The_Biz

Join Date 11/2009

balance/gameplay thoghts

i like the basic idea of the game, but the balance seems way off.

usually making the game harder can fix things, but i don't think the difficulty levels are well-designed in this game. i already feel that most of the spells/units are useless on insane difficulty. making the enemies even stronger just makes the game even more restrictive because the same tactics are too strong / too weak every single time since there's no variety in the opponent.

things that almost work:

it can be really interesting to decide where to spend resources, particularly the mana pool. unfortunately, nothing stops me from just getting lots of shards or spamming cities to make mana. even on insane, i can easily afford everything (and i barely know how to play the game).
the tactical combat works for the role it has in the early game, because it's quick and each unit matters. when there are too many battles/units and i'm able to confidently auto-resolve, then that means i've already won
progression of technologies/skills/units is nice and fast, but it leaves the middle and end of the game very boring
deciding what to do with essence or how to grow cities can be interesting, but it's too cheap to enchant and re-enchant, and cities in general don't have much importance
diplomacy/trading with the sorcerer king is a nice idea, but what i pick doesn't seem to matter because the consequences don't seem to matter.

things that don't work:

the sorcerer king's attacks are not a threat. only his doomsday timer matters. he is ok at attacking cities if i don't pay attention or i forget to make mountain walls, but he leaves all the outposts and resources alone.
the quests don't feel related to the main gameplay at all. it feels like the game wants to me role-play with wisdom/cruelty/courage/compassion but nothing seems to matter because it's just side-quests affecting side-quests.
battles take way too long in the second half of the game. enemies get stronger faster than my damage scales with shards. it just becomes 12v12 instead of 3v3.
heroes/sovereigns aren't customizable or strategic enough. i'm not able to craft a build that goes along with my strategy. i'm just getting all the upgrades, even ones i'll never use. and then i use equipment to buff random stats without making any interesting choices. instead, everything should be about synergy with my grand plan or role-playing with character/story choices. XP is completely separate on a parallel track. with the exception of 1 or 2 forging prerequisites and the small mana expense, equipment is also completely separate.
there's nothing interesting to build or research in the second half of the game. sometimes, i finish the tech trees (hero/sovereign/spells/cities) long before doomsday or even exploring half of the map. i haven't played with the doomsday timer settings too much, but maybe there should be something between the fast and the medium setting. medium speed is not enough pressure, even on insane difficulty.
there is no reason to use or train the early/weak units. if i took a risk to earn them or if i put in some effort to build them, i want them to matter more. instead it's better for me to just replace them with paladins or something
for the most part, the loot/equipment/customization is not interesting. occasionally getting a lucky loot drop is fun, but that's pretty rare and it's unlikely to really affect the game even when it does happen since getting +5 instead of +2 is so inconsequential. either i don't have a choice (limited ingredients/recipes), or i pick the same thing every time (because opponents are the same every time), or it doesn't matter what i pick (items aren't influential enough). none of those situations is compelling strategy gameplay or RPG gameplay. and when i have 200 equipment decisions to make just for 1 stack, it's too much
the rival kingdoms were just short-term trading partners in my games. they ally with the sorcerer king too quickly after i discover them. after that they are just space on the map. they don't seem to actually do anything even with the latest patch and highest difficulty

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2415

This is really good feedback. I've made a few tweaks based on it.

Outposts and resources can't be destroyed so the SK doesn't bother attacking them.

The choices you make in quests affect the choices available to you during the final confrontation as well as what random events you will get during the game. They also affect which units the SK has access to.

I agree with you regarding the early game units. I'll have to put some thought on how best to address that. I don't think I can do much for 1.0 but I think units going up levels should unlock special abilities and such for them in a future update. Thus, that level 10 soldier is way better than a level 1 paladin.

The rivals have been balanced heavily in recent days. In the next update, you should notice a dramatic improvement.

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Your idea about the early game units is very good.And i have three more proposal based on the above feedback.

-Have a slider at the pre-game setup where we can choose if there is a limit to how many cities and outposts we can build.

-For city diversity we need some hard choices.For cities choose between a library(gives more powerful spells to research),and war academy which lets you produce a new unit or unlock some special ability that depends on which sovereign you have chosen.The same could be done for outposts with a final upgrade option between 3 choices for their zoc.One with big mobility(or even stealth?),one for attack power,and one for more defense bonus like more hp and something like that.

-For heroes diversity they still need some tweaking in their skills,and with that and maybe some more options in a new patch we could have drogon the dwarf(sorry if i am mistaking the name)play like a berserker in one game and like a shield-axe combo with buffs in another game.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2415

In Post-Release, there will be a lot more attention on making each city very different. I.e. each city will be like a hero unto itself with its own tree.

Similarly, I think there's a lot more we can do with those early game units. I want to be rewarded for taking care of my units.

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Each city will be like a hero?That's not a great idea.That's one of the BEST ideas EVER!!!!

Seriously as i have said again and again you have a very good core game(and quite enjoyable also),and it's up to balancing and adding carefully stuff to make it one of the best ever in it's category.

And one last proposal.Please consider a town screen like Heroes 7.A static town screen with little movement when you hover the cursor over a building,or a small animation when you build something new,but it will add so much to the atmosphere and the feel of the game.Right now the town screen is too small.At least make it full screen.

Thanks again for being so talkative and responsive in the forums,and the feedback that people give you.

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XWerewolfX

Join Date 02/2006

+31

Quoting Spawn116,

reply 4

Each city will be like a hero?That's not a great idea.That's one of the BEST ideas EVER!!!!

Seriously as i have said again and again you have a very good core game(and quite enjoyable also),and it's up to balancing and adding carefully stuff to make it one of the best ever in it's category.

And one last proposal.Please consider a town screen like Heroes 7.A static town screen with little movement when you hover the cursor over a building,or a small animation when you build something new,but it will add so much to the atmosphere and the feel of the game.Right now the town screen is too small.At least make it full screen.

Thanks again for being so talkative and responsive in the forums,and the feedback that people give you.

Yeah, agreed. The city idea is fantastic.

Going forward, what else can we expect from Sorcerer King?

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One more thing.Devs in heroes 7 said they didn't go full 3d in town screens because of the budget(mainly)and the work load that was required.But their 2d screens are great and i think that they fit perfectly with your art style.As for the future,i think that balancing and adding carefully more spells,items,more skills,races,more sk is the way to go.As for synergies that was mentioned above it was a basic element of the master of magic success.It wasn't balanced but it was great and really enjoyable.Give us more ways to play with a certain sovereign and hero combo more than once.Your core game is almost ready and its a very fun game.Keep up the good work guys

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Alstein

Join Date 07/2004

+55

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 1

This is really good feedback. I've made a few tweaks based on it.

Outposts and resources can't be destroyed so the SK doesn't bother attacking them.

The choices you make in quests affect the choices available to you during the final confrontation as well as what random events you will get during the game. They also affect which units the SK has access to.

I agree with you regarding the early game units. I'll have to put some thought on how best to address that. I don't think I can do much for 1.0 but I think units going up levels should unlock special abilities and such for them in a future update. Thus, that level 10 soldier is way better than a level 1 paladin.

The rivals have been balanced heavily in recent days. In the next update, you should notice a dramatic improvement.

Agreed on the special abilities- you really do need something like that, but will still prefer the paladin. Maybe some way to upgrade units instead- though that would be hard with the current system as this isn't LH.

Very few units compete with cavalary right now in general.

Snipers are good, but their init is a bit too low

Sentinels are good but slower and don't have charge to clear crap units out of the way

To be, it's a no-brainer decision to make as much cavalry as possible, then fill out the slots with whatever else you have. Certain heroes are also objectively much better than others.

I'll take whatever remnant I can find, but remnant troops are for garrison duty for the most part. Maybe during the final SK confrontation, there should be a chance of remnant heroes taking part at high levels, or for remnant heroes at lower levels to be attached to lieutenants.

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The_Biz

Join Date 11/2009

for a game like this game to work, i basically want to enjoy trying to play optimally/strategically (without exploits) instead of trying to play badly on purpose (i.e. building something that isn't a paladin) to make things more "fun". like if i want to use archers, they basically do 0 damage unless i lower the difficulty

as long as variety in tactics is encouraged through the game balance, i think it can work. the stuff about making units/cities more interesting sounds like a step in that direction.

Outposts and resources can't be destroyed so the SK doesn't bother attacking them.

my concern is that it's way too easy to grab land without having to escort a pioneer or defend those holdings

like i can literally take all the territory with 0 units (until i run into a chokepoint) because cloud-walking pioneers to the frontlines and pushing outposts forward cannot be stopped

i'd be able to claim the best city locations (if that ever becomes important), without actually having to fight anything along the way.

the only thing i can't grab without an army is resources that have monster lairs on an adjacent tile. but all the stuff that's 2 tiles away becomes my territory very easily

something like that might work. it is kind of redundant to use the same vanilla abilities every single battle with every single paladin against every single enemy. keep in mind though that a new paladin will gain levels faster than a veteran soldier so after 10 battles (or whatever the number is) they'll only be a couple levels apart.

i think the #1 thing missing from the game is a reason to use different units/spells, or at least diversify the army and battles a bit

figuring out how to balance a party is where most of the strategy comes from in some RPGs or tactical games. i'm not saying I expect exactly that in a strategy game, but the game gives me 0 reason to not fill my army with whatever the strongest unit is (paladins).

most strategy games have some kind of balancing to encourage mixed armies. a lot of that comes with counterplay and rock-paper-scissors combat, but relying on the AI to counter whatever tactic i'm using seems unrealistic for this game.

if that happens, it would fix some of the issues with equipment as well since it wouldn't be as boring to spam 10 identical upgrades across 20 identical paladins. maybe with different types of units there would be a reason to use different types of equipment.

also i'm almost never using any variety of spells in battle because taking up an action is too precious

maybe if the weaker spells (usually buff/debuff) cost more mana but didn't take up a turn for some of the mage-type units, then both the spells and the mages would be useful

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