NanakoAC

Join Date 10/2012

Throwing knives should be stronger

Everyone has probably seen throwing knives. They're technically an acessory which is found frequently in treasure, and can be bought quite cheaply from your shop after some early tech.

They give a short-ranged attack (3 tiles) which has a cooldown. In theory this should provide an interesting tactical option, for example allowing advancing melee units to throw one before entering the fray. In practise however, they're pretty useless

I don't think i've ever seen a thrown knife hit for more than 5 damage, and even that's rare. Their damage output is insignificant, making them not really worth an acessory slot, and sometimes hurting more than they help. For an advancing melee unit, anytime you can throw a knife at someone, that target is also capable of walking over and hitting you in the face. The latter hurts a lot more, so tactically it rarely makes sense to throw a knife, rather than defending to reduce the incoming damage.

I think to remedy the problem, they should simply be more powerful. Maybe 2-3x their current damage, would help them become a useful battlefield option. Other possibilities could include giving them armour penetration, or perhaps reducing the target's initiative for a turn

Thoughts?

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NaytchSG

Join Date 03/2006

+19

I agree about the reduction in initiative... or they slow the enemy advance like the Hobble skill for 1-2 turns? They duck for a turn behind their shields and then peek over them to check for more missiles? (to give a rationale for the ability)...

I would rather they confer a negative trait on the opposing unit than more damage, but if you do scale it with group size that would be OK.

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Eh. They are just tiny knives, it makes sense that they do less damage than almost everything else. And like the OP says, they're pretty cheap. You can also win them after a lot of fights with bandits. Just consider them an early-game option to help finish off or weaken stuff like Darklings or the weaker animal types. Also you can throw them without risking a counter-attack if you position your units correctly, since the knives harmlessly pass through any defenders you have in front of them.

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Humility

Join Date 09/2007

Well, I got killed by throwing knives, but again I wasn't wear armor and it's was mage with no mana, and using war staff..Personaly, I think it fine as now....they should be small damage, shouldn't hurt on one who wear armor....

there is many bandit throw at me, I'm playing solo with no army, they do kill me that, but that once time..

beside, what about early armor, or early spear, should they buff too? I think not.. throwing knives is fine as now..

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NaytchSG

Join Date 03/2006

+19

Could a knife throwing unit move one more space after using the throw knife ability? You could move forward to land a blow or retire behind a defending unit? Sorta like the axe throwing pre-melee attack thing from MOM?

A lot of the weapons and the warfare techs need to be adjusted, IMO. I would like basic types of all weapons to be available from the start and increase in quality and unlock new unit traits as you go further up the warfare tree.

All units wielding one-handed weapons should get one counter-attack per round if you unlock company drills for example.

Further up, swordsmen gain 2 counterattacks at the war college level.

Cavalry should have the chance to 'rout' an enemy unit (halve it) if they attack from more than one square away, but spearmen would be immune to this.

More tactical choices would make things more fun/surprising. Right now, I either play with a defensive race with one-handed spears or I go for Athican swords because all other weapons seem useless w/o counterattack.

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Humility

Join Date 09/2007

humm, I don't recall sword get 2 counterattack at war college level, it's only gave you one counterattack unless you playing athe (red faction with those wine drinking flag) do had that sword gave you 2 but normal race, don't get those....

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The throwing knives when added to troops, should work like other attacks and be multiplied by the troop number. Right now, 7 guys with knives do the same damage as one.

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NaytchSG

Join Date 03/2006

+19

Quoting Humility,

reply 6

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was suggesting a change to the current mechanic where I can run up and whack low-init militia and other AI troops for free (no counterattacks) and change it to where all one-handed weps get one counterattack default and swordsmen can be a two counterattack per round ability unlocked in the tech tree.

I enjoy the game, but if the tactical combat can be spiced up a bit, it would be awesome.

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Assassin champs can do more damage with it would be fun.

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Quoting Lord Xia,

reply 7

The throwing knives when added to troops, should work like other attacks and be multiplied by the troop number. Right now, 7 guys with knives do the same damage as one.

This is the only thing I see in this thread that I agree with. Having the throwing knife as a secondary attack for when you can't reach the enemy this turn but can approach close enough to throw a knife at them, or as a finishing attack on a unit that's just outside your movement range (or behind another enemy unit) is fine, and that's about what it acts as right now. It also works as an initial attack against enemies that you wouldn't normally get first strike against (say, ogres, when you're using relatively basic melee infantry rather than any sort of cavalry or very high initiative footsoldiers). It's also useful if you've moved your forces to where you want them to sit on the map, and are awaiting the enemy forces, since some of the tactical battle maps have chokepoints that you could use to keep enemies from advancing on support troops or to minimize the number of enemies that can attack you at any given moment.

I also don't want the damage increased (especially not by a factor of two or three), since that would make bandits far more difficult to deal with, yet bandits are intended to be something you go hunting early on to gain your first few levels. Multiplying the current damage of throwing knives by three would mean that a low level sovereign or champion would nearly be killed by a single throwing knife, which would mean that bandit hunting essentially disappears as an early (or potentially even midgame) source of experience for your sovereign and champions, since bandits will frequently manage to throw a knife at your champions/sovereign/troops before you can close to melee range with them.

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Totally agree with joeball also I have to admit Hawawaa's got a point saying knives should deal more damage if equipped by an assassin (from a trait or just automatically)

No hard feeling Nanako but I think you completly misunderstand how to use knives or what they are made for: they are free damage. Not a TON of free damage, just a tiny bit of free damage you get when walking up to charge distance of an enemy.

"But why walking up in charge distance of an enemy?" To hit him? Yup! and meanwhile you're running up and throwing knives at the enemy, you've got someone tanking the enemy units. And guess who's going to be able to act anyway before the enemy has initiative again? The knife thrower! Here you go

Also I have seen knives deal 6 damage several times. I actually quite like them on champs without abillities, especially defenders & mages (with abilities on cooldown) as well as on "Horatio" I think or whatever this level 6 merc you get sometimes.

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The problem with throwing knives is what I've been saying since EWOM days, but nobody at Stardock will listen. Their range is off by 1. It should be 4 and not 3. Here's why. In their current form, you have to get close enough to throw them that your opponent can melee attack you the next round. That is messed up. The point of the knives should be 1 little free attack before your opponent gets in melee attack range.

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The thing with these knives is that there is a fix we need so that each unit in the attack gets one throw. There was some hope of a fix after release, but maybe we need to popularize the issue. It is needed for a dozen other things too.

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NaytchSG

Join Date 03/2006

+19

Quoting Trojasmic,

reply 12

Simpler than my extra post throw move idea, thanks, Trojasmic!

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Quoting Lord Xia,

reply 7

The throwing knives when added to troops, should work like other attacks and be multiplied by the troop number. Right now, 7 guys with knives do the same damage as one.

This needs to be fixed first off. If I pay 5 sets of knifes for my trained units I want that DMG.

Then what I want is there to be tiers of throwing weapons. Daggers, Knifes, Axes, Pilums. I'd love for you to be able to take throwing spears or something as a primary weapon which can be used for melee, but also gives the throw ability. That way you get the best of both worlds at the cost of 1 weapon. *tightassing*

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Quoting Schweiz,

reply 15

Quoting Lord Xia, reply 7The throwing knives when added to troops, should work like other attacks and be multiplied by the troop number. Right now, 7 guys with knives do the same damage as one.

This needs to be fixed first off. If I pay 5 sets of knifes for my trained units I want that DMG.

Then what I want is there to be tiers of throwing weapons. Daggers, Knifes, Axes, Pilums. I'd love for you to be able to take throwing spears or something as a primary weapon which can be used for melee, but also gives the throw ability. That way you get the best of both worlds at the cost of 1 weapon. *tightassing*

This does indeed need to be fixed. Improving this feature by adding other throwing weapons can add a lot interesting tactical options against targets with low defence.

Paying a load of iron and labour to give all 5 troops a weapon that has a 3 turn cooldown and does 1 damage (but only against weak targets) is not a viable troop design option. And to add salt to the wound it increases the unit maintenace

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Ah just as I was about to log out and get some sleep I had an idea why improving the throwing weapons could be a useful game enhancement.

It stemmed from re reading this post in the limiting bow range thread:

Quoting Mubunu,

reply 11

Units throwing knives are primarily melee units, so they'll anyway rush forward to attack you in close combat. Doing so they get into range for throwing knives.

Enhanced throwing weapons could be useful as the AI becomes more intelligent. When the AI feels like its on the ropes, as it does sometimes currently, running away low HP units. It could begin its flee tactic, preferably sooner when its on the losing side of the battle or it is outnumbered in general, and try and wear your units down with its throwing weapons. Especially when they being to use units designed by the player, that might be high initiative as well, allowing them to get some free shots in at your military. Think of throwing spears, with their armour piercing pulling a clutch snipe on a key unit... Ergh...

I get annoyed when the AI sneaks damage in via throwing knifes on bandits (or my custom horsemen unit...), anything that riles me up in tactical battles would be a nice change. Could you imagine if the battle lasted to their second volley and they sniped off your weakened units who were cowering safely, ensured of their EXP and a nice little rest period. I'd be mad.

(This is different to archers as archers are typically easy to focus down on, and they have a hefty initiative penalty.)

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