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Gauntlet03
Gauntlet03
Join Date 01/2004
+139

Catapults Are Great

November 13, 2012 10:36:12 AM from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Thought I'd open the discussion on Catapults a bit. There were quite buggy for a long time so I generally stayed away from them. I've recently been playing with them and finding that 3-5 of them with some support melee, I can win almost any battle with the AI.

 

Enemy ranged units tend to target my weakly armored archers, but I've found them incapable of really hurting the Catapult, the Catapult's fire power isn't diminished by injuries, so I don't bother with Archers, the Catapults tank the damage of enemy archers, and I just obliterate enemy infantry approaching.

Enemy cavalry could prove problematic, but I very rarely see the AI whip out cavalry.

 

My thinking is that we need to up the AI's understanding of enemy catapults and purposely spread their troops out more. Might want to consider adjusting the starting location logic a bit to ensure they are not in perfectly clumped ranks.

 

Thoughts?

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Gauntlet03
Lord Xia
Join Date 03/2006
+148
Reply #1 November 13, 2012 10:54:32 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

You know, I have yet to really use catapults, I should give them a try.

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Gauntlet03
Grizzyloins
Join Date 09/2010
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Reply #2 November 13, 2012 11:05:15 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

they work great as city defense, militia = fodder "But sir, won't we hit our own troops as well?  Why yes we will, but WE have reinforcements"

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Gauntlet03
stein220
Join Date 12/2008
+13
Reply #3 November 13, 2012 12:34:40 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums


yeah, they're great AoE.

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Gauntlet03
athelasloraiel
Join Date 12/2011
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Reply #4 November 13, 2012 12:37:35 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

hmm, how do I get them?

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Gauntlet03
rvgr
Join Date 10/2012
+6
Reply #5 November 13, 2012 12:40:06 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

This does highlight one problem with FE: by the time the high level techs like catapults become available, the game is usually over. All those fancy end of line techs usually appear too late to make much of a difference.

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Gauntlet03
stein220
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #6 November 13, 2012 12:52:48 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting athelasloraiel,
reply 5
hmm, how do I get them?

They're unlocked as part of the siege weapons tech in the warfare tree.  Once you've researched them, you just "train" them like normal troops.

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Gauntlet03
Kalin
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #7 November 13, 2012 12:57:35 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Catas from a strike garrison... devastating. Of course by the time you get to catas, chances are, the game will already be determined.

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Gauntlet03
Viperswhip
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #8 November 13, 2012 1:27:08 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Umm, I haven't built one, so let's start with that. I have fought no less than 5 of the enemies though and I dodge every single attack they ever did, against my homemade archers. Granted, I build my archers with dodge, but there were probably 12-15 attacks in all and they didn't hit once.

Are you sure they are better than an arcane archer built with the best longbow, with ice and fire necklaces, a ice ring, and built in a fully enchanted heart of fire fortress? I think not. 

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Gauntlet03
Bobchillingworth
Join Date 03/2011
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Reply #9 November 13, 2012 1:47:55 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

Quoting Viperswhip,
reply 9

Are you sure they are better than an arcane archer built with the best longbow, with ice and fire necklaces, a ice ring, and built in a fully enchanted heart of fire fortress?  

 

 

Considering that they're a heck of a lot less expensive, can hit several more targets per turn, and still have better defense... yes? 

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Gauntlet03
Rhettrongun
Join Date 06/2008
0
Reply #10 November 13, 2012 1:57:03 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting rvgr,
reply 6
This does highlight one problem with FE: by the time the high level techs like catapults become available, the game is usually over. All those fancy end of line techs usually appear too late to make much of a difference.

Sounds like you should do what I did and start playing all games with "fast" setting for pacing. It's part of the game setup, and I have found it largely fixes this problem. I was even interested in selecting a "fastest" setting, but unfortunately it doesn't exist. 

Are you sure they are better than an arcane archer built with the best longbow, with ice and fire necklaces, a ice ring, and built in a fully enchanted heart of fire fortress? I think not. 

The other problem with that is it costs a lot of crystal to make those arcane archers. Catapults cost zero crystal IIRC, and crystal is valuable late game if you want to make super units like a doom hammer wielding brigade of knights in champion armor with all the bells and whistles.

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Gauntlet03
Tuidjy
Join Date 08/2010
+80
Reply #11 November 13, 2012 2:19:17 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Viperswhip,
reply 9
Are you sure they are better than an arcane archer built with the best longbow, with ice and fire necklaces, a ice ring, and built in a fully enchanted heart of fire fortress? I think not. 

They serve a different purpose, and take different resources to built.  So instead of either/or, just field both.  Not that the AI is likely to field anything worth this kind of firepower.

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Gauntlet03
Gauntlet03
Join Date 01/2004
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Reply #12 November 13, 2012 2:38:13 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting rvgr,
reply 6
This does highlight one problem with FE: by the time the high level techs like catapults become available, the game is usually over. All those fancy end of line techs usually appear too late to make much of a difference.

 

This is what I've noticed, and I think the bigger mod projects out this all recognize and work to fix as well. We have a very linear timeline/tech tree right now. For giggles I raced straight to catapults and now I'm destroying most of the world with wood-thrown rocks.

 OH and personally I don't think 'Fast' settings fix it.

Maybe we could get a Ballista Unit as a crappy version of siege warfare and then late game lead into the catapult.

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Gauntlet03
seanw3
Join Date 12/2007
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Reply #13 November 13, 2012 2:40:59 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I wish the catapult sieging ability was modable. I could do an entire siege metagame there. Without that I plan to move on to mixing magic with catapults. Fire attacks, ice attacks, poison gas bombs, flash bombs, etc... Pretty much anything my Thief can do I want to add to catapults.

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Gauntlet03
Gauntlet03
Join Date 01/2004
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Reply #14 November 13, 2012 5:41:02 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Could you do catapults that move strategically but can't move tactically? Might be a small thing to use in building a siege meta. Perhaps make their default damage be fire or some such so we can meta around a resistance?

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Gauntlet03
Kalin
Join Date 03/2006
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Reply #15 November 13, 2012 5:46:52 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

It should be easy to do a spell that auto reduce cata moves to 0 at the start of battle.

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Gauntlet03
ProteusJN
Join Date 08/2007
+1
Reply #16 November 13, 2012 9:52:25 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Gauntlet03,
reply 13

Maybe we could get a Ballista Unit as a crappy version of siege warfare and then late game lead into the catapult.

 

I could even think of a three tier upgrade path for siege weapons:

Ballistae

Catapults

Trebuchets

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Gauntlet03
BabbyLuring
Join Date 10/2012
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Reply #17 November 14, 2012 1:17:51 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Grizzyloins,
reply 2
they work great as city defense, militia = fodder "But sir, won't we hit our own troops as well?  Why yes we will, but WE have reinforcements"

I believe the quote goes "But sir, won't we hit our own troops as well?" "Why yes, but we'll hit their's as well". If we are thinking about the same movie that is

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Gauntlet03
NanakoAC
Join Date 10/2012
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Reply #18 November 14, 2012 2:21:17 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

catapults don't really fit. they're too lategame, and by the time they exist they don't really have much of a niche. Earlier catapults are needed

 

On a related note, the strike garrison is stupid and needs to be removed from the game. i'd rather not consider any ranged unit's merits based on using that or not.

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Gauntlet03
Schweiz
Join Date 10/2012
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Reply #19 November 14, 2012 4:25:47 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting rvgr,
reply 6
This does highlight one problem with FE: by the time the high level techs like catapults become available, the game is usually over. All those fancy end of line techs usually appear too late to make much of a difference.

Nah, usually you're used to having your army move at 4 moves/turn. Stay home Catapults, gotta go fast. I've always wanted to make a walking army of knights backed by catapults... but once you go cavalry... It's so hard to stop... Gilden maybe?

They poop on massed up light armoured units though. 2 catapults on defense can instantly turn the battle in your favor, you don't even need tactics.

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