

He speaks the truth, but not for all of their units. Most of their units are on par with the TEC units, in actuallity many units have greater hull points as well(except for caps). Also the dps of most units is better then that of the TEC ships. The thing is frigs cost more for the Visari, not only that but most of their ships rely more on shields then hulls. Their units also move faster if anyone hasn't noticed and many of their ships are equiped for fast strike assaults, like their version of the Marza, it has those seige stationy things, spawn a few near a planet lower the pop do some damage and the phase away.

I think Schem is right in his theory, but to say that some of the Vasari units aren't powerful is to be foolish. Put a Cobalt vs a Vasari Light Frig(whatever its name may be) and the Vasari Light Frig will win that battle.

Now we must also notice that the races aren't fully balanced yet, things will change.

rome was not built in a day amigos, how about we let me get some evidence worth presenting, not something you'll dunk in a second for one stupid divined reason or another.

I'll just pull blair's little trick

yes, you're right for a 1v1 battle, however a vasari light frig is almost as costly as a kodiak in almost all respects (all almost, not almost all actually... nevermind, stupid grammatical distinction) so the TEC can easily outperform the Vaz tit for tat.

why thanks!

Last time I looked Kodiaks were way more expensive then Vasari Light Frigs.

This is directly from the site for this game, which to me says that the Vasari are supposed to be technologically superior to the TEC:

10 YEARS AGO

The Trader Worlds prospered in an era of lucrative trade and relative peace. Stories of their ancestor's wars had long since passed into the depths of the oldest archives; the methods and machines by which they conducted those affairs long since buried. Consequently, when the Vasari Exodus Fleet arrived, the outlying Trader Worlds paid dearly

In a battle for survival, the Traders find a new impetus to rediscover the ways of their savage past.

NOW

The Exiled have returned; a transformed people calling themselves "The Advent". With a vast fleet of advanced warships and mysterious weapons, they bring a growing number of worlds under their control. The already struggling Trader Emergency Coalition finds itself caught in a two-front war that appears utterly hopeless.

The fate of the galaxy is at hand and one must rise to face the Sins of a Solar Empire.


ComSat Reports Inbound Hostiles: The Arrival of the Vasari
11.1.2007 3:08:58 PM
Ten millennia have passed since you and the few survivors of the once mighty Vasari Empire fled from an unknown threat that all but exterminated your kind. You now find yourself at the fringe of the galaxy in a sector occupied by a pathetically primitive species - one obsessed with trade and lacking any central organization or military technology. Calling themselves the Trader Emergency Coalition, they would have been ideal slaves in the glorious days of the past, but time is of the essence. Use your mastery of phase-space manipulation, gravity and nanotechnology to quickly eliminate any local resistance and acquire the necessary resources to fuel the next segment of your continuing exodus





Based on the history, I would think the Vasari would be small in number since it's an autonomous group that broke away from the Empire to flee an unknown enemy that was wiping the floor with their forces.

They have been on the run for awhile and thus unlikely to have built up significant numbers during that time.

So they should be superior in technology and strength against the TEC, but have very few numbers to beat back the TEC.

The TEC of course will have the advantage in numbers since the sectors being contested were originally theirs to begin with.

Yes, more of an inbetween... Kodiaks take years to build and hose way more fleet points, regardless of the resource costs. They also do about twice the damage too, not sure where this was supposed to be going. They are far superior to cobalts in sheer strength and only lose numerically, but they are most definitely not on par with kodiaks in any way.

suggests that the Vasari are supperior TACTICALLY, not in sheer power

ha, see what I did there? changed your point to support me

ok this one doesnt support me, doesnt hurt me either

keep in mind the Vasari have been fighting weaklings for a while, part of their premise was that the TEC was primitive, something they were proven wrong about

ADDITIONALLY: the Vasari have to deal with their populace on all of their ships, where the TEC have planets instead. obviously theres going to be some crossover of ability

A = B, C = D, no A =/= D thank you so much
rather, you say that the fact they've been on the run for a while suggests that their tech should be supperior? their ships are 10,000 years old, of course not. besides their ships are quite artsy in origin, as much of their tech has gone to phasespace mastery.


like I said, you guys are twisting lore to fit the age old RTS prototype of "strong, but expensive, weak but numerous" that blizzard capitalized on. sorry, it aint' here.

I'm sorry, but 420 to 600, 7 to 10 isnt a significant difference, especially seeing as a kobalt can take out numerous VLFs on its own, it usually takes 3 unupgraded VLFs to take down a single unupgraded kobalt, and then only one or two VLFs survive.

Don't forget, all things being equal the Vasari Light Frigates should have their self-repair ability active before Kodiaks start hitting the scene. I haven't played with it much, but I'd think that (greatly) extends their combat power.

Of course, they don't shoot or move while repairing, so it doesn't actually help unless they repair faster than they take damage.

Schod, proofread or something. I'm guessing that was supposed to be kodiak and not kobalt. Considering it takes five cobolts to kill one kodiak and have two survive, being able to manage it with 3 as vasari speaks to their comparative power to cobolts, but they still aren't a match for kodiaks. Kodiaks outperform cobolts even worse, numerically and monetarily.

actually it doesnt say that



yes but your forgetting that the TEC has been at peace for 1000 years, and the Vasari is already an ancient race which is already prepared for war.

I can see this is gonna get ugly.

After playing around some more as TEC, and the Vasari I have to agree with schod here. Vasari. My take on them now is that they are all about hit, and run. Stealth, and subterfuge. Watching them as AI is a bad example, because the AI is pretty pathetic right now. However "IF" they were the badass OMGWTFBBQPWN that everyone believed they were, then why would pirates kick their ass? Not just once, but in damn near every comp stomp game i played. Yet the TEC AI (which i am assuming the Vasari use the same AI). Can easily defend vs pirates. Again i know this is a bad example.

If TEC is the "zerg" rush of this game, and the Vasari are the sneaky bastards. I am afraid that the Advent may be the "tanks".

not militia kobalts.

oh give me a break, one little set of typos.

actually it does
they are supperior because they KNOW how to fight, not because their ships are better. thats the DIRECT consequence of what it says
"The Trader Worlds prospered in an era of lucrative trade and relative peace. Stories of their ancestor's wars had long since passed into the depths of the oldest archives; the methods and machines by which they conducted those affairs long since buried"
suggests TEC is RUSTY militarily, not nescessarily weak.

again your definition of strong relies on their hulls and shields and guns.

the Vasari are so damn technologically advanced that even your conception of advanced is outdated, hows that for metacognition.

once again I stress that the Vasari do not focus on physical attacks, they win because they can jump their whole fleet around in an instant, which makes them appear to have a massive force. their technology is focused on PHASESPACE
PPPPPPPPHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAASSSSSSSEEEEEEE SPACE.

I've seen massive pirate fleets growing up in one single hour, I'm beginning to question some stuff myself...

See this is the paradigm that I'm worried will continue to develop, the TEC are the zerg rushing tanks, its just that the Vasari have such a rediculous advantage against them that its of little concern

All i can say is.

The Vasari is my type of race. They might not have the holding power of the TEC in head on battles but I enjoy playing with a race where you actualy have to use tactics and your bloody mind to win, their superior technology also helps hehe.

I have never been a steam roller player, I stopped playing Sins a while back because I found the TEC boring and just a race of mass attack rinse repeat.

Atleast now with a extra race in the scene that does not employ the same tactics as the TEC makes it more interesting. Schod is right though, not a race for small 1v1 maps vs a TEC player unless the TEC player is a complete muppet. Oddly enough I have found myself playing the TEC as a tactical race instead of your normal steam rolling races, made battles interesting actually.

Back to the game.

simply the ammount of Kudos I'm getting (in a land where both kudos are rare, and I'm certainly not the person to give them to) is tantamount to public support.

thanks to all my adoring fans!
      

sigh. The Vasari ruled 10,000 years ago. The TEC came into formation 1,000 years ago. That suggests to me that the Vasari are going to have a leg-up on research & design.

Furthermore, again directly quoting:

The Trader Worlds prospered in an era of lucrative trade and relative peace. Stories of their ancestor's wars had long since passed into the depths of the oldest archives; the methods and machines by which they conducted those affairs long since buried. Consequently, when the Vasari Exodus Fleet arrived, the outlying Trader Worlds paid dearly.

In a battle for survival, the Traders find a new impetus to rediscover the ways of their savage past.


If you look at the lore, it suggestions:

-The TEC have been at peace
-They have forgotten the tactics and technology with which to mount large-scale war
-They need to rediscover those ways in an effort to defeat their opponents


Everything in the Lore has suggested to me that the TEC shouldn't even be close in matching the Vasari Exodus Fleet in power. But that they should have a significant numbers advantage due to the prosperity afforded by the lengthy peace they've enjoyed in their territories.

Here is what I would thus expect from each race:

TEC

-Significant trade/income/mining bonuses
-Cheaper units & buildings
-Weaker units & buildings
-Faster building construction (since their peaceful focus would not have endeared them to warship construction)
-Tech tree more focused towards economy/production

VASARI

-Complete lack of trade
-Faster ship production
-Slower building construction
-More expensive units & buildings
-Stronger units & buildings
-Tech tree focused towards warfare techs

Actually it still doesnt say that they are using superior tactics. It could as well be brute force just in smaller numbers.


and firepower ofcourse, as they are afterall an ancient race


They should be, but it aint so ingame.




VERY WELL SAID grandgnu

Thats exactly how it should be

Thank you Multianna.

If anyone is familiar with the Babylon 5 series, I view the Vasari as a "Shadow" type race while the TEC are obviously the Earth Alliance. And perhaps the Advent can be similar to the Minbari or something.

You can be a major pain in the ass at times schod, but you do come up with some valid points... sometimes

I think this issue is going to be one of the most controversial of this game (until we see the Advent). Everyone believed that the Vasari were going to be vastly superior to TEC in EVERY aspect. Mainly because of the how the lore was presented. For the most part its true, but apparently not in the area of raw combat until the very late game with all high level techs researched (Phase gates, and Summon dark fleet, Etc.).

I think people are not exactly sure how the Vasari are intended to be played. In my opinion they have a significant disadvantage in the early game. Not so much in strength, but in the speed in which they tech up to a point of survivability vs the zerg rush, or steamroll. Otherwise AI pirate raids wouldnt wipe an AI Vasari out.

Actually no. I don't really care about how strong certain ships from whatever race are. (Even though I expected the Vasari ships to be a bit more powerful.)

But what I don't like are the similarities between the Vasari and the TEC. I expected them to play completely different. Not just them being variations of the same theme. :/

Maybe they should be TANKS

For every Vasari ship , the TEC need 3 equivalent ships, and the Advent need 2 equivalent ships...

IMAGINE THE BATTLES

yeah

again that doesnt nescessarily mean that the Vasari have a leg up in terms of shear firepower

how many times to I have to say this? THE VASARI ARE POWERFUL, just not tanks.

you guys need to think way way way outside your classical stereotypes if you want to win, otherwise stick with the skilless TEC.

You should actually think outside YOUR classical stereotype so you dont even wanna play them, unless they got "special maps" and i qoute

That indicate that you agree on that they are underpowered.

So stop saying the are powerful since they are not.