Sethai

Join Date 12/2005

+23

a new approach to magic

so we're getting global mana and that's great. to my mind this principle is a good one for the idea that sacrificing essence means less individual magical power in exchange for greater flexibility in having casters all over the map. however, some fundamental problems with spells and shards remain:

1 there is little incentive to learn spells because your basic lightning bolt scales up so well with int and shard numbers. other than maybe getting chain lightning as well, you don't really need much else.

2 you feel compelled to get all the spell books at level 1 because you don't know where your shards are going to spawn (especially important for the ai)

3 at the same time you don't really need all the books because they can all do the same things, so long as you're lucky with shards. most of the utility spells are independent of the elemental books anyway

4 high level spells are unwieldy because of high mana costs and low constant regeneration

my solution is this: instead of having the spellbooks divided by element, divide them by purpose. ie, no book of water, but instead a book of lesser destruction, book of greater enchanting etc. each of these books contains spells of different elements. ideally, all spells should be linked to elements so that all of them can be improved by shards. books can be chosen to suit your playing style instead of your shards, and ai sovs can be given books that suit their personalities, instead of getting them all for fear of gimping them in game.

this way, regardless of if you have just the book of lesser summoning, or all 5 starting books, you still get a benefit from getting a water shard or fire shard, but the more books you have, the more benefit you will get.

think about it: once you get beyond the starting books, this is the way the game works already. the problem is that the game is confused over whether or not to split spells by element or by purpose. this just makes more sense. currently we have summoning spells in both the elemental books and in the summoning books. this way it is clear exactly what to research if you want a certain kind of spell, and getting a shard is always useful, and not a gamble to match your spellbook.

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magic research

currently, most people would agree that there is far more to gain in researching tech than in researching magic. the solution is to merge the sorcery tech branch into magic research, so you don't get anything magical out of mundane research. this is just so obvious.

so tech research becomes

civics, warfare, adventure & diplomacy

and magic research becomes

buildings (shard control, tower of sorcery etc), items (enchanting) offensive magic (destruction and summoning spell books) and subtle magic (enchanting, imbuing, utility and hindering magic)

each breakthrough in one of the two latter magic research categories gets you a new spellbook (if you started with more, you get a headstart). owning a spellbook = knowing a spell. you have to spend longer getting them, but you get more spells at the same time. this way you can't just target the spells whose shards you control. so you have to research the books of lesser, mediocre and greater destruction before you can cast chain lightning, and you have to compete against previously mundane technologies for your arcane research points, so getting the spells you want becomes moredifficult. hopefully though, it will also be more rewarding.........

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magic casting

currently, the power of magic is linked almost entirely to attributes and shards instead of the spells themselves. instead of "i now have 18 int, so my fireball doe 10% more damage," the game should work on the principle "i now have 18 int so i can now cast rain-of-flaming-suns-from-hell."

so, tie one attribute to the maximum power of spells that the caster can cast (this stops newly imbued characters casting like archmagi)

tie another attribute to slightly increasing the effectiveness of spells. this attribute should be increasable throug items (because currently there are no items in the shop useful to casters, that i have found)

tie shards to REDUCING THE MANA COST of spells of that element. this makes shards beneficial for all kinds of spells rather than just offense and offsets the limited pool of mana in the later game.

well?

elemental

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I think these are very good ideas. Another poster suggested additional effects based on {fire, water/ice, etc} type of spell. Combine these two posts and the magic system would be better.

I would make the shards have multiple benefits though. Not only should they contribute to the mana pool, they should be required for some higher level spells and higher damage spells and also other effects. See this post: https://forums.elementalgame.com/390240

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I would say though that spells with more utility would be good. Instead of 20 different spells that all do damage in 3 different ways, mix up what spells and special abilities do.

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Quoting sagittary,

reply 2

Scaling spells is a good thing; it eliminates the issue where in the late game, you have a bunch of ineffective spells you never use or early game research where you just ignore the lesser spells and start researching the high level ones.

I would say though that spells with more utility would be good. Instead of 20 different spells that all do damage in 3 different ways, mix up what spells and special abilities do.

personally i'd rather have new cool looking spells to research than just scaling up the same old animations and resting on my laurels, but i see your point; that's why i'd keep a little bit of scaling with attributes. ideally there is room for both new spells and scaling of lower level spells. d&d is great at getting this compromise right; magic missile and mirror image are great all through the game, but you still have a desire to get to level 9 and power word kill.

and in a game like elemental, there will always be a roll for less powerful spells that cost less mana, because you'll want to conserve mana for bigger spells in bigger fights.

and yes, Tim4Fun, i'd do exactly that as well (additional affects beside damage varying with elements). i thought about putting that in the OP, but decided against it for brevity.

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i like scaling, alot. i especially like infinite scaling, where there is no end. as long as the scaling is balanced, and i am sure thats a hard thing to accomplish.

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Quoting Stmorpheus,

reply 4

i like scaling, alot. i especially like infinite scaling, where there is no end. as long as the scaling is balanced, and i am sure thats a hard thing to accomplish.

well, one could argue that the current system is a million miles away from being balanced and that should not be considered an obstacle to a radical overhaul. especially if you believe the principals behing the new system are better.

is it so wrong to want to be excited about getting new spells?

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Quoting Sethai,

reply 3

Quoting sagittary, reply 2Scaling spells is a good thing; it eliminates the issue where in the late game, you have a bunch of ineffective spells you never use or early game research where you just ignore the lesser spells and start researching the high level ones.

I would say though that spells with more utility would be good. Instead of 20 different spells that all do damage in 3 different ways, mix up what spells and special abilities do.

personally i'd rather have new cool looking spells to research than just scaling up the same old animations and resting on my laurels, but i see your point; that's why i'd keep a little bit of scaling with attributes. ideally there is room for both new spells and scaling of lower level spells. d&d is great at getting this compromise right; magic missile and mirror image are great all through the game, but you still have a desire to get to level 9 and power word kill.

and in a game like elemental, there will always be a roll for less powerful spells that cost less mana, because you'll want to conserve mana for bigger spells in bigger fights.

and yes, Tim4Fun, i'd do exactly that as well (additional affects beside damage varying with elements). i thought about putting that in the OP, but decided against it for brevity.

What I mean more is that new spells should introduce new stuff and abilities rather than rehashing the same thing. I'm sure we both agree that going from say... Fire Bolt to Fire Ball to Fire Column isn't really 'cool new spells' territory; they're basically just "do more damage than before". The spells aren't really any different or special or unique; just more pretty graphics which is only part of why we like spells (we also want to do cool things). Instead, say we got... Fire Serpent which prevents a unit from moving by summoning a fiery serpent to coil around them.

High level spells wouldn't necessarily be more powerful, just more specific in application and requiring more skill to use successfully.

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Love this thread. Great ideas here, hope the devs notice.

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Quoting sagittary,

reply 6

if it were up to me there would be a bit of both. i understand the fear entirely though; no one like their previous research made redundant. so long as an older spell remains cheaper to cast then it will always have a use when mana conservation is an issue. i think d&d strikes the right balance between new functions and replacement, so that is imo the best place to learn from.

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Quoting ,

quoting post

Surely changing from elements to purpose detracts away from one of the focuses of the game?

I'm inclined to go a different direction:

1) Spells need to be kept thematic along traditional "elemental spell" lines (e.g. earth "slow", air "haste") - have every level of each book have 2 spells, a 'damage' and a non-damage. Each damaging spell thematicly linked - possibly one is good at single target high damage, one of many targets med damage (fireball), one giving low damage but slows movement, and one that gives low damage but stuns for a round, death magic that lowes morale, life magic that turns them to your side etc. Then the non-damaging ones can be haste, slow, "teleport ally/enemy to anywhere on battlefield", etc. Four types of magic with four different strategies of combat style.
Much of this already happens, but there is plenty of duplication as well which makes each school less 'special'.

2) Specialised magic access - e.g. when your hero found that they can channel, it was most likely in just 1 or 2 ways. Thus, all pregens should just have life/death and access to ONE element. If you want more than than for create-a-soverign, you are pretty much not going to have a talent. Thus, e.g. what do you want, 3 schools of magic, or 2 schools and meditative/wealthy, etc?

This would also mean some enforced choices - what kind of magic, and what kind of style of play?

3) Replace (or supplement) the bonus gold mine with a single shard of a random sort that the player can use. In game, surely the character found they could channel once they were close to a shard? It would also mean that a fire specialist's fire spells would likely be more powerful than the water specialists fire magic, etc. Maybe reconsider dispersal of other shards throughout the world?

4) Spells can be scaled balanced in a number of ways - range, area of effect, duration, etc and there is some of this, but I'd support doing it a whole lot more to really differentiate each type of magic. And have spells intereact with weapons - air spells give range to missiles, fire to their damage, etc.

5) Add (more) healing to water spells - the reverse of the stereotypical high damage fire spells. And of course healing can scale - heal 1 a small amount at close level, then level 2 gains power, 3 low-power range, 4 AOE, 5 high-power range, 6 ranged AOE, or such. Or maybe some "temporary HP" spells for the unhurt - maybe these could alternate with the healing spells? (Water can still have it's ice-damagers, but maybe this is just not a school focus!)

Maybe earth can make temporary ramparts or walls of stone that you have to go around? Fire's "wall of fire" dont block you, but they hurt to walk through. Air's Wall of Air dont block or cause harm, but no missle weapon can get through. E.g. make each school truly different.

As has been mentioned games like D&D give a wealth of ideas.

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Also, past research need not be redundant.

Fire 1 - causes INT*(shard +1) damage to target

Fire 2 - causes 2*INT(shard +1) damage to target and INT*(shard +1) damage to all targets 1 square

Fire 3 - causes 3*INT(shard +1) damage to 1 target,

In a combat, there would different times when you'd use each spell, particularly if mana cost were balanced.

Fighting a lone bandit, Fire 1 might be enough

Fighting a group of spiders, Fire 2 would be more useful

Fighting a sovereign, throw everything.

Even once you have fire 3, 4, 5, etc - there will still be uses for the lower ones. This is particularly the case with low mana regeneration.

THUS

Scaling is not just damage, but other effects as well.

But also a non-damaging spell scaling too (healing above is one), but scaling in range, AOE, etc can be ways of specializing your sovereign (and all casters linked to them via imbueing essence).

This has been discussed with Teleport - but all non-damaging spells can be scaled in many, many ways- "raise close land 1 place" can become "raise distant land 1 place" or "raise close land 2 places" or "raise a crosshair of land 1 place" or the more minor "raise land for only X turns" (temporary blocking enemy), and then these different pathways can be combined for a very high level spell (raise a crosshair of land across the continent by 2 places), etc.

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I am going to have to agree spells should follow their elements.

If you look at the spheres of magic in Age of Wonders(just one game of many I chose!), you will see they adopt that stance.

Life and Water had heals. Life had direct healing, Water had AoE heals, slightly less powerful than direct heals.

Air gave you such things as air elementals, lightning spells, things one would presume you would get for choosing a book based on Air!

When I play Elemental, and I choose the book of 'Fire' at the start, I want to know ahead of time I am choosing a path based on the destructive element of fire! I want to see things burn and explode! I want to see buffs that add the fire element or burning to my attack. Spells that make my archers shoot flaming arrows, that ignite what they hit for damage over time! I want to be able to summon Hellhounds, Fire Giants and Elementals that have properties consistent with their elements. Eg, Fire elementals being immune to fire damage and having a high damage burning, fiery melee attack, balanced by them having not so great health or defense! Hellhounds having a multi target close range flame breath attack, that can set you on fire for X turns for dot! Fire Giants wielding huge flaming swords!

The current implementation of magic in Elemental seems like bloody stone ages compared to just about any 'other' fantasy 4x game ever made and then some! Makes me want to PUNCH A MUPPET IN THE FACE every time I load the game up and just know the spells are garbage before I even start to play!

Run Cookie Monster, Run!

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Definitely - except for the punching a muppet thing.

I'd be happy to volunteer to work for free to work to build a philosophy around this - I run RPGs based along elemental lines so I have thought these balanced uniqueness thoughts for many years too.

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