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Yeah, both could work Kongdej. Remove the limit on summons, and improve the higher end summons (need more of those, too) - but also increase their casting cost/upkeep. Then you can choose between several cheap summons or one good one for the same cost, depending on the situation.

I want to see epic 100+ mana/10+ upkeep summons on the scale of other strategic spells, balanced against the existing ~30 mana/1 upkeep weak and expendable ones. The only way we can have the epic summons without making the weaker ones obsolete is if you can get multiple weaker ones.

While I certainly agree that the summoning field of magic is lacking I would be careful as to asking for the summoning restriction to be gone completly.

While it would certainly help for the early game and give more appeal to the magic tech tree(in terms of mana upkeep techs), it would completly break the balance of powers later in the game (mid to late game):

Being able of summoning 3/4 fire elemental level 4 early could certainly help. But being able to spam entire armies of level 9 or 10 fire elemental would be totally game breaking imo.

As of now, as soon as your mage(s) hits some comfortable levels (let's say 10-12) you can definilty spare a point into the summoning trait to have a beefy summon by your side or to send where you need it to be. One fire or earth elemental ranging from level 8-10 can wreck havoc in any army with their spells, cloak, AoE spells and such...

Implementing multiple summons for one given mage could be fun but I think one of the only way to balance it though would be to increase the mana upkeep in accordance with the level of the summons. You would be able to summon 3-4 summons (lvl 1-4) for 1 mana upkeep, but then you would have to spend more as they level up.

That's kinda the point, though. High level, well equipped melee champions are game breaking. Damage spells fueled by plenty of shards and a high level mage are game breaking. Fully tech'ed up, spared-no-expense trained units from a maxed out fortress are game breaking. Summons are not, and won't be even if you can spam 9 of them. I'm all for balance, and this suggestion would only improve it - summons are so far behind the curve right now it'd take more than this for them to break the game balance.

I also made all of icons for all summons I've done so far. It is actually playable by human player, and I might post it as a small mod if anyone is interested in.

Have you tried a Beastlord Sov with a hoarder Spider, 2 harridan and some corpse? Oh, and a great wolf to enrage them...

I'd like to try a summoner Sov now, so please, give us the mini-mod.

I find summon ice elemental the most useful summon in the vanilla game. It's instant unlike the earth/fire summons, it can tank a tough enemy like a dragon for a turn (which can potentially 1 hit champions otherwise), plus inflicting slow on high level enemies is really useful. 

I'd say getting rid of the extra turns needed to cast earth/fire summon tactically would make sense. Just make them cost more mana to cast. 

I'd agree there.

And as far as strategic summons, maybe have each successive cast cost one more mana. I.E., to have one ice elemental would cost 1 mana/turn. To have 2 ice elementals would cost 1 + 2=3 mana/turn, 6 mana/turn for 3, etc.

Does it?  Shit, I guess I would have to take summoning 1 to ever find out, and I doubt I ever had.

Definately agree that the concept of summoning NEEDS a revisit. Being able to summon multiple copies of creatures would be an excellant start. Being able to summon more variety would be awesome as well.

However, I caution that summoning can't become too powerful that troops are again ignored. The fact that summoning doesn't require use of the city queue in itself is a HUGE benefit. If you had the ability to create an army through those means, troop production would cease.

I'm also not suggesting that summoning be too weak...else no one will persue it (as is in it's current state). IMO, the should be a Path of the Summoner, or perhaps a Sub-path to that of the mage for summoning so that mages can create solid summoned units if specialized to do so that are comparable to trained units. (maybe weaker summoned units if no training.....average with some training....and above average if specialized)

To add to the idea, the ability to summon SHOULD be just that: The ability to summon. The rest of the concept SHOULD be just as how the Binding spiders are treated. Have the ability to queue the summoned creature in your city training and have it cost mana + production instead of metal or crystal. The summoning duration can be shorter than normal troops since it's costing mana, which is valuable.

Combat summoning could and should still be instant casting since the creature disappears after combat ends....but permanent summoning seems like it should take a longer duration to materalize the creature, since you're getting the unit for a potentially indefinate period of time.

(besides, in MoM, summoned units all took time to build too).

The same should go for Knights of Asok, Wildings, Ogre mounds, etc etc. Rather than having incremental spawning times for these unit types, obtaining these sites should simply grant the closest city the ability to train these units in your queue. (Maybe give the first one for free at the site when obtained as an incentive and to show the player what the unit can do.....obviously, something would have to be done here so that a player does not raze, and rebuild the site for multiple free units). This ultimately gives the player the control as to whether or not those units are worth persuing. (those wildings need some kind of buff...maybe include a shaman).

Thoughts? Comments?

I miss the summoning game from MoM, where my entire empire would focus mana generation (instead of gold and troops) and then I would just spew out armies of hellhounds, skeleton raiders, zombies, basilisks, you name it.

Hmmm... (Fires up MoM)

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

I hate the idea of putting those useless things on the building que.  No way no how.  They moved them away from there because they were never used.  The way that those resources work now is fantastic.  Sure, they have a few hiccups with merc and knight upkeep and some are fairly uselss, but at least they don't take resources or que space.  going back to that would be a headache.