Where is the OUTRAGE?

If you haven't seen outcry over the prison system, you haven't been looking. Liberation theologians in America have bemoaned the plight of our prison system for years, Libertarians have decried the incarceration of perpetrators of victimless crimes, left and right humanitarians alike have decried the death penalty. The difference between this and Abu Ghraib is that the latter is fresh and new and the former is a drum many of us have been beating for years, to the point where many who listen to it have become accustomed to the drone.

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I see and understand gid, I just wanted to point out while it seems most are decrying the "torture" going on overseas, the torure at home is overlooked or become old news.

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Yet not a word about our own prison system and the inhumane treatment of the humans stockpiled there.

Can you explain what you mean by 'inhumane' treatment of American prisoners in American jails and prisons?

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dharma,

In Texas, an audit of a county jail's books showed a man who was sentenced to 30 days for vagrancy being held over 90 days beyond his scheduled release date.

In many prisons, prison rpe has been seen as so much a part of the culture that it is overlooked by the guards (my own experience in a county jail at 18 when I was threatened by an inmate was to be sent to "the hole" and my sentence extended due to fabrications made by the inmate, who entered my cell intending to kill me).

Granted, most abuses in the American system pale in comparison to Abu Ghraib, but I remain staunch in my contention that those who call prison a "country club" have never served time in prison.

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Reply By: Gideon MacLeishPosted: Monday, January 24, 2005dharma,

what gid said and much more dharma.... just type american prison abuse in the url bar and keep a waste basket by you for vomiting... here is one nasty example in calif, where I live, Prisoners being made to fight on an other, while the guards bet on it.. this is "real" fighting kicking biteing, chokeing etc.

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There's a big difference between 'inhumane' treatment and outright abuse, though.

I'll agree that there are incidents of prisoners abusing other prisoners, and I will also agree that there are 'rogue' guards who take pleasure in encouraging inmate violence. However, not all corrections officers are like that, just as not all inmates are abused and tortured.

Anytime you put a bunch of people who are inclined to violence in the same place with limited recreational facilities...well, that's a recipe for disaster. These convicts couldn't behave themselves in society, so what makes anyone think they're going to be able themselves whilst they're incarcerated? Yes, the prison guards are there to protect the inmates from each other, but they cannot have eyes on them 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The more violent offenders are sometimes moved to a SHU (secure housing unit) to protect not only themselves but the general prison population from them....but as soon as that's done, people start screaming 'abuse' and 'inhumane conditions'. You can't win.

Gid, can you give me a reference for the vagrant issue? I'd like to go research that one. Oh, and I did a number of searches for 'american prison abuse' and found almost nothing relating to US penetentiaries.

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Ok heres something you can get your teeth into.... In new york sing sing prison a nortorious place was condemned in the 60s by the federal court.. soon after it reopened as sing sing correctionl facility, then long court again and condemned again reopened as sing sing
medical facility.. condemned again reopened as ossning corr.fac condemned reopened as ossning reception center, condemned, reopened as ossning medical and reception center.... If any of us tried this shit we would be hung by the courts. but since only prisoner were involved there was no cry of hey!!!! this is wrong... last time I looked its still open btw.

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www.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent. cgi?article=1014&context=mwjhr

www.suite101.com/article.cfm/prisoner_advocacy/109487 - 26k -

www.november.org/abuse/

here ya go dharma

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I guess I have no sympathy for them, just the victims of their crimes.

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here ya go dharma

Thanks, I'll go check those out.

I guess I have no sympathy for them, just the victims of their crimes.

I have empathy for the perpetrators of the crimes, in that I wouldn't like to be locked up in a place like that. But, they have to accept the punishment that comes with the conviction of the crime. Prison is a punishment; it's not for rehabilitation or a mini break. They're getting more in jail than a lot of law abiding people get - food, shelter, medical care and a chance to better themselves through education.

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ModMan: the first 2 links are broken, and the last one deals with lynching in the 60's, Vietnamese war crimes, and Abu Ghraib.

I have searched for unbiased articles about prisoner torture and abuse in the US penetentiary system, and as yet I haven't managed to find any. I will keep looking, and I'll let you know if I find any.

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I have empathy for the perpetrators of the crimes, in that I wouldn't like to be locked up in a place like that. But, they have to accept the punishment that comes with the conviction of the crime. Prison is a punishment; it's not for rehabilitation or a mini break. They're getting more in jail than a lot of law abiding people get - food, shelter, medical care and a chance to better themselves through education.

Their victims dont get that, and in some cases, they dont even get to breath.

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sorry about that dharma... but seek and you will find..

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Reply #9 By: Dr. Guy - 1/24/2005 5:11:24 PM
I guess I have no sympathy for them, just the victims of their crimes.

from personal experence I know that there are some good humans in the prison system {I go once a month to visit} plus I am going to break my own anonimity and say also once a month I go hold a group for drug and alkie abusers..My good friend that is serving time in the hell hole known as soledad isd there for ther sale of 1/4 pound of smoke... 7 years he got..and the tales he tells me make my hair stand on end.. and I am NOT easy to shock.

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Reply #12 By: Dr. Guy - 1/24/2005 6:11:37 PM

Their victims dont get that, and in some cases, they dont even get to breath.

now thats the truth... but we only warehouse them not rehab them... many come out worse that they were when they went in..

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but we only warehouse them not rehab them... many come out worse that they were when they went in..

Yeah, that's what happens when you put a bunch of criminals in a small space together.

Who said that prison is about rehabilitation, anyway? What happened to prison being a punishment for breaking the law?

I'll agree that there are some decent human beings in the system, but they are there because the broke the law and they got caught. It may be for murder, it may be for drug possession or petty larceny...but the fact remains that jail is the consequence to their actions.

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... percent of these prisoners are African-American women, who ... experienced some form of sexual abuse prior to ... incarcerated in the 170 state prison facilities for ...
www.cfdp.ca/boje.htm - 62k - Jan 23, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

try this dharma i was just there

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from personal experence I know that there are some good humans in the prison system {I go once a month to visit} plus I am going to break my own anonimity and say also once a month I go hold a group for drug and alkie abusers..My good friend that is serving time in the hell hole known as soledad isd there for ther sale of 1/4 pound of smoke... 7 years he got..and the tales he tells me make my hair stand on end.. and I am NOT easy to shock.

Then name names and places. My BIL is a guard at one of those 'warehouses'. And it is not like this at all.

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Reply #16 By: dharmagrl - 1/24/2005 6:38:24 PM
but we only warehouse them not rehab them... many come out worse that they were when they went in..

Yeah, that's what happens when you put a bunch of criminals in a small space together.

Who said that prison is about rehabilitation, anyway? What happened to prison being a punishment for breaking the law?

I am not sure you would not sing a diff tune if it was you or a loved one dharma.inside the walls

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Reply #18 By: Dr. Guy - 1/24/2005 6:39:51 PM
from personal experence I know that there are some good humans in the prison system {I go once a month to visit} plus I am going to break my own anonimity and say also once a month I go hold a group for drug and alkie abusers..My good friend that is serving time in the hell hole known as soledad isd there for ther sale of 1/4 pound of smoke... 7 years he got..and the tales he tells me make my hair stand on end.. and I am NOT easy to shock.

Then name names and places. My BIL is a guard at one of those 'warehouses'. And it is not like this at all.

I will not name names drguy...... nor will I put myself and friends at risk. ok? yer just gonna have to take it on word that horrible things happen..

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Article: American Prisons Suffer Abuse This is an excert from one of the site I sent you dharma

Prisoner Advocacy and the Criminal Justice System - American Prisons Suffer Abuse
Home > Social sciences > Law > Criminal law

Author: Lynn R. Hartz, Ph.D.
Contributor(s): originally published in The Charleston Gazette, June 7, 2004

Published on: July 7, 2004

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The pictures of the Iraqi prisoners, detainees — whatever the “politically correct” word for these people is this time — are absolutely disgusting and demeaning. The humiliation of humankind for whatever reasons is undesirable. Torture is unconscionable. These Iraqi prisons and the one at Guantanamo Bay have received much attention because of the abuses that the prisoners have been subjected to.
But here in the United States we have more than 2.5 million people in prisons, and many of them are being as humiliated and abused as the people at Guantanamo Bay and in the Iraqi prisons. Recent articles state that some of the people who are U.S. military police, guards, intelligence officers and such at these prisons have come from the U.S. prison system. The U.S. prison system is where much of the treatment has been taught.

There are unbelievable abuses in the United States prison system. The federal system, which is operated by the federal government, is different than the state systems. The one thing that they all have in common is that they are abusive in various ways.

One of the most atrocious articles that I have read recently had to do with women in prison in Texas. When they are transported from one place to another, the women are chained together, and their hands are chained to the floor in vans. They are not allowed bathroom breaks or time to take care of their personal needs when their monthly menstrual cycles occur. That could mean that these women would go for hours without the opportunity to go to the bathroom. But, even worse than that, they would be chained in positions that animals wouldn’t even be chained in if they were being transported somewhere. Abuse? Yes. Torture? Yes. Has it stopped? Not from my last correspondence with a female inmate in Texas.

Texas is also noted for the way it allows women inmates to give birth. They are chained to the hospital bed, allowing very little movement during the birth process. Abuse? Yes. Torture? I would definitely say so. Has it stopped? Probably not. The last I read was that they planned to only partially chain them to the bed while giving birth.

The federal system has a program that is much more humane. The women inmates who are pregnant live in a house outside of the prison. They give birth in a local hospital and then are allowed to stay at the house until the baby is three months old in order to “bond” with the baby. That’s a good idea, except then, suddenly, the woman has to go back to prison, and the baby is given to someone else to raise. The emotional trauma that the woman experiences is close to abuse and torture. Depending on the support of the family, the baby may or may not be given to the family. If it isn’t, then the baby is given to human services for placement in foster care.

Women are also subjected to abuse from both female and male guards. The whys and wherefores related to this abuse vary. The female correctional officers may be trying to move up the employment ladder and be promoted. If that is part of their personal agenda, they will do things such as unnecessary strip searches, cell searches and such, hoping to “look good” to the administration and get that next promotion. The male guards might have sexual relationships with the women inmates in return for favors. That might be something as mundane as a piece of candy to a better work assignment for the female inmate. Abuse of power? Most definitely. And yes, women have been impregnated by male correctional officers.

Then, for additional abusive situations in this country, take a good look at Arizona. The Arizona prison system has people living in tents in the desert — blazing hot in the summer and cold at night. The tents are heated with space heaters. The inmates have to buy their own clothes. And, at some of the jails, the men are forced to wear pink underwear! Humiliation? I would say so. Not only that, this type of treatment should be stopped immediately.

Then, there are the abuse problems inside the men’s prisons. The maximum-security prisons have limited contact for visitors. Loss of visitation privileges is often held over the inmate’s head. “The hole” is still used for “disciplinary action,” but it is simply called by a different name. “Administrative segregation” is the term that is used. Some of the correctional officers like to use their authority for this type of control frequently. That is mild compared to the experiences that the inmates might have.

There are beatings, often for unknown reasons. There have been incidences of food being taken away. There have been cell searches and trumped-up charges related to items that an inmate might have, even if they were obtained through proper channels. Abuse? Definitely.

The psychological games the correctional officers play are just as sick, and provide just as much torment and torture mentally. Some of the correctional officers look for reasons to put an inmate back in “the hole.” They play favorites and games. The brighter and more intelligent the inmate, the more games that are played.

Inmates on death row are allowed out of their cells one hour a day for exercise and are not even allowed contact with other inmates. One man’s case is still under appeal after 15 years — and there is evidence to prove his innocence. All this time, the man has no family to help and needs shoes, which he is expected to buy himself. However, he isn’t allowed to work in the prison and make any money. Isn’t there something wrong with this picture?

The abuse in the U.S.-run foreign prisons is atrocious. The military, especially the commanding officers, should be held responsible for what has happened. But, with as many citizens as are in prisons in the United States, there should be more focus on how they are operated, the offenses of humiliation, abuse, torture and degradation, and it should be stopped.

After all, prisoners are people, too.

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I will not name names drguy...... nor will I put myself and friends at risk. ok? yer just gonna have to take it on word that horrible things happen..

Sorry, MM, I Meant dont paint the whole system with the brush of an evil few. I did not mean name names as in Joe Bob and Billy Ray. But in Sing Sing, and Soledad. And any others.

I did work for the DOC here in the COV so I know that while it happens, it is not tolerated and will be dealt with very harshly.

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I am not sure you would not sing a diff tune if it was you or a loved one dharma.inside the walls

Actually, I turned in my brother for bringing narcotics to my house. He showed no respect for me or my family, and he put my husband's career at risk, so I had him arrested and he did time. I'm not sorry that I did it either. He had to learn that there are consequences for breaking the law.

The Arizona prison system has people living in tents in the desert — blazing hot in the summer and cold at night. The tents are heated with space heaters. The inmates have to buy their own clothes. And, at some of the jails, the men are forced to wear pink underwear! Humiliation? I would say so.

Jail isn't a vacation. There are thousands of law abiding citizens in Arizona who go without A/C because they can't afford it, so why should criminals get it for free? Why should convicts live in better conditions that the troops fighting the war in Iraq? As for the pink underwear....they did that so the prisoners would be less likely to steal them when they left. Is it humiliating? No, I don't think so. Humiliating would be making them go naked, or making them wear signs declaring themselves to be dumbasses.

Then, there are the abuse problems inside the men’s prisons. The maximum-security prisons have limited contact for visitors. Loss of visitation privileges is often held over the inmate’s head.

That's standard procedure for any facility. You misbehave, you get things taken away. Usually it starts off with television privileges, the visitation, and finally they get put into segregation for a while until they can behave like a normal person again.

There are beatings, often for unknown reasons.

Show me the names and facilities this happened in, and I'll go research it.

There have been incidences of food being taken away.

Again, that's like taking away TV and visitation. Prisoners are never denied some kind of sustinence....they may be on a bread and water diet for 48 hours as a punishment for some infraction of the rules, but to accuse staff of starving prisoners....again, give me specific dates, names and places and I'll go research it.

I think that you're getting 'torture' confused with 'discipline'. Here's a scenario for you...if an inmate was caught sodomizing another inmate, what would you want to happen to him? Wouldn't you want him to be punished? Well, taking away his TV, putting him in segregation, and restricing his diet to bread and water for a couple of days is considered disciplnary action.

I honestly don't know what people expect from prisons....I think that a lot of people are under the impression that everyone in the pen is a genuinely nice person who just made a mistake...when in fact, half the a-holes that are in there would slit your throat as soon as look at you.

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...when in fact, half the a-holes that are in there would slit your throat as soon as look at you.

I aagree but how about the other half? and how about the 6% that are innocent of the crimes they are in prison for... now thats torture... how about sitting on death row for 10 or more years KNOWING your innocent?

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I aagree but how about the other half? and how about the 6% that are innocent of the crimes they are in prison for... now thats torture... how about sitting on death row for 10 or more years KNOWING your innocent?

That is not a fault of the penal system, but of the judicial system. Dont throw the baby out just because the diaper is soiled.

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Where is the OUTRAGE?

sad but true