abob101

Join Date 11/2010

+49

henchmen vs sion, help clarify?

Hi all,

Ok so possibly showing my ignorance here (I tend to use neither of these units much currently), but can someone help clarify what the differences are between the Henchmen and the Sion?

So far I know that:

- they both get perks on level up

- neither divide experience like true champions

- Henchmen can use items but Sions can't (I think)

- Henchmen have access to spells (if designed that way) but Sions don't (I think)

- Henchmen only available to Altar bloodline, Sions available to all Empire allegiance

- Henchmen have faction blood trait but Sion do not (they get 4 empty slots for traits)

- Henchmen, if they die, are resurrected with a negative trait, just like heroes. Sions, however, are just dead and gone.

What have I missed?

So.. Seems to me that Henchmen are just as good as a Sion (if not better?), but the Sion costs way more to produce (300 turns, 100 Influence, 100 Gildar vs 200 turns and 40 Influence)... what gives I don't get why Sions cost so much more?

Thanks.

Edited to update the list as new stuff was pointed out / discovered.

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The big difference:

Henchmen is only available to ALTAR.
Sion's are only available to EMPIRE factions, one is kind of a "bonus unit" given to the empire side of things, the other is a Racial Ability, meaning the racial ability should be better.

That said, I do think its a good idea to lower the cost of sions

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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abob101

Join Date 11/2010

+49

Yeah seems the costs for the 2 units are really out of whack. A couple of other things I have now noticed after mucking about with them both a bit:

- Henchmen have access to the Spell and Army unit design traits that the Sions do not (again making henchmen essentially better)

- Sions don't have a blood trait at all (which I think is actually kinda weird, I guess this could arguably be something they have over Henchmen)

I think one of the problems, or at least the reason I don't use Sions much is because they get unlocked so late that by that stage I can't be bothered with a level 1 solo guy running around trying not to get killed by all the nasty units that are now common in enemy armies.

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I think there is one very significant difference you didn't mention, too. Henchmen, if they die, are resurrected with a negative trait, just like heroes. Sions, however, are just dead and gone.

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abob101

Join Date 11/2010

+49

@Ben - heck yeah that's a good one thanks, added it to the list.

Wow, thats a big one in favour of Henchmen. Really Sions pale in comparison. I think that kinda sucks... because I tend to think that if you are playing a Altar Empire you have access to both units.... and it would be nice if there was some reason to go for a Sion in preference to a Henchmen in some cases. At the moment I can't see any reason why you'd want to do that.

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Unless it changed without me noticing, Henchmen can get real magic abilities by using the books that grant Air/Fire/Earth/Water Magic I, available in loot, in the Pariden shop (assuming Pariden researched the requisite technology), or to custom factions with the proper trait. If Sions truly cannot use items, then this is another advantage Henchmen have over Sions. Thus, the real difference between Henchmen and Sions is that Henchmen are champions you can build to order, while Sions are at best the 'super' version of trained troops but are lacking in quantity.

Henchmen are also available earlier in the tech tree (I think), only requiring Heroes - which is a tech you'll probably pick up anyways to recruit the mid-level champions. I don't remember what Sions require, but I'm almost positive it's further up in the tech tree than Heroes is.

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BernieTime

Join Date 10/2009

+10

The only time I really use Sions are on maps with few or no Champions. The Permadeth to Sions (compared to Henchmen) is really offputting considering the time and investment getting them into play.

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I want to underline, I think Sions should be worse than Henchmen, since Henchmen is similar to Yithril's Juggernauts, its a unit special to one faction, its the centric power of this one faction to make this one faction special and interesting.
That said, I do agree Sions lack a something, and are probably overcosted.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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abob101

Join Date 11/2010

+49

Yep fair enough Kongdej.

The general consensus seems to be that Sions are a bit lacking / not worthwhile / overpriced. The reason i'm interested in this is because i've been looking at modding in some additional "Sion-like" units that get perks when they level up. I'm just finding it a bit tricky to come up with a balance that makes them not as flexible as henchmen but more useful / less expensive than Sions.

I am looking at going for something pretty much the same as Sions, but:

- cheaper (given Sions seem to be overpriced)

- restricted abilities (so maybe have a "Rogue" unit that can only access General or Assassin abilities)

- tied to a faction trait (so maybe the Guile faction trait or whatever it's called unlocks the Rogue unit)

- available earlier (in terms of the tech tree) than Sions

I'm wondering if they should get the Henchmen style resurrection or just permadeath though. If anyone has any thoughts on this would be happy to hear them.

Cheers.

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Quoting abob101,

reply 9

I'm wondering if they should get the Henchmen style resurrection or just permadeath though. If anyone has any thoughts on this would be happy to hear them.

I would say permadeath... but thats me .
also, are they using equipment or not?... Hm meaby you should put this in a separate thread?

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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abob101

Join Date 11/2010

+49

Yeah I have some ideas now, including permadeath. Will post something in the modding forum later.

Cheers.

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Here is my fix to the Sion problem

Elder Sion

Dropbox link : https://www.dropbox.com/s/5hx7ozk4n1f2lxo/ElderSion.rar

Now they are worth researching atleast for me and the old Sion are still there.

Edit : and should be Stormworld compatible.

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abob101

Join Date 11/2010

+49

@timides - Ah, from your Lady Umbers Legacy mod, that's a neat mod.

Actually i've just been checking it out that mod again, I see you have Urxen Witch's in there now... they are actually a fairly similar concept to what I was looking at modding in... i'm just trawling through it now to see what you've done, nice!

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