If I ever get around to moding(I've been putting it off for months because of work), I want to try and make a spell that lets me summon the friggin Devil, beat him to an inch of his life, and make him my servant.

Unless of course Stardock does it first. I won't mind. Hopefully after this spell contest ends, there would be a lot more spells in the game. A tone more, useful ones, like Cracks Call

i can see some of the reasoning in this post, but right now i really think that the magic system is currently on the right track. this is largely an issue of spell selection.

the issue for me is more about the long term effects of endlessly accumulating mana. we've gone from a situation where having as many enchants and summons as you liked had little to no consequences, to a situation where you can only physically have a few of these without shutting mana gen to a trickle. if mana endlessly accumulates then every single spell cast has long term consequences. to be competetive in the mid to late game you should have spent the early game aquiring a massive mana stockpile. using enchants and summons in the long term can prevent this entirely. what's more if you go on a massive mana spending spree at any time, you will put yourself at a disadvantage to the rest of the game. in the next war you will always be however many points you spent behind your competitors. we've created a situation where players never use their mana because they're saving it all for a rainy day.

the immediate solution would be faster generation across the board, and a separate stat that determines the maximum amount of mana you can stockpile. but imho this is a crude solution. it works best to my mind if you regenerate mana along a non linear formula like this:

where x is turns and y is mana. the equation is mana = max mana x (1 - e ^ (- game constant x turn number))

this way mana regenerates at a decreasing rate until it reaches your max mana. the higher your max mana, the faster the generation. you increase the max mana with every shard you own, for some unique buildings. every summons or enchant reduces it slightly. this has a lot of advantages over linear regeneration (ie, +5 regen for shard, -2 for a summon) in that it's impossible to give the player negative or static regen if they summon too much. you can be a lot more finely graded since you're dealing with bigger numbers and set it up so there is a lot less of a difference between a mana maint of 1 and 2. and in the mid game you can have 10 summons (so long as you're fine with a small mana pool that regens slowly). it also favours people who actually use the stuff because users get faster regen, rather than stockpiling mana (though that is still a good idea to an extent). finally it governs both the size and the pool and it's regen in a single stat. you can modify the game constant with the "game speed" set-up option too.

would be nice, although at the moment the system seems to be moving away from the elements; at least half the spells i seem to be learning/casting seem to be non elemental. so what do you do then? have a separate generic pool? take equally from all the pools? you still have the problem of endless accumulation even with separate pools; unlike with gold or other resources, with mana you are very rarely "spending money to make money," so endless accumulation means you are always best saving if there is any other way.

I won't say it sucks but given the aforementioned sov description I have to wonder why this "resist" persists for minion peons v. a kick ass sov. I must confess that I am feeling like Black Knight feels about the teleport issue. I keep harping on it (like my wife harps on me for playing the game & when I'm not I'm on the forums ) I can grasp the resist in theory but at a certain point the unit has to take SOME damage---very rarely the case in my experience.

Which presents a quandary for me---my magic use thus far has been more passive/defensive with the bulk of my offense coming from melee units because I am running into a one step up above a peasant unit that can resist offensive spells/dragon breath/arrows/catapults---why spend the mana for a fire spell that has no effect? I'd like a more clear-cut choice in the manner in which I kill. In an encounter with an Obsidian Golem---I saw immune. I get that--not a problem--but a guard unit??? idk..just venting.

Anyone else frustrated by this?

[quote]I'm just glad magical resist is there, even if it is flawed and needs more appropriate use and better balancing.

Good point--I'll buy that. I'm sure it will balance out. As it is, I just use different tactics to get around it.

I'm leaning in that direction---I don't think I've played enough to decide though I am not using magic anywhere near as much as I did in the previous version--at least in the offensive sense.

Didn't read all the replies but I do agree with the OP, even though he could have done without the capitalized, bold lines at the bottom.

It would be nice to start seeing some big changes / additions to the magic system.  It would be great to be able to become a powerful Wizard, able to conjure up massive, powerful creatures and amazing spells that instill fear in your enemies.

I'm hoping to see something of the sort in the future.  That, and a good AI, would be a big step in the right direction.

First off i have to say that the tone of the OP is seriously out of order. Don't do that, the devs are trying their best to listen to us and improve E:WOM so that it becomes what it should be.

That being said though I have to agree with the OP on the fact that magic is taking a backseat in this game, and it shouldn't.

This is elemental: war of magic. Not civ stuck in the medieval period, which, to be honest, is how it plays right now.

It's fun, but it doesn't live up to its name and it just doesn't compare to MoM. yet...

/rant on

The main gripe i have with magic right now though is that I feel that I just can't have a sov that's completely focused on magic instead of combat.

I want to play an all powerful caster that's thrown out all pretence of the art of the sword in favor of more power and understanding through wielding the full force of the elements against his foes. And i just can't do that, low level magic is horribly under powered and you get forced into using conventional weaponry just to compete..

/rant off

To fix this i make two suggestions:

-Make low-level magic competitive with low-level weaponry in damage throughput

-Give mid-level magic more oomph, as the OP said fire and brimstone should be child's play by the end game. By the end game (if we focused on magic) we should have the power to turn entire armies to dust and scar the world itself.

Oh and let us cast heal outside of combat.. seriously.

*spellchecked*

That's not a rant at all. It's a reasonably-put version of a not uncommon critique of the game so far. The tone of the OP might be less than constructive, but the title of this thread is a rock solid statement of the game's core weakness, at least for the part of the audience who took the "magic" part of the game's title seriously.

Somehow, they still won't break down and design the basic metaphysical framework for the game. Instead, we're getting stunningly mundane 'improvements' like a Mobility spell book. That reeks as much as the gamiest hunter returning from a week in woods with no water for bathing. I'm convinced that the reason there's still no set of viable paths to magical supremacy is because the magic system is being thought of only in terms of the visual effects and raw combat mechanics, when it needs to be thought of as a set of fundamental rules about how the world of Elemental works. Whether "integrated physics" is a co-equal set of rules or whether magic is indeed the more important rule set is a debate we've been unable to have because the magic is still not really magical. Especially for those of us who have little or no interest in the 3D views of the game.

Now that was a rant

That's true, I think the design philosophy would help by establishing some 'rules of magic' for the fiction.

If anyone remembers the TV Series Gargoyles, my favorite set of rules is:

-Energy is energy, whether be it from Magic or Science

-Every Spell has a counter and reverse

-(Not really a rule of magic) Iron is lethal and binding to the Fae folk

Stuff like that. Elemental might benefit from a Chinese Style/Avatar The Last Airbender style 'elements' guide

-Fire is damaging and fast, with direct damage spells that pose a risk for the user to use

-Air is quick and defensive. Spells like blink go here, and some of the better overland travel spells

-Water is healing and flexible. Water spells have multiple uses when cast on different targets. (Heal/Buff on friends, Damage/Curse enemies)

-Earth is strong but immobile. These spells manipulate terrain. Direct damage spells take longer to cast, buffs cause targets to be slower or immobile.

Other stuff

-Death is principally damage over time, and enchantments that raise cheap undead minions. Death is a great 'reversal' tree, in that the more a loser loses, the more powerful his magic gets.

You get the idea.

Maybe magic has global effects, such as those who are exposed to it the most are affected the most (or least). Maybe demons/summons are vulnerable to weapons made of iron (read, require steel). Except, that is, for earth summons.  

Riding this, Intelligence and Charisma should have combat effects. Maybe Charisma gives a combat buff to troops, and Intelligence a bonus to overland move. Or maybe Charima lends to offense, Intelligence defense. Something that makes non-spellcasters with these traits more valuable in the field.

I have a few problems with this post I suppose, i'm not an expert on game design nor do I know the answer to everything...

I understand the dislike of tedium in these games to alot of players, while you may not enjoy giving your people a +1 enchantment to food production to me it makes me feel like an apocalyptic leader. What you call "mechanics" are all part of running your empire-People need to eat and with your magic you can infuse these plants and crops to go faster.

Just as well another flaw I see is the fact that you want us to basically throw nukes at eachother every turn or summon giant goliaths of world crushing doom and have epic ass battles with solar flares and spirit bombs. You're a new channeler-you just discovered you can manipulate magic. I imagine this takes quite some time to master---However I do agree that Elemental really needs to shape up with their graphics. A firestorm in my eyes is not an opaque curtain of fire, but wrather a shimmering inferno of anger!

I've yet to try the new patch yet (In exams) however the changes look lovely.



Long Story Short, I don't want this game to become all power play but at the same time I want to be able to work up to and earn those epic spells and enchantments.

I'm glad im not playing the beta, I'd just be pissed, but I am not.  I am remaining hopeful that SD Devs and Kael will come through.  They had better be listening to all this great *AHEM* FREE feedback (from those of you playing and commenting) on their beta and get it right for 1.1 or its the last money I'll have spent on a SD product. 

I recall in MOM while you were a character, your character did not take form in the "gameboard" itself, you sent forth your minions to do your deeds and you supported their efforts when needed or desired via magic.

I recall in AOW that you had a in game mobile character that was for all intents kept in a tower as it really hamstring your domain and power to not be.

We do not need a Sov to be going around rambo-ing the game world in a spiritual successor to MOM.