Phaleos

Join Date 11/2012

New player's point of view on the game so far, could use some input.

Hi,

Just recently started playing this game and so far its a blast, the game shows much potential, the fact that the ppl from stardock read and respond to their customers is a fresh relief as well and shows they are commited.

I've been playing strategy games for the last 15 years so i have a decent insight in these sort of games i think.

After 30 or so hours playing im starting to feel comfortable in the game and i am trying to understand all the game designs.

Some things in the gameplay annoy me beyond belief though and im not sure its my own fault or is the game designed this way.

Hopefull some more advanced players can give some insight in these matters.

I'm playing e/r now on epic tech speed on biggest random map with 11 AI's. (started with 8 but using the extra factions/heroes ive made aswell)

1) Wars:

Ive noticed now playing the e/r game that i was the one to get declared war on first and within 5 turns i had 7 other AI's declare war on me... (all but the one i had a trade + economic treaty with)

Meeting new AI's made it worse because they would declare aswell after a few turns.

I tried to bribe a AI but the gold costs where all 1000+ so they all dogpiled me...

Yet with all of them im getting a negative -2 (or is it -3) for my military actions and when speaking to AI's they all call me a warmongerer???

This is without taking a single city and just defending my own land.

In the other games if you decide to be the first to declare you get the same affect because you have attacked a kingdom / empire, and the strong powerhouses of your same allegiance declare on you anyhow because they smell blood.

Getting peace is near impossible, they all ask gold in the thousands!!! to get a peace treaty, even after a long war that they are losing they very often still keep asking 250-800 gold.

To make it worse a peace treaty is no safeguard, in the 4th game i had a AI surprise me from a side and i bought peace with him (300 gold) just to have him attack me 1 turn later anyway...

Shouldn't there be a auto number of turns that you cant attack if you signed peace?

Same goes for the non-agressive pact, i think its buggy cause in multiple occasions i've had it cancel 1 or 2 turns after signing it and i couldnt reassign it and i could declare war on them.

2) Research:

This part is frustrating to say the least, it seems that whenever im trading away technology points to a single AI immediatly all the other AI's have it aswel (or at least i can't trade it to them and its blacked out)

Same goes for buying technology points from a AI that noone has and there is no way to make use of that because you cant trade / sell it to other AI's.

Because of this its near impossible to keep up in techs at e/r that im currently playing.

Offcourse the human has huge advantage to the normal system but there are plenty of penalty's you can add to make it harder and still more enjoyable then this system.

In my last game i focused reseach rather heavy, got room for 5 city's and got 3 conclave's (first 3) for mass research, all had inspiration on them and i rushed all the sci buildings the moment i unlocked them so i was getting techs rather fast (considering its epic offcourse)

Yet when im looking at the trade screen ALL the AI's are at least 200-400 tech points ahead (even those with 1 or 2 city's) and if we would sign a science treaty i would get double to x6 of what they would get.

Is this because this game isnt designed for epic tech speed? Because this really kills the fun for me, normal tech goes far to fast and i want to think and plan when taking a tech route, for the AI's however it doesnt seem to matter , they still get shitloads of techs rapidly.

On the other hand, once you'r ahead you can abuse research easily, AI's will gladly pay 1200 points if you declare on a AI's with no army and 1 city...

Once you sign peace you can do it all over again with other AI's, offcourse this is mega abusive but it seems like the only way to catch up in techs atm.

Conclusion:

Games for me seem to get a standard trend going, rush pioneers and settle till the room is up, either you declare and world war begins or they declare and you get dogpiled.

If you survive the onslaught (and this usually works well because the AI still needs some work in battle's and tactics and often sends his hero's alone or in a pack of hero's and you can fend them off and take their city's and get peace, you can start getting back in the tech pace by abusing the war for 1200 points shit or forever be left behind.

Thx for reading and if possible giving some pointers, perhaps i can change my playstyle or some settings to make the game more enjoyable for myself.

PS: Is there any info to be found on all the things you can get when leveling up your hero / champ?

Right now ive only used path of the mage / warrior.

Hopefully you could understand my english, it isnt my native language.

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3... things you need to know:

1. Peace through strength. The AI only respects strength. If you want peace, you have to appear stronger. If you are weak, you become an opportunity target, and that will get you dec. Any other factor that you see are just modifiers to strength. Treaties are meaningless and won't last long if you don't have/get strength real quick.

2. Research trading is done that way on purpose so that you don't cheese the system by buying and reselling techs. You can trade tech points, which goes to research, both side loses those points, and they can't be traded to anyone else. To get more points, you have to do more research.

3. The AI gets bonuses on higher difficulty levels, this affects both their economies and strength ratings. On those higher difficulties, you need VERY specific strategies in order to win.

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I feel the same way you do. I expected kingdom vs empire to have a greater effect. As it is, the AI just ruthlessly culls the weak.

The end result; unless the player gains the upper hand early, there is no way to limit the battle fronts or selectively engage in conflicts.

Other players will have advice on how to manage the AI but shouldn't there be more than one way to play (e.g. zerg, turtle, boomer, etc.)

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Not to insult the devs but it reminds me a lot of Civ 5 AI. That sort of psychopath warmonger style of AI. I guess that would be in character for Magnar, and the Trogs. But they all do it. I just find it a bit ridiculous when I just meet a new AI because of a Caravan or something on the other side of the map, and they immediately decide it's in their interest to declare war. They don't even know me. And how is it smart to try to conquer someone so far off you couldn't defend anything you took. I think they need to make the faction allegiance, and distance modifiers to relationship count more. As it is you can't really find time for questing or exploring wildlands since once you know a couple AI's you will be spending the rest of the game from that point onwards always fighting a war with someone.

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In order to gain the respect of the ai, you do need to show some military strength.

Here is a bit of advice on picking up some quick military.

Shard binding. If you want a magical faction, every shard you find will offer you a free unit. Aditionally, when you upgrade your shards, you get a stronger unit. Over the course of the game, each shard offers you a lesser, normal and greater unit.

Beast Taming - this ability can be used to harvest wild animals into your army. With time, the wild animals becoming stronger and can gain special abilities (most have at least one special ability). Depending on your game settings and luck this can be quite abusive. If you leave the lairs alone they will eventually restock - giving you more troops - and they cost you no wages.

henchmen - more hero units, on demand! This one can take time to set up but can give you an unstoppable ending to the game.

Additionally, you should build some basic military units to garrison your settlements, don't depend on the city militia. They are a speed bump, but they can help - somewhat. you will need to train some units to defend your towns.

Don't spend all your time making buildings, they dont add to your faction power.

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Quoting ,

quoting post

In the 5 games ive played so far its always the same, once 1 faction declares war, all hell breaks lose and within 25 turns every faction is at war with at least 50% of the other AI's. I even had 1 game where 6 of the 8 AI's where at war with EVERYONE!

Ive noticed now playing the e/r game that i was the one to get declared war on first and within 5 turns i had 7 other AI's declare war on me... (all but the one i had a trade + economic treaty with)

Meeting new AI's made it worse because they would declare aswell after a few turns.

I tried to bribe a AI but the gold costs where all 1000+ so they all dogpiled me...

Yet with all of them im getting a negative -2 (or is it -3) for my military actions and when speaking to AI's they all call me a warmongerer???

Diplomacy is a mess. This has been commented upon quite a bit. The AI only looks at the quantity of troops another player has, so plenty of cheap cannon fodder it regards as a strong military presence. Treaties are regularly violated, and a non-aggression pact also means you and the AI can move freely through one another's lands. If you attack one kingdom/empire, the others always join in attacking you, so that there's no nuance. The AI will bribe you to attack another player, and then attack you in turn after you do as they say, because you attacked that other player. (And no, this isn't the AI being shrewd. It's just full of holes at the moment.) Other examples are often discussed. Those will do. But it's early days yet in the published game, and we have hopes that Stardock will turn out something comparable to GalCiv II.

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Didn't realise I lost research points when I traded them lol, not doing that anymore.

The AI does seem to war a lot against each other. Heck in this last game Resoln is running around with their sov and some pioneers, they are at 6 strength, which means I don't think they have a city lol. I am considering declaring war and killing their sov just to find out.

I have only had the AI declare war when they were quite a bit stronger than me, theoretically. Instead of dealing with their heroes doing kamikazee runs to destroy my clay mines and whatnot, I just cast the spell of making. We were the two most powerful factions, and he was kingdom and me Empire so that worked out.

In my most recent game, I guess I got a huge corner of the map to myself and special locations because I have freely expanded to 12-14 cities and about 10 outposts with no wars or anything. The next most powerful empire is right to the north of me, but I am far ahead.

In every game I've played so far, I have been ahead in research. When I beeline for them, such as in this most recent game, I get every world achievement building.

I am playing on challenging with the AI set to challenging.

I don't understand henchmen, I don't think I know how to make them.

Here is a pro tip from some other player, make monks. Monk Staff, Monk Robes, with the dodge traits = monsters. Build them in a fortress city properly expanded. I know everyone says to make your high essence towns conclaves, but make at least one with 3 essences spots a fortress. You can rip off some monster troops. Stick them on wargs and it is sick.

Here is my pro tip, don't sit your troops in the city and leave them there, send them out with your hero (tireless march helps a lot because you can get 3 moves then) and kills some mobs, see your fresh meat troops get much more powerful. They may roll off the assembly line with 33 hp, but after a few fights it might be 54 or more.

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The tech points are there to be traded, not collected, so there's no reason NOT to trade them. If you don't, you're just losing out on things you can get from your research.

Yes, sometimes you'll get very nice starts, that's the nature of random maps. Also, the Challenging AI is fairly easy for a competent player.

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Quoting Kalin,

reply 1

3... things you need to know:

1. Peace through strength. The AI only respects strength. If you want peace, you have to appear stronger. If you are weak, you become an opportunity target, and that will get you dec. Any other factor that you see are just modifiers to strength. Treaties are meaningless and won't last long if you don't have/get strength real quick.

2. Research trading is done that way on purpose so that you don't cheese the system by buying and reselling techs. You can trade tech points, which goes to research, both side loses those points, and they can't be traded to anyone else. To get more points, you have to do more research.

3. The AI gets bonuses on higher difficulty levels, this affects both their economies and strength ratings. On those higher difficulties, you need VERY specific strategies in order to win.

Thanks for the reply, I feared a answer like this though..

1+3)If all that matters is your power rating then games at the higher levels are gonna be very silimar every game, perhaps i can try to play with less opponents and smaller map on the higher difficulity's to reduce the dogpile.

2) Are you sure it works like this? I dont understand how factions with a sixth of my research can be way more advanced then I am if we both lose the points after 1 trade and the others civs get nothing.

Quoting klaxton499,

reply 2

I feel the same way you do. I expected kingdom vs empire to have a greater effect. As it is, the AI just ruthlessly culls the weak.

The end result; unless the player gains the upper hand early, there is no way to limit the battle fronts or selectively engage in conflicts.

Other players will have advice on how to manage the AI but shouldn't there be more than one way to play (e.g. zerg, turtle, boomer, etc.)

Quoting Sifer2,

reply 3

There is a screen in the Ledger that shows exactly why the AI doesn't like you and decided to declare war. Basically it seems the weaker your are, and the closer you are they more they hate you. Being peaceful, and being a part of the same faction as them makes them like you. Though in my experience it wont be enough. They will all eventually war on you unless you pay them off. Which annoyed me since I wanted to actually make use of Alliance tech. But you really can't as even the others on your faction will attack you the moment they think they have a chance in hell of beating you. The way faction rankings are calculated are really weird to me too. It's like cities don't matter or something. Cause I had like twice as many cities as any other AI but their power would be considered still close to mine. And it said they disliked me cause my army was weak even though it has like level 9 Spearmen with upgraded gear, and I steamrolled any AI army that dares challenge me. Maybe quantity counts more than quality.

Not to insult the devs but it reminds me a lot of Civ 5 AI. That sort of psychopath warmonger style of AI. I guess that would be in character for Magnar, and the Trogs. But they all do it. I just find it a bit ridiculous when I just meet a new AI because of a Caravan or something on the other side of the map, and they immediately decide it's in their interest to declare war. They don't even know me. And how is it smart to try to conquer someone so far off you couldn't defend anything you took. I think they need to make the faction allegiance, and distance modifiers to relationship count more. As it is you can't really find time for questing or exploring wildlands since once you know a couple AI's you will be spending the rest of the game from that point onwards always fighting a war with someone.

Sadly enough I only see 1 option and thats less opponents for now(or at least thats what im gonna try) lets hope SD or modders can do some work that is more suited for our taste of strategy and diplomacy so we can experience the full quantity and randomness of the game instead of just 1 dimension.

The screen where you can see all the positives and negatives doesnt make much sense to me honestly, as mentioned in my first post why do i get a -3 for my military actions when im just defending my lands, half the negatives is from AI psycho's aswell and they even admit it!

In Civ5 there are quite some mods nowadays that made the AI a lot less agressive and smarter in its diplomacy and choosing when to attack, im sure some great modders will step up here aswell in time (or already have, i havent checked the mods section)

Quoting Glowing_Ember,

reply 5

In order to gain the respect of the ai, you do need to show some military strength.

Here is a bit of advice on picking up some quick military.

Shard binding. If you want a magical faction, every shard you find will offer you a free unit. Aditionally, when you upgrade your shards, you get a stronger unit. Over the course of the game, each shard offers you a lesser, normal and greater unit.

Beast Taming - this ability can be used to harvest wild animals into your army. With time, the wild animals becoming stronger and can gain special abilities (most have at least one special ability). Depending on your game settings and luck this can be quite abusive. If you leave the lairs alone they will eventually restock - giving you more troops - and they cost you no wages.

henchmen - more hero units, on demand! This one can take time to set up but can give you an unstoppable ending to the game.

Additionally, you should build some basic military units to garrison your settlements, don't depend on the city militia. They are a speed bump, but they can help - somewhat. you will need to train some units to defend your towns.

Don't spend all your time making buildings, they dont add to your faction power.

Thanks, I havent tried sovereigns with those ability's yet.

Sadly building regular troops doesnt add much to power it seems, last game i had like 7 1h spearman with all the armor from the first tech when i got dogpiled, and i was in the middle of the power rate list, didnt think i needed more at that point.

PS: Does influence help at all? Or is it a waste to take that as reward in some quests?

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Regarding #2 again: That's how it should work as I understand it, not to say that there isn't any possibility for bugs in the system. If you're playing against a high difficulty AI, that AI gets a high economic multiplier, this would allow them to research much faster, and should account for some of the discrepancy.

Influence is just another modifier if you are nearing their strength, it's not super important diplomatically. It's mainly used to recruit monsters from camps and henchmens for Altar.

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I really agree with the Original Poster, on pretty much everything. Yes, the issues he points out are a pain.

That said, I believe that they are both due to bugs, or at least unpolished code, not design decisions.

The diplomacy is crazy right now, but has been changing with every release, so I am pretty sure that Brad is working on it. It has gotten better. I believe it will get better yet. Right now, power ratings count for too much, and AIs are too eager to go to war against the weaker player. They should go to war against the most threatening one. This means that they still should dog-pile on anyone attacking their friends, but they should not do so against a weaker victim, at least not without taking other things in consideration (i.e. it's A-OK for a Empire to join against a Kingdom and try to take some of the spoils for itself.

As for research, I think there are bugs. It was one of my findings in the 'great AI experiment', but it only had a 'average' confidence rating, and the developers (rightfully) ignored it. I'll look into it some more, and if I get convinced that AI is getting too much research credit, I'll get on my soapbox again.

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To be clear, you do not lose research when you trade it away.

What you have are units for trading knowledge between players. Instead of trading a specific tech for another specific from another player, what you are trading are special technology units.

Every time you unlock a tech through researchm you gain a few trading units. Civ tech gives you civ trading units, military tech gives you military trading units, magic research gives you magic trading units.

You can trade these units of knowledge for other players trading points or for other types of resources. These are a limited resource. When you recieve them you immediate plonk them into a random branch of the appropritiate tech type that is available to you. so if you receive military tech units, you wont put any random points into wargs unless you already have horses unlocked.

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Quoting Kalin,

reply 1

My (still limited) experience is that declarations of war are more like "intent to commit suicide". Two games in a row I've been attacked for no reason by underpowered factions. Apparently the AI respected my strength so much that they wanted to give me all their cities. Seriously: they only think you've achieved parity when you're marching on their final city. I don't know what the equation is, but it appears to off by a magnitude or more--in some circumstances, at least.

Meaningless treaties means pointless diplomacy, IMO. Yes, it's not entirely pointless, but schizophrenic AIs are both unsatisfying and end up just reducing game options. If every game is a conquest game, then the scope of strategic possibilities are severely limited.

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