Lol Simsum, tile-based battles won't EVER look like that ... I didn't say you couldn't pull off a battle with that many soldiers.

Its kind of like Paradise Lost, only its Epicness lost.

Sure, you CAN get a fun system that's tile based (will it look like the pic- No), and you can even have moments that feel pretty epic. (since epic is all subjective, etc)

But no ... and, whats your business about piles of d2 rolls?? That's VERY simple ... I mean, I dunno I never tried it, but DON'T try to knock on X + 1DN vs C. // 1DN vs 1DN is Gal Civ ... armor basically comes in 2 flavors on the strategic level from that standpoint, useless, and impossible to break. (and also its ships so who cares, its not like you'll cry if your Enterprise Voyager scout gets destroyed, cause it isn't a story about the Voyager ... while in Elemental there is at least an "opportunity" to create mini stories through the process of war and exploration (unless we want to cut out any RPG elements))

In battles, there will never be an instance when "no one" is dying ... therefore a simple X + 1DN vs C to determine if there is a hit (and have a margin at upper N and lower N for always hit and always miss), and then determine damage once there is a hit (based on the weapon, and how good the hero is)

like, the only possible instance is if two heroes are duking it out ... and while they trade blows (probably misses), their armies are killing and dying all around them.

And the current "tiny box" approach to battles just doesn't cut-it for me. (if high end squads were 50-ish, maybe.)

Depends on what you mean by "look like that". What seems to be happening in the pic, are multiple melee units in formations, trying to outflank & gank a dragon, while the dragon uses an arc-shaped AoE, its superior melee reach and charming personality to kill & rout the melee units. To do that in a Dungeons and Dragons game, you need three new rules and help to keep track of the data. The three rules are: formations, unit costs and a unified morale system. And the help you need is a... computer.

Pretty much any tabletop wargame you care to mention allows the kinds of battles depicted, some far more massive ones, without the aid of a computer. Most of then aren't even tile based.

But of course, if you mean the pic looks like both sides are acting simultaneously, then you're absolutely right. No IGOUGO system can do that. WEGO systems can, however.

I'm not knocking x+ydn>c. I simply prefer a purely d2 based system when I have a machine to instantly do the dice rolls for me. Because when the number of dice you're rolling is a non-issue, a d2 system is easier/faster to compute for us humans. Think of it like SMACs GUI vs. Civ IVs. Both do pretty much the same & there's nothing wrong with either, the latter's just nicer to use.

As for the size of the battles & battlefields, they really don't do it for me either. It'd be OK if the battles worked along the lines of HoMM, but I'd much, much prefer the tactical battles to play like an actual wargame - formations, flanking morale & so on. If Elemental just did that one thing and did it right, I wouldn't be sitting here complaining right now, I'd be playing the hell out of it

I don't buy that man, not at all. Why? Because there are Way Too Many other games that pull it off just fine without a problem and that have far more detailed units than what we see in Elemental. Case in point, Total War. Pick one of the ones made since Rome. THOUSANDS of highly detailed models on screen at once with no slow down. It doesn't matter if it's turn based or real time but "high grade models" doesn't fly as an excuse in my book. It's a case of balancing in Elemental. Any computer today can run thousands of units on screen at once. If it slows down the engine then it's a bad engine, not a bad computer.

You'll see when we start working on the mechanics for the Dragonlance Mod. Frogboy said a long time ago unit count on screen was going to be moddable with just a few Xml edits back when we had the talk about them cutting down unit counts so much. A lot of us modders made it a Specific Point to Make Sure it was moddable and Frogboy told us it was. I'm sure more than just me remembers the talk I'm talking about.

I think that's reasonably doable in 2010. 

Am I wrong?

MoM is great inspiration for some of the 'Big Picture' things, but it's not acceptable for the nuts&bolts of how tactical combat should be in 2010.  We've basically got MoM tactical combat with slightly improved graphics/effects, and (currently) worse gameplay implementation.  Hopefully the gamplay implementation will get fixed in the next few months. 

If we want the epic feel of the Total War we're going to have to make that clear to froggy -- hold him to the promise that that screenshot made.

I don't think it has to be a choice between 'pretty but simple' and 'complex but plain' with today's machines.  If that choice has to be made, function > aesthetics.

Better to play good than to look good.

Best to play good and to look good.

It's about knowing the intended market.  Some gamers focus on the flashy graphics.  Is that the market-share SD wants for Elemental?  Is that the folks they expect will buy the game, and play it for years?  Who is that market-share for Elemental, and what do they prioritize?

well, as of 1.06 we had (worse) than MoM ... I'd say having tactical battles being Tile-less (yet turn based) WeGo is a fair demand. As well as squads upwards of 50 or 80 soldiers a piece.

As well as individual soldiers (within a squad) being viewed as individual objects (but gaining experience as a squad).

That would be about fair.

...

As for acceptable ... basically anything I (and other combat oriented posters) have suggested previously.

I agree with pretty much all that Nick. Not too sure about the we-go thing, but at least animated it so it looks like it. Even on a turn based system you could animate both sides of the units to have animations while they're waiting of them fighting. Say one unit attacks another and neither die. There should be an animation of them fighting each other continuously until different orders are given to them next turn. That too would give the battles a better feel when you add in more soldiers (that's just something to add to the wish list). There's a lot of little touches that it needs but I don't except it to be there for at least another year, just as it took a while for Gal Civ 2 to really mature. In the end though Gal Civ turned into what I consider to be the best space strategy game on the market. The only thing it lacks are battles.

I don't know if I can say the screen shot makes a promise. Being an ex designer I know first hand that things can change rapidly when making a game. As a customer buying a product though I can see how it would lead me to think I can do that in the game. I think if enough people did want larger unit counts it might be something they would take into account for a future patch after they get past some of the stuff their working on now. Definitely something someone should try to suggest and bring to their attention as I think a lot of people would like to see it, me included.

Forgive my unfamiliarity, but how, exactly, would a TB We-Go work in a tactical simulator? What happens if they just move the unit away from where I wanted to attack them? Do my units just auto-follow who I want to attack? In that case, how would situations like flanking work when you have no idea where an enemy unit is going to go?

If you want to see epic, deep, and organic-looking battles, stick to the Total War series, especially The Third Age mod. Let's be honest, Elemental dropped the ball on this one. Battles are clunky and unsatisfying and there's frankly no excuse for this kind of anemic display in 2010. To those who say that you couldn't satisfactorily incorporate magic and spells in TW-style battles, I say take a look at Neocore's King Arthur and weep. It's already been done, and done very well. The picture that started this thread could effortlessly be staged with the TW or King Arthur battle engines.

Hopefully, Brad will take this into account if there's ever a sequel to Elemental. I don't regret buying it. I love the strat map, the atmosphere, and look forward to modders working their magic on the code -- not to mention that I respect Stardock as a developer. But battles will always suck with the current system.

Personally I wouldn't like that game to have tactical battles like in Total War.

I would prefer turn based option as in Age of Wonders. simply map, let's say 150 x 150 hexes, with lots of bushes, trees, hedges, hills etc would do the trick. That was the best game in terms of turn based battles I ever played! I played it for years! . No idea how difficult it can be but maybe some modders could do that

i love turn based for the campaign, but completely agree with this post.

I don't think the battles "need" to be Real Time to be Epic. Turn Based battles can be just as Epic if done correctly with Massive Unit counts and Continuing Animations. If you leave two units locked in mêlée combat then the animation of those two units fighting, swinging and missing, can keep playing even though those units aren't actively taking a turn. Animations for some things should continue playing until a new order is given. This works in Turn Based games to give a better visual feeling to the battles. That's why I thought it was kinda cheesy when you've got two formations of troops and only one guy from each unit steps up to take a swing and to defend. They should ALL step into each other and every guy in the group should be swinging and raising shields to block, while the damage modifier scrolls up, have the animations continue until a new order is given to that unit. A lot of other turn based games do this, even some console games like some of Koie's games. This should have been taken into account for the battles in Elemental, but, that would have cost more to do and taken more time to do the animations. Of course if they would have had another 6 months to do it....and a Beta 5 where we got the "Almost Full Version", we could have made sure the devs took note of all this and made the adjustments as needed to give it a better "feel".

The whole battle system doesn't need to be re-done or made into real time. It can be kept as turn based, which I think is good for Strategic decisions, but still have continuous animations like a we-go or RtS type system. Increase unit counts, re-balance upkeep and drafting costs to create units, and everything would look and play a lot better IMO.

I've been lurking here since the game released and been very much on the fence about whether to purchase it, warts and all, as I've enjoyed Sins of a Solar Empire and know Stardock has/had a good reputation as a champion for their customers.

I picked up the Elemental novel last week while on vacation and have finished it.  It's a quality story... although [MILD SPOILER!] the book ends with many subplots unfinished and mysteries unrevealed.  It pretty much screams out for a sequel that I have to wonder if we'll ever see.

After (probably too many) hours of reading through threads and watching videos of the game on YouTube, it was THIS thread here that convinced me to not purchase Elemental (yet). 

I had assumed that battles scaled up as the game progressed, both in units-on-screen and in complexity of tactics, both those exhibited by the AI and required from the player to ensure victory.  From what I'm reading here, that's not currently the case.  If so, I unfortunately can't see a compelling enough reason to own the game.

I love the Total War: Rome game and would love to see a fantasy version released with that engine.  Even better would be Elemental with that combat system.  *sigh*

As a side note, a recommendation I'd make for "real time" combat is the World War 2 Close Combat games, an older series that has been acquired by Matrix Games.  They've re-polished each original release and are available for puchase/download on their site.  Not anywhere near a 4X game by any stretch of the imagination, but I mention it as an example of top-down, real time combat that isn't the frenetic pace you see in games like Starcraft2, etc. (I'm not an employee, etc. of Matrix, just a fan of the CC games, so I thought I'd mention it)

Anyway, it's too bad Elemental isn't living up to expectations/wasn't ready for release.  I'll continue to keep my eye on it and hope it evolves into the game everyone wants it to be (or that the picture at the top of this thread implies).

I guess it's time for me to finally download GalCiv2 and give that a go.

[One last comment: I'm your typical fantasy fan who enjoys settings that include men, elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. but the world of Elemental portrayed in the book with the concepts of the Fallen, the "immortal" Titans and other unique inhabitants is intriguing.  I like what Brad W. came up with for Elemental and wouldn't miss the elves, etc. as a result.  I hope to read that sequel someday!