Phase Jump capable Strike Craft

Agree. I was really expecting there to be more then just fighters or bombers. What about interceptors, or boarding ships that capture enemy ships, or bombs that attack the surface of planets?


I would love to be able to build SWACS and deploy them to scout out enemy territory, or nuke bombers that are carrying nuclear missiles and if they deploy them into the cluster of enemy ships it'll take them all out. Right now it feels like carriers are kind of under utilized and that fighters are in there as a side strategy, but I'd like it if things were kicked up a notch and they were made a serious strategy.

Like the OP said, being able to build an advanced fighter and bomber wing to launch into an enemy territory to make hit and run raids against their fighter bombers, and not control capital ships but instead watch desperate dog fights as my fighters try their best to take out key military targets and possibly escape to make it back alive.... oh the excitement and grandeur.

corvettes was taken out long ago, because of some balance issues

I wholeheartedly agree as well. With that said I doubt the devs will support this concept as it just smacks of micromanagement literally and figuratively.

As long as they allow Phase Space capable strikecraft to be modded into the game engine, I'll be happy. Imagine trying to make a Star Wars mod with rebel star fighters being unable to hyperspace. Imagine a Battlestar Galactica mod without Raptors or Cylon fighters being able to FTL jump. It would kind of suck, wouldn't it?

Ironclad, if you can't include Phase Space capable strikecraft in the basic game, please allow us to be able to mod them into the game engine.

I doubt strikecraft will be able to jump into phase space.

It screws the tactical situation of the game too much, there's no point in jumping your 12 capship fleet into the enemy gravwell that has a phasespace inhibitor. You just keep sending waves and waves of strikecraft until you take out enough enemy ships/defense installations that you fleet will completely bulldoze whats left.

Meanwhile your opponent has no way of stopping the hordes of strike craft that keep jumping into his system

Well, he could come out of his hiding place and break your toys.

Yeah, he will be left defenseless....unless your opponent actually decides to build some ships and strike craft as well. But that is just crazy talk

If you notice your opponent using that type of tactic, it is a simple thing to start making a greater number of flak frigates. In fact, by introducing Phase Space capable strike craft, you add a lot more 'paper, rock, scissors' decision depth to the game.

Also keep in mind that Phase Space capable strike craft will take a LOT longer to build than the regular models. So you might be able to kill off a few key installations by using suicide swarm tactics with your Phase Space strike craft, but then your fleet will be left vulnerable without bombers or fighters for a short period. A smart player will counter attack immediately after killing your suicide swarm....which could be a trap in itself.

Anyway, it is clear that Phase Space strike craft would offer a lot more strategic depth to the game.

Other then the longer build time I also think an added tactical consideration should be that the production of the craft should deplete a percentage of AM from the mothership for that extra special gusto. That will balance them out nicely methinks.

@Wedge and para

I'm only going off current phase space mechanics right now, but there's no reason why you'd put your carrier fleet anywhere near where an enemy fleet would jump into your system. Put it completely on the opposite side of the system and just keep launching waves of fighters.

I really don't believe that being able to suicide free strikecraft into important enemy installations like phase space inhibs or hangers is a good thing. You'd be killing off enemy resources without losing any of your own.

I kind of like the idea. war by attrition.

but the best way to exploit your enemies foolish moves is to place a Kol battleship with the flak burst right where they descend from hyperspace.

Sure, someone could use a large carrier group to continually launch Phase Space jump capable bomber waves against you. However, you could counter with extra flak frigates, fighter squads and KOL Battleships (with flak burst upgrades). You might lose ships and platforms to each attack, but your opponent will need a LOT of time to rebuild those Phase Space capable bombers (Phase Space capable strike craft would require a high level of research and need to take a long time to build in order for the game to remain balanced). While your opponent is trying to rebuild those bomber squads, that would be the ideal time for you to counter attack with your fleet (equipped of course with quickly built basic bombers and fighters).

Long range suicide wave attacks aren't the only function Phase Space capable strike craft would be used for. Here are some examples of additional tactical/strategic uses:

-If your opponent has the exit point of his gravity well covered with a powerful defensive force, Phase Space capable strike craft could go in first. They would punch through the defenses, and force the enemy defenders to pursue...reducing the total enemy firepower covering the exit point. If the enemy doesn't bother to follow your Phase Space strike craft away from the exit point, you can then destroy all vulnerable installations/platforms at your leisure (including any Phase Space Inhibitors)...you can even jump deeper into the next enemy held gravity well and see how much damage can be done there. Most likely though, your opponent will try to deal with these advanced strike craft as soon as they show up.

-Phase Space capable strike craft would obviously be a lot faster and more maneuverable than capital ships or frigates. Therefore, they would make an ideal force for covering two (or more) key positions at once. They would also be able to reach a besieged ally more quickly than your capital ships or frigates could ever arrive.

As for you Schem, good call on the KOL Battleships. You would just need to manage the upgrades manually to some extent, otherwise ALL your KOL Battleships would fire at the first bomber wave to show up, leaving the next squadrons open.

To further push the argument, I believe jump capable strike craft are a very practical and necessary convention for the tactical aspects of the game. They fill a very big hole in the offensive and defensive matrix that currently exists within the game. In short they serve as the "shock and awe" component for an aggressively postured player as well as a "minuteman" first line of defense for the conservatively oriented player.

Moreover they can add a level of refinement to the lore aspects if the developers so choose.

You said it, 1Spartan. The more 'paper, rock, scissors' components we add to the game, the more strategic/tactical options are available for players.

There is one little problem that the game mechanics will have in dealing with Phase Space capable strike craft. As the game works now, capital ships/hangars immediately begin making replacement fighters/bombers as soon as squad members get killed off. What happens when a squadron a few gravity wells distance away loses a few individual bombers and the capital ship starts trying to replace them? As the capital ship makes new bombers, will they automatically launch and try to rejoin the distant squad? That could become awkward and wasteful if you don't want that to happen.

The best way that I can see to deal with this problem is to give Capital Ships/Hangars a toggle switch that prevents any fighter/bombers from launching. By this, I mean there could be a setting on Hangars and Capital ships that prevents automatic launching of new fighters and bombers. This way, you can control when your squad members try to reunite, or even prevent them from ever trying.

*Just make sure that the Launch Lock Down toggle works for Ctrl grouped ships/hangars. It could get tedious micro managing every carrier/hangar you own.

Also, the long build time of Phase Space strike craft will also minimize the above mentioned problem. Most times, your entire squad will be wiped out before even the first new replacement squad member is created.

Hmmm, I just noticed that my above mentioned Launch Lock Down toggle switch would be useful in more ways than just dealing with Phase Space capable strike craft.

Sometimes, you want to jump past a gravity well without losing fighters/bombers to the local defenses...especially if the local defenses have strong anti strike craft capability. Being able to force your strike craft to stay indoors would be useful.

A more likely tactical use would involve long battles where you've lost all your strike craft (damn flak frigates!). Your replacement strike craft get launched as your capital ships/hangars produce them, but then get killed trying to do weak piece meal attacks that do nothing. You would be better off holding off for a bit and building up a swarm of strike craft to attack. The Launch Lock Down toggle switch would allow you to build up your replacement strike craft power for a more concentrated attack.

Sure, there is already a 'Dock All' button, but it will also call back all bombers/fighters that are in battle = they still die and don't even get to shoot back as they try to dock with your capital ships/hangars. The Lock Down toggle would allow strike craft already in battle to do their thing while your capital ships/hangars build up a concentrated replacement strike force as the original squad members get killed off.

I dont think it would be an issue to add the lock down button given there already are similar buttons that can tell the ships what to do.

On a related topic, currently I get the feeling that this game focuses on capital ships sort of like Star Trek if you will. I think the intent from the lore I have read is for a more personal focus; such as one would normally see from a fighter group or flight wing and the always present unit cohesion and loyalty factor exhibited. The best example of this would be the new BattleStar Galactica show.

This is so because sins are socially attributed to individuals and small groups by extension throughout recorded history. So logic would dictate that on an empire wide scale cosmology that the sins must be ingrained as part of the most fundamental psyche of a social group member. Thus reflecting the "members" as individuals or ultra small work unit teams (read as fighters/bombers) would boost the immersion factor on a psychological as well as an emotional level.

The devs have already stated this game is not going to be a rock, paper, scissors game. And rock, paper, scissors doesn't add tactical value to the game, it just makes things look funny. Take for instance the C&C games, since when do tank shells barely scratch infantry? See my point?

I hate to break the news to you, Advalary. Sins already has a 'rock, papper, scissor' system.

Here is an example of what is meant by 'rock, paper, sissors' in relation to Sins. Flak Frigates beat strike craft. Strike Craft beat capital ships/frigates. Capital ships/frigates beat Flak Frigates.

If the developers add Phase Space capable strike craft, this would add another layer of depth to the game's warfare system. This means more possibilities for the player.

Also, I don't play the C&C games. But in real life, armor piercing tank shells barely do damage to infantry units. For example, the British tanks in Africa during WWII would use either armor piercing OR high explosive. British tanks that carried only armor piercing would often encounter 88mm anti-aircraft (anti-tank) guns, but couldn't do any damage to the infantry operating the guns (unless extremely lucky). This usually resulted in knocked out British tanks.

Adding jump capable fighters are not necessary.



First and foremost, what's the point of building a defense if it's useless against an attack? That player is doing the most logical thing; making it easier for the attacker to break through rewards the aggressor and not the defender.

Building flak frigates takes time, certainly not enough time if you have a wave of bombers directed at your factories. Should I have prepared first? Absolutely not, fighters are supposed to remain with their capital ships and not jump out in the first place! Why not add a flak turret? Because it's repetitive to add these things when you don't actually need fighters to be jump-capable at all!

You can break this defense by doing what you always do: jump in a larger fleet. Don't like the casualty rates? Then don't jump in and blockade his only exit. He can only get so much resources if you've got half the galaxy under your hand. If it's not his only exit, jump in on his other entrances. Force him to split up his fleet. In chess, if the enemy king is surrounded by pawns, you can't expect the creators to give you a break and hand you micro-pieces to break through and dsetroy the pawns. You have to go in there, and you have to lose your units to get your objective. There's no reason for bomber and fighter wings to jump in if your capital ships can't do the job. They're not supposed to be your attack force!

This strategy you describe as sending in fighters and bombers en masse can be used for scout frigates as well. Why don't you just send 30 scout frigates in? Even if they're not effective, your capital ships don't take the brunt of the damage.



You also have to remember the logistics behind fighters and bombers. They are not supposed to be an attacking force, only a supplement to turn the tide in some battles. Like I said, that's what scout frigates are for; they're not slow, and you can build a lot of them.

Besides, speed adds a factor to strategy. Do you help your ally? Or do you attack your opponent when he is weak? Which is more faster? Being to cover your mistakes (for example, having only one fleet, or spreading out your fleet too thin) is just wrong.



I don't believe so. Like I said, what's the difference between an equal force of scout frigates? If you want a better defense, build more units and station them there. If you want a better offense, build more units.

Hi Inert, try reading what I, 1Spartan and the others have been writing before trying to shoot it down. I don't mind if you disagree with us, but please don't misinterpret or ignore what we have already said about the points you brought up.

For starters, you mention something about defenses being useless against Phase Space capable strike craft. Why would that be? For example, my Phase capable bombers could jump into your system, and attempt to fly through your line of capital ships and flak frigates to try and reach less defended installations/platforms on the other side of that gravity well. Let's assume you have a reasonably capable defensive fleet. Unless you've for some reason ordered your ships not to fire, they will cause quite a few casualties before my bombers clear them. Even then, my bombers will have to content with any pursuing fighter squads your capital ships might be carrying. Also, you will be able to replace any fighter loses fairly quickly while I am stuck with what I brought to the battle.

So defense against a Phase Space bomber raid is more than possible. Also, having such strike craft in the game encourages players to use a balanced fleet to deal with all potential tactical situations. Two of the marks of a good war game is 1)balanced fleets tend to do well and 2)no single unit is over or under powered.

As for the tactical example that you quoted, I was trying to show what would happen if your opponent didn't bother responding to a bomber raid penetration and let them go on their merry way unopposed...something that any competent strategist won't let happen. So you misunderstood the example.

Next, you mention that flak frigates would take longer to make than Phase Capable strike craft....where did you get that from? 1Spartan and I have for balancing reasons been saying all along that Phase capable strike craft would take FAR longer to build than non-Phase Capable strike craft. So, in fact, you could possibly build flak frigates quickly enough to keep up with bomber attacks if your opponent is lame enough to send endless wave after wave of bombers at you. Of course, you could just counter attack as soon as you've killed off an entire bomber raid and catch your opponent's fleet without strike craft support.

Next, you say something about how you shouldn't have to prepare your forces to deal with enemy bombers and then some other thing about how flak turrets are repetitive. Well, you understand that even without Phase capable strike craft, a lot of us like to play with carriers and bomber groups. If you don't want to be prepared for that type of attack, that is your choice. Also, the KOL Battleship already has a Flak Turret upgrade, in case you didn't know.

Next, you say that fighter and bomber's are meant to act as a fleet supplement to battles. I guess you haven't' seen how quickly bomber swarms take down enemy ships/installations. Maybe you don't quite grasp the speed advantages that those strike craft swarms possess. I think you might be a bit mistaken in labeling strike craft as supplemental.

Finally, you basically argue that Phase capable strike craft shouldn't be included in the game because you can do similar jobs with other units. I don't get it, are you seriously telling us that you want less units in the game? I hate to tell you this, but most of us want more. The more unit types and abilities, the deeper the depth of strategy and tactics.

Phase Space capable strike craft aren't meant to be uber super units. They would have the same stats as their non-Phase capable brethren (maybe even less). The difference is that they would take a much longer time to build. Effectively, Phase capable strike craft would be used for surprise raids or fast moving reinforcements. However, once your opponent starts to compensate with more fighter squads and flak frigates, they would get the upper hand...unless you change up your strategy once again.

Please keep in mind I am talking about, possibly, about 30 systems in two galaxies. There is no way to have a defense against everything, including jump-capable strikecraft when you own about 20 planets. It's ridiculous to build that much defense (flak frigates, fighters) just to avoid getting hit by 15 squadrons of "jump craft".

As you have pointed out, strikecraft are powerful; nevermind that they are overpowered. 15 squadrons (say, 9 bombers/6 fighters) can obliterate a fleet of normal frigates; it'd take some 10 flak frigates to have a reasonable chance to destroy them. 10 flak frigates per system is a waste. Hangars? 7 Hangars nets you 14 fighters, just a enough (I hope) to take out the squadrons.

Now, you say that the time it takes to replenish them is long, but that doesn't matter when you finally attack. They still cost nothing. Capital ships cost a ton, and take a while to build, which makes them valuable.

OK. I'm not going to readdress what Para already did in his prior post. So I'll address the last one from Inert.

First of you say "there is no way to have a defense against everything - etc.." then you go on to negate your statement by arguing it is ridiculous. The reasoning is highly flawed to say the least. If the game is designed properly there will always be a way to defend against everything in the game if it is a free forum type of game. Moreover "ridiculous" is an extremely relative word so there is no point in addressing it within its current context for obvious reasons. I will reference it in general shortly however.

Secondly regarding the "overpowered" argument the perception is so if one does not have a balanced fleet with anti strike unit capabilities. I can say the same for frigs if I only build a single type of capital ship. It is all about a solid mix of capabilities that keep the game interesting and fun in the long run. Defensive and offensive strategies will vary depending on the player and his/her goals and objectives. Which by the way should be fluid if the person is a strategy gamer worth their salt.

Finally what you may consider ridiculous others may find core to their style. In the end it should always be about options and balance and I dont mean balance regarding interactive dynamics but in the provided tools within the game. The choice is yours how to use the tools. That is supposed to be the point of a strategy game and the more options you have the more possibilities there are and the more depth of play one can achieve.

You misunderstand. I say there is no possible defense against jump craft when you have about 20+ systems. I say this because it is ridiculous to have to build a defense that spans 20+ systems to avoid a relatively small number of squadrons, give or take, of strikecraft. I acknowledge there exists defenses, but I insist that applying it to a large number of systems is annoying.

"Overpowered" is perhaps my perception, but when a squadron of bombers can deal more damage than a single frigate, I question it. I do not refer or bring up the fact that it can not be countered, but in the situation where there lacks proper anti-strikecraft, it is more powerful than a frigate and that disturbs me.

Your mixing apples and oranges I think. Jump capable strike craft are no different then other jump capable ships. The defenses you are referring to building would be for any ship that can travel behind your lines. Moreover you are assuming one would build the same defensive system for each planet. Your also making several other assumptions. But I think I illustrated my point already so I'll move on...

Additionally if you have 20 planets hopefully you would have a patrol task force anyway to deal with nuisance raids.

Regarding the frigate vs bomber firepower argument, The strike craft dont have anywhere near the protective capacities as the frigates. It is ultimately a trade off of attack, defense, movement, firepower, speed and cost. The frigates are also stand alone ships whereas the strike aircraft are dependent on a ship that costs far more then a single frigate.

Moreover they are functionally no different then the lazes on ships that can fire endlessly as long as the ship survives encounters. So I do not consider them "free". Furthermore I would also expect that a squadron would easily do more damage then a single frigate.

Strike craft are powerful, and if you insist on keeping them in their state, then you must limit them to poor armour and short range. It doesn't fit a logical order to have strike craft right up there with frigates in terms of firepower. Fighters are smaller, naturally they should do less damage. Giving them the chance to freely engage planets outside of their capital ships removes the check on their power.

I'm not arguing a fighter or bomber for that matter, should be anywhere near a frigate in offensive or defensive capacities as a single entity. A squadron or two of them should however easily be able to neutralize a single frigate.

Additionally your argument about being smaller "naturally" means less damage is in error. There are a plethora of natural as well as man made examples that make that position untenable with any degree of reason.