Multiplayer - wrong priority, re-balance game first

Quoting cephalo,

Na, mulitplayer is the most efficient way to see what needs to be fixed. You can half-way fake a single player experience, but multiplayer exposes all. If they delayed multiplayer, they might be faced with having to fix the game twice, which could be kinda demoralizing for them. You can't hope to make a proper AI when the game rules are in flux.

I agree. I personally want to pin down the imbalances in the game so as to report the bugs and or problems with the game. And MP will be an efficient way to do this. I think at this point Brad and the SD team could use the help identifying these problems.

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It would be naive to believe that the majority are happy about the state of the game, simply because they aren't vocal about it.

I guess you missed the poll that showed nearly 60% are happy with the game in the state it is in. That is a majority so that makes you naive to think just because you and your little troll friends don't like the game that the majority doesn't either.

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Heavenfall

Join Date 07/2008

+441

Actually, 46% showed they were disappointed with the game when the poll closed.

It's not a majority, but it's not far from half either.

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Quoting psychoravin,

reply 52

It would be naive to believe that the majority are happy about the state of the game, simply because they aren't vocal about it.
I guess you missed the poll that showed nearly 60% are happy with the game in the state it is in. That is a majority so that makes you naive to think just because you and your little troll friends don't like the game that the majority doesn't either.

There's some very mixed messages in this thread. The same people who are saying "60% like the game, it's fine, STFU you trolls" are also saying the game needs so much work that they need to delay multiplayer even more to work on it.

So... which one is it?

(Not to mention that BoogieBac has said that 46% number is HUGE, and in the last podcast he did some guy named Brad Wardell wasn't happy with the state of the game either. Clearly they must be trolls too in the fanboy world.)

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Quoting Heavenfall,

reply 53

Actually, 46% showed they were disappointed with the game when the poll closed.

It's not a majority, but it's not far from half either.

Doesn't matter a Majority is a Majority and the Majority like this game the way it is. So you lose the Majority wins. >L)

Also one can still be happy with something and still like to see improvements. The difference is the trolls DEMAND improvements The trolls just want to troll like Tridus does in every post.

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Quoting psychoravin,

reply 55

Doesn't matter a Majority is a Majority and the Majority like this game the way it is. So you lose the Majority wins. >L)

Also one can still be happy with something and still like to see improvements. The difference is the trolls DEMAND improvements The trolls just want to troll like Tridus does in every post.

Your mistake is in thinking this is a democracy. It's not. Stardock has said there will be multiplayer, and they get the only votes that count. Thanks for playing though.

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Quoting psychoravin,

reply 52

That is a majority so that makes you naive to think just because you and your little troll friends don't like the game that the majority doesn't either.

Hardly. Since, probably the great majority of those that bought the game aren't aware of such poll, but they can read "multiplayer" on the box.

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I never saw this poll. I'd also venture that most of the people who are dissatisfied are not active on the forums so wouldn't have seen it either.

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Heavenfall

Join Date 07/2008

+441

It's the most accurate thing we have, anyway.

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Quoting falconne2,

reply 58

I never saw this poll. I'd also venture that most of the people who are dissatisfied are not active on the forums so wouldn't have seen it either.

It goes both ways. Only a fraction of people, satisfied or unsatisfied, are active on the forums. Just like everything else, you are more likely to hear unsatisfied people making their voices heard than satisfied.

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Heavenfall

Join Date 07/2008

+441

I believe there were around 1400-1500 votes in the poll when it closed (I could be wrong). A week or so earlier brad said they'd sold about 84k copies. Of course, as far as I know, even pirates could vote in the poll.

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I and others work exclusively on single player. The MP doesn't affect things too much though we do feel that given it's on the box that this needs to go up.

The challenge with MP right now is that there's a real internal loss of, well, confidence. If this were pre Elemental launch, the MP feature would have been turned on last week as planned. But now there's a fear of "what did we miss? are we going to just get blasted again?"

My priority is on the single player game and balance which is split a little bit between balancing the game as it is today and starting work on v1.1 which has a different magic system.

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I think expectations are set more realistically for MP right now, Brad. As long as people can form games, there shouldn't be much of a problem. Everybody knows what the gameplay is like, and how it's going to improve in 1.1.

So try not to worry about it. Once it's running it's one less thing to worry about.

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I think you'll get even more concise and creative input with multiplayer enabled and running. The AI is simply not robust enough at this point in time, which you are well aware of. Multiplayer will grant other levels of enjoyment for players, and you will be able to gather strategies for your AI improvements.

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Quoting Tridus,

reply 63

I think expectations are set more realistically for MP right now, Brad. As long as people can form games, there shouldn't be much of a problem. Everybody knows what the gameplay is like, and how it's going to improve in 1.1.

So try not to worry about it. Once it's running it's one less thing to worry about.

There's a considerable level of depression here across the team that is, admittedly, affecting things. I don't think most outsiders recognize the difference between an indie and a commercial developer in the sense that this game is a labor of love for us. We are, for better or worse, very attached to it. So there's a level of devastation at 1) dealing with the launch and 2) coming to the conclusion that much of the criticism is merited and that we simply didn't see it and 3) letting down our fans, friends, families, etc. It's a pretty big deal.

So with MP, there's almost a level of paralyzing fear that we're "missing something". But we are also working on the single player part as well. The problem and it's a marketing issue, is that fixes and changes to single player are tied to the next release which is supposed to include the MP being enabled. We don't really want to go much longer without having the bug fixes, tweaks, AI updates, etc. put out there for SP. Frankly, we're not really sure what the best course is at this point.

If we delay v1.08 any further to wait for MP to go through more QA, there will be a feeding frenzy in the media since we are apparently the new scum lords of the universe for having a troubled game at launch.

If we put out v1.08 and there's problems with MP there will be a feeding frenzy in the media since we are apparently the new scum lords of the universe...

If we put out v1.08 and we list the MP as "beta" you will have a feeding frenzy of people who will say "See! They knew the game wasn't done because the MP still isn't out of beta!" when the reality is that the same QA and oversight issues that affected the main game affected MP. It wasn't until I brought back my "old hands" (who had long been promoted to other parts of Stardock) to take a close look at the game and MP that I got a full understanding of some of the issues across the board.

I'm impatient to get v1.08 out there because there are so many things fixed in single player and a lot of rebalancing done. But the above issues make us all hesitant on what the best course is.

Right now, we're under so much scrutiny that every forum post I make is now potentially a news story for some website.

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Ah, yeah. That's tough. I can see the problem.

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 65

If we delay v1.08 any further to wait for MP to go through more QA, there will be a feeding frenzy in the media since we are apparently the new scum lords of the universe for having a troubled game at launch.

If we put out v1.08 and there's problems with MP there will be a feeding frenzy in the media since we are apparently the new scum lords of the universe...

If we put out v1.08 and we list the MP as "beta" you will have a feeding frenzy of people who will say "See! They knew the game wasn't done because the MP still isn't out of beta!" when the reality is that the same QA and oversight issues that affected the main game affected MP. It wasn't until I brought back my "old hands" (who had long been promoted to other parts of Stardock) to take a close look at the game and MP that I got a full understanding of some of the issues across the board.

I'm impatient to get v1.08 out there because there are so many things fixed in single player and a lot of rebalancing done. But the above issues make us all hesitant on what the best course is.

Right now, we're under so much scrutiny that every forum post I make is now potentially a news story for some website.

One way to look at it is to say that you'll get scrutiny no matter what, so there's no sense in worrying about it. What do you think is best for your customers? Do that. Yes, you got it wrong last time, but you run a successful company with a team that has put out good games. Most of the time, your instincts are going to be right.

Speaking as someone who wants MP (aka: part of the minority), if you're worried about MP not being up to snuff and it's causing delays in important fixes for the SP game, maybe the best thing to do is just to put MP off to 1.1 when there is a longer development cycle and more time to do focused testing. Then you can launch 1.1 with the new magic system, and MP that you've had extended testing on and are more confident in.

Yes, that will annoy some people who want MP now. But since every decision is going to annoy somebody, you're left with the option of simply doing what is best for the game. And 1.0.8 for SP sooner is probably the best way.

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You cannot exhibit bravery without first experiencing fear. It's simply time to face the adversity head on instead of hiding from it. And you most certainly cannot use it as an excuse. The sharks feed more when they smell fear and blood.

Man up and go after your vision.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 65

Quoting Tridus,
reply 63
I think expectations are set more realistically for MP right now, Brad. As long as people can form games, there shouldn't be much of a problem. Everybody knows what the gameplay is like, and how it's going to improve in 1.1.

So try not to worry about it. Once it's running it's one less thing to worry about.

There's a considerable level of depression here across the team that is, admittedly, affecting things. I don't think most outsiders recognize the difference between an indie and a commercial developer in the sense that this game is a labor of love for us. We are, for better or worse, very attached to it. So there's a level of devastation at 1) dealing with the launch and 2) coming to the conclusion that much of the criticism is merited and that we simply didn't see it and 3) letting down our fans, friends, families, etc. It's a pretty big deal.

So with MP, there's almost a level of paralyzing fear that we're "missing something". But we are also working on the single player part as well. The problem and it's a marketing issue, is that fixes and changes to single player are tied to the next release which is supposed to include the MP being enabled. We don't really want to go much longer without having the bug fixes, tweaks, AI updates, etc. put out there for SP. Frankly, we're not really sure what the best course is at this point.

If we delay v1.08 any further to wait for MP to go through more QA, there will be a feeding frenzy in the media since we are apparently the new scum lords of the universe for having a troubled game at launch.

If we put out v1.08 and there's problems with MP there will be a feeding frenzy in the media since we are apparently the new scum lords of the universe...

If we put out v1.08 and we list the MP as "beta" you will have a feeding frenzy of people who will say "See! They knew the game wasn't done because the MP still isn't out of beta!" when the reality is that the same QA and oversight issues that affected the main game affected MP. It wasn't until I brought back my "old hands" (who had long been promoted to other parts of Stardock) to take a close look at the game and MP that I got a full understanding of some of the issues across the board.

I'm impatient to get v1.08 out there because there are so many things fixed in single player and a lot of rebalancing done. But the above issues make us all hesitant on what the best course is.

Right now, we're under so much scrutiny that every forum post I make is now potentially a news story for some website.

Here's what you do Brad. Since you said MP would be in 1.08 just start making 1.07.xx updates and including the single player elements you have tweaked and fixed and then they can't say you didn't live up to your word. <grin> Then when you feel you are ready then you can release 1.08 and the MP element. Afterall the majority of us only care about the SP game anyways and I certainly won't hold you to what you have on the box as well I didn't buy it for the multiplayer element anyways.

You have to remember one thing above all else Brad you aren't going to make all of your fans happy at any given time no matter what you do. In other words some are just "expendable" like the movie "They were Expendable"? You should focus on the majority of your fans as if you go the wrong way again you could lose on both sides big time. The SP want you to focus on the SP game first and foremost and I think that is what you should do also regardless of the MP crowd which by poll after poll shows roughly only 2% of people who buy PC games buy them for their multiplayer element. Most always buy for the SP element. Think about it strongly before taking that next small step for man and one giant leap for the life of your company and Elemental. <grin>

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Quoting psychoravin,

reply 68

Here's what you do Brad. Since you said MP would be in 1.08 just start making 1.07.xx updates and including the single player elements you have tweaked and fixed and then they can't say you didn't live up to your word. <grin> Then when you feel you are ready then you can release 1.08 and the MP element. Afterall the majority of us only care about the SP game anyways and I certainly won't hold you to what you have on the box as well I didn't buy it for the multiplayer element anyways.

That is pretty much the best way to guarantee stories on gaming news websites. People like honesty, and don't like feeling jerked around.

If MP has to be delayed, the best way to do it is to come out and say "what we have isn't something we feel is up to snuff, we're going to do it right in 1.1." Saying "it's coming in 1.0.8" and then releasing five versions all called 1.0.7-A through E is asking for more problems.

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I won't feel jerked around. <grin> I'd be happy with 1.07xx updates myself.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 65

Quoting Tridus, reply 63I think expectations are set more realistically for MP right now, Brad. As long as people can form games, there shouldn't be much of a problem. Everybody knows what the gameplay is like, and how it's going to improve in 1.1.

So try not to worry about it. Once it's running it's one less thing to worry about.
There's a considerable level of depression here across the team that is, admittedly, affecting things. I don't think most outsiders recognize the difference between an indie and a commercial developer in the sense that this game is a labor of love for us. We are, for better or worse, very attached to it. So there's a level of devastation at 1) dealing with the launch and 2) coming to the conclusion that much of the criticism is merited and that we simply didn't see it and 3) letting down our fans, friends, families, etc. It's a pretty big deal.

So with MP, there's almost a level of paralyzing fear that we're "missing something". But we are also working on the single player part as well. The problem and it's a marketing issue, is that fixes and changes to single player are tied to the next release which is supposed to include the MP being enabled. We don't really want to go much longer without having the bug fixes, tweaks, AI updates, etc. put out there for SP. Frankly, we're not really sure what the best course is at this point.

If we delay v1.08 any further to wait for MP to go through more QA, there will be a feeding frenzy in the media since we are apparently the new scum lords of the universe for having a troubled game at launch.

If we put out v1.08 and there's problems with MP there will be a feeding frenzy in the media since we are apparently the new scum lords of the universe...

If we put out v1.08 and we list the MP as "beta" you will have a feeding frenzy of people who will say "See! They knew the game wasn't done because the MP still isn't out of beta!" when the reality is that the same QA and oversight issues that affected the main game affected MP. It wasn't until I brought back my "old hands" (who had long been promoted to other parts of Stardock) to take a close look at the game and MP that I got a full understanding of some of the issues across the board.

I'm impatient to get v1.08 out there because there are so many things fixed in single player and a lot of rebalancing done. But the above issues make us all hesitant on what the best course is.

Right now, we're under so much scrutiny that every forum post I make is now potentially a news story for some website.

At the very least you communicate with your fan base and admit your mistakes, and work to correct them. That's more than most companies would do. Tell your team they'll have another opportunity to get things right with the first expansion pack, and you can't forget that you will also be able to sell the game in some sort of package deal (base+expansion) which, by then, should be fixed up, and do much better in sales.

Programming mistakes happen, it's virtually impossible for a small team to find everything wrong with a piece of software, maybe just have a larger and longer beta testing phase in the future? Granted there are finite resources to consider, but you can never go wrong with more beta time.

Keep up the hard work

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Elemental is not an RTS where people play to compete. MP is nice to have but what is nicer is a balanced game which is fun to play. Battle system, magic, tactical combat, heroes, rase customisation, all these things suck at the moment and are mucu more important than MP.

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I wouldnt be in your shoes at the moment, frogboy. But get your head up high. Forget the launch.... Shit happens! For what i read, i believe you and your team will do the best that you can. Thats all i want and there is nothing more you can do, i would say.

Wish you success.

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I don't post very often, but I'm going to throw my opinion in here. I read the forums daily, and I've been following the game since it was in beta. I know what features were tested in beta, and how the features/systems work within the game now.

I purchased the game on release, not because I expected it to be perfect, but because of the long-lasting potential this game has. I am part of the near silent minority that wants multi-player enabled right away, because I simply want what I paid for. And, I am angry with all other forum posters that can seriously say push back this feature until single player is fixed. If I bought a car that was advertised with power locks, I wouldn't want to wait until my 10,000 mile service appointment to get that feature. That is dumb. By advocating that multi-player is pushed back, you are giving up your right as a consumer to get what you paid for, period.

We have a game. the game needs more TLC. Stardock has TLC planned for the next year or two. Don't make them lose enthusiasm for their labor of love (read: ugly duckling) by turning it into a beast of burden. I'm a software developer too, and there is nothing worse than having to work on a project that you really don't care for anymore.

I have faith in Brad and Stardock that these issues will be resolved. I do not feel like I am playing a game that is in beta. I don't feel that I am playing a game that is incomplete. I feel like I am playing a game where its potential raced ahead of the resources available to see/fully reach that potential. I see a vocal community that REALLY does not understand/comprehend what Brad and his crew have attempted to do. I feel bad for them because, in hindsight, I think they now understand how difficult it is to create a new game engine AND release a game based on a fledgling engine. As gamers we want perfection. Great, but that is an unrealistic. I think we all expected Elemental reach its full potential on day one (including Stardock). Ok, so that didn't happen. Cut them some slack, not tons, but lets move on. I'm sure features and updates are being worked on/tested at a breakneck pace.

Brad/Stardock, keep your head held high. I have confidence that EWoM will get better over time just as GalCiv 2 did!!

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