A View From the Cross » Forum Post by lulapilgrim

OK,..so this is your system. But using your system, you should have capitalized the "G" in "God of Israel" when you wrote:

No. I was making a comparison. I referred to god X as opposed to god Y without adding judgement as to which one is true or better or more real.

I always capitalize when referring to the one true God of Judaism and Christianity.

So do I. But when I say "god of Israel" , the word "god" does not refer to the true god but to any god. Only the "of Israel" makes that god the same as "G-d".

Lower-case "god of Israel" roughly corresponds to Biblical "eloheinu" ("our god", NOT "our G-d") and upper-case "G-d" roughly corresponds to the Biblical name.

I don't think it's correct to use the upper-case English version which stands for the name in conjunction with "of" anything. The name already addresses the entity in question.

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KFC posts:

The diff between me and Lula here is I believe God is NOT done with the Jews and He will turn back to them keeping his promises to Abraham and the Nation as the OT Prophets saw. Lula believes it's a done deal and Israel is history. The Jews can come to Christ as individuals (and they have) but God is now centered in Rome instead of Israel which is not a biblical concept in the least and is very very subjective on the RCC's part.

The main difference between you and I is interpretation of Scripture.

I believe God is not done with the Jews. Based on the fact that God wills all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth proves that He is not done with the Jews or anyone else for that matter. Through the merits of Christ's Passion and Death, this, right here and now, the present time is the age of God's Grace for all mankind.

Even though God rejected parts of the OLd Mosaic covenant, the Temple, its sacrifices, etc., God has not rejected His people. So yes, of course, the Jews have a future with God. St. Paul answers the question, Has God rejected His people saying,

.....God forbid. For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people, which he foreknew. Know you not what the scripture saith of Elias; how he calleth on God against Israel? 3 Lord, they have slain thy prophets, they have dug down thy altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the divine answer to him? I have left me seven thousand men, that have not bowed their knees to Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also, there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace.

So notice the answer about whether the Jews are rejected concerns the hope to restore individual salvation to as many Jews as possible and NOT TO A CORPORATE NATIONAL REVIVAL EITHER THEN OR SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE.

Read it again..the answer shows that the salvation of Israel will be just as it was in the OT. Out of a nation of millions, God tells Elias there were only 7,000 who had remained faithful. So, it's no surprise that v.5, even in this present time, there is a "remnant" of Jewish people that is far smaller than the majority.

Almighty God is fulfilling all the OT prophecies about Israel's salvation here and now as Jews from every nation to which they have been scattered are being gathered into one Body of Christ. The one Body into which the Jews from all nations are being gathered is the Church the Messianic kingdom of God present here and now, the Church age.

Salvation is from the Jews through Christ. All Jews should take what St. Peter said to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost to heart. Acts 3:19-26,

19 Be penitent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. 20 That when the times of refreshment shall come from the presence of the Lord, and he shall send him who hath been preached unto you, Jesus Christ,

21 Whom heaven indeed must receive, until the times of the restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets, from the beginning of the world. 22 For Moses said: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me: Him you shall hear according to all things whatsoever He shall speak to you. 23 And it shall be, that every soul which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 And all the prophets, from Samuel and afterwards, who have spoken, have told of these days. 25 You are the children of the prophets, and of the testament which God made to our fathers, saying to Abraham: And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 To you first God, raising up his Son, hath sent him to bless you; that every one may convert himself from his wickedness.

Verse 23 is very sobering.

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Lula, feel free to support G-d's people in any way you want.

But somehow I feel that you intend to start by demonizing their state and everything that given them hope.

NOT TO A CORPORATE NATIONAL REVIVAL EITHER THEN OR SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE.

We have already seen what happens to G-d's people without the "corporate" national revival.

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leauki posts:

And if the god of Christianity doesn't have the features of the god of Israel

KFC posts:

The Hebrew God YHWH of what we call the OT is the same God of the NT. Jesus is God in the flesh

Yes, another best answer.

leauki posts:

While I don't believe in Jesus as a "son" of G-d or even the Messiah, I do recognise the god of Israel in the god that you, KFC, tell me about here.

There are many evidences of the claim of Jesus that His is the Messias. Some of those are the OT prophecies. Have you ever seriously read them? (I'll get back to those later.) Also in the story of the preexistence of Jesus before Abraham who died a thousand years before the following question was put to Jesus by the Jews. "Thou are not yet fifty years old and hast thou seen Abraham? the answer of Jesus was, "....before Abraham came to be, I am." for which he was stoned.

The "I AM" as you must know, is God's designation of Himself to Moses. Exodus 3:14.

The story of the trial of Jesus on the charge of blashphemy is sufficient for calling Him the Messias. In answer to the question of High Priest Caiaphas, "I adjure thee in the name of the living God that you tell me whether you are the Messias (not a Messias), Son of God" to which Jesus positively answered, "I am." The reply of the High Priest was the death sentence which the Jews had a Mosaic right to impose upon a blashphemer which ended with the crucifixion of the greatest Jew to walk the sacred soil of Palestine, viz. "We have a law, and by our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God".

You and others are looking forward for the coming of the OT predicted Messias. So it follows then you must believe that He will be born of the House of David that existed in the tribe of Juda. Surely that is a vain expectancy as there is no existing House of David or tribe of Juda from which anyone can come forth. Vol V, page 597 of the Jewish Encyclopedia states that the division of Israel into "houses" and their authenticated genealogies which were scrupously kept have been lost and page 577 states 'very few Jews can trace their descent furhter back than a couple hundred years."

Right reasoning compels the conclusion that the non-existence of the House of David and tribe of Juda in which the Messias was predicted to be born evidences that God's promise of the coming Messias has been fulfilled.

The Messias came in the manner Isaias said He would be miraculously born. 7:14.

The Messias was born in the time Daniel foretold nearly five centuries befor e the Lily of Israel brought Him forth in the city of David. 9:6.

The Messias was born during the predicted time when the "sceptre" that is, the authority, the political power shall have been taken away from Israel as it was by ancient Rome. Gen. 49:10.

The Messias was to be betrayed and sold for 30 peices of silver; led like a sheep to a slaughter; suffer His hands and feet to be pierced; and thereafter to rise from the dead as foretold in Zacharais 11:12-13; Is. 53:7; Ps. 21: and Is. 11:10.

So, what this means to me is that any one who claims to be the Messias will be a false messias and no one should follow him.

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KFC posts 196

Jesus told a story (Matt 21:33) about a land owner (God) who planted a vineyard (Jerusalem). After he planted this and hedged it and dug a winepress and a tower (safety) he rented it out to men (Jews) who would care for it. Then he left to a far country (heaven). When it was time for the fruit to draw near he sent his servants (prophets) to the caretakers that he might receive the fruit of it. The caretakers beat and killed the servants. So the owner again sent more servants (more prophets) more than the first and they did likewise. He finally sent his own son (Jesus) to them saying they will revere my son. But when the caretakers saw the son they said "this is the heir" let us kill him and take his inheritance. So they killed him as well. The end of the story is that the owner would eventually come to the vineyard and the question was put to the Jews, "what will He do?" The point of the story Jesus was telling them was that the Kingdom of God would be taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles but it's a continuation from the Jewish Scriptures to the Christian NT Scriptures. The whole book is one continuous story.

First it should be noted that this parable completes the previous parable of the 2 sons which identifies the indocility of Israel. This one of the wicked caretakers (tenants) focuses on the punishment to come.

I agree with your explanation of Jesus' parable but always understood that the vineyard is Israel and the caretakers to whom God has given the care of His people are the priests, scribes and elders.

The malicious purpose of the caretakers in murdering the son and heir to keep the inheritance for themselves is the madness of the Jewish leaders in expecting to become the undisputed masters of Israel by putting Christ to death.

The point of the story Jesus was telling them was that the Kingdom of God would be taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles

Yes this is the point. It's as clear as clear can be especially when we read the last 6 verses.

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do to those husbandmen?

41 They say to him: He will bring those evil men to an evil end; and will let out his vineyard to other husbandmen, that shall render him the fruit in due season. 42 Jesus saith to them: Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? By the Lord this has been done; and it is wonderful in our eyes. 43 Therefore I say to you, that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone, shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it shall grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they knew that he spoke of them.

46 And seeking to lay hands on him, they feared the multitudes: because they held him as a prophet.

The point of the story Jesus was telling them was that the Kingdom of God would be taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles but it's a continuation from the Jewish Scriptures to the Christian NT Scriptures. The whole book is one continuous story.

Regarding the highlighted....your conclusion here is the strange and has nothing to do with the kingdom of God being turned over to the Gentiles.

What supports St.Matthew 21 is St.Peter who later repeats it to the Sanhedrin, "this is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner." Acts. 4:11; 1St.Peter 2:4.

The Stone is Jesus of Narareth, but the architects of Israel who build up and rule the people have chosen not to use it in the building. Becasue of their unfaithfulness, the Kingdom of God will be turned over to another people, the Gentiles who will give God the fruit He expects in His vineyard to yield. St.Matt. 3:8-10; Gal. 6:16.

For the building to be well built it needs to rest on stone. Woe to him who trips over it. as first Jews and later the enemies of Christ and His Church will discover through bitter experience. Is. 8:14-15.

Christians of all ages should see this parable as exhorting them to build faithfully upon Christ and make sure they do not fall into sin. Catholics are filled with hope and a sense of security becasue although the Chruch sometimes seems to be breaking up, its sound construction with Christ as its Cornerstone is assured.

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You say, The Prince of Peace (Christ) will eventually bring in physical peace? "Eventually"????

Yes I do say so because that's what scripture says. ........

We are not living in a world of Peace. Look around you. Turn on the news. Only the Prince of Peace (the Messiah for the Jews) can usher in physical peace for the whole world to enjoy. Here's a sampling

Regarding the highlighted...yes of course. We know from the time of Adamwhen sin entered the world that we humans have a fallen nature and as a result and consequence, there has not ever been a world of peace.

Christ never promised physical peace in this earthly world.

..... Only the Prince of Peace (the Messiah for the Jews) can usher in physical peace for the whole world to enjoy. Here's a sampling: "They shall build houses and inhabit them and they shall plant vineyards and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for as the days of a tree are the days of my people and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for trouble for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord and their offspring with them.....The wolf and the lamb shall feed together and the lion shall eat straw like a bull and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain says the Lord." Isa 65:21-25 "and it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one sabbath to another shall all flesh come to worship before me says the Lord." Isa 66:23 ......This is when he ushers in totally physical peace on earth. This has NOT happened

No KFC, what Isaias describes here won't be happening on earth or even in time as we know it. The Earth will have been burnt up at the end of the world and time is ended...like a thief in the night comes "the day of the Lord" ---the universal Judgment-- then eternity spent in a new state of affairs.."...the Kingdom of God, the New Jerusalem has reached its fullness. The righteous will reign with Christ glorified in body and soul in "new heavens and a new earth.

That's all quite clear in 2St.Peter 3:9-14 and note v. 14 St.Peter urges the faithful to remain in Godliness and in peace.

9 The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance. 10 But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief, in which the heavens shall pass away with great violence, and the elements shall be melted with heat, and the earth and the works which are in it, shall be burnt up.

11 Seeing then that all these things are to be dissolved, what manner of people ought you to be in holy conversation and godliness? 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of the Lord, by which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with the burning heat? 13 But we look for new heavens and a new earth according to his promises, in which justice dwelleth. 14 Wherefore, dearly beloved, waiting for these things, be diligent that you may be found before him unspotted and blameless in peace.

So, yes, this physical peace is in the future, but it's not going to be on this earth.

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KFC posts

"and the Lord shall be king over all the earth in that day shall there be one Lord and his name one...and men shall dwell in it and there shall be NO MORE UTTER DESTRUCTION; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited...and it shall come to pass that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem (not happened yet) shall even go up from year to year to worship the King the Lord of hosts and to keep the feast of tabernacles." Zech 14:9,11

This is when he ushers in totally physical peace on earth. This has NOT happened

Zacharias' prophecies encourage Jews of 6BC with the promise of the coming of Messias. The prophecy starts with that time and ends with the events of Christs' First Advent. His message is clear...The Messias will come and renew the faith of God's people. He will accomplish this all during Daniel's 70th week, the seven decades of covenantal transition from the Old to the New.

The kingdom of God was indeed successfully established in the First Coming of Christ. Zacharias 14:9, 11 and 16 have been fulfilled in some by the means of the Machabees and in others relating to the Messianic kingdom of Christ, the Church where as the greatest Jewish convert of them all St.Paul of Tarsus, infallibly teaches there is neither Jew, nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ."

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There are many evidences of the claim of Jesus that His is the Messias. Some of those are the OT prophecies. Have you ever seriously read them?

Yes, I read them. And for a while I kept quoting them to show you what Jesus hasn't fullfilled.

But there is no point in that because you dismiss anything you don't like in the Bible as having a "spiritual" meaning.

And that is not how bronze and iron age people saw it.

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leauki posts

Still waiting for world peace, the return of all Jews to Israel and the Third Temple... My Messiah will make all these things come about

lula posts:

This is according to Maimonades.

leauki posts;

Who was commenting on Biblical prophecies.

Maimonades comments indicated like many other Jews, he missed the true Messias. So that leaves me telling you that if someone comes and claims to be the Messias...watch out, he's a liar.

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Maimonades comments indicated like many other Jews, he missed the true Messias. So that leaves me telling you that if someone comes and claims to be the Messias...watch out, he's a liar.

We truly miss the true Messiah.

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leauki posts:

Still waiting for world peace, the return of all Jews to Israel and the Third Temple...

lula posts:

The Messias Christ brought peace...spiritual peace. Jewry thinks in the physical and so they entirely miss this

Spiritual X is not X.

Spiritual X is CHRIST. With Christ, everything changed. Please read St.John 15:1-7. It's very powerful.

Read the highlighted again. Even our good JU talking bud, KFC, agrees.

You see, in my religion, promises are never broken, especially not by G-d Himself.

I UNDERSTAND and AGREE. Your One Lord God is my One Lord God and He revealed Biblical Judaism which formed the basis of Christianity.

God promised salvation from the Jews. It doesn't get any better than that, but you have got to understand the spiritual sense of it all to appreciate it.

Lula posts:

There are many evidences of the claim of Jesus that His is the Messias. Some of those are the OT prophecies. Have you ever seriously read them?

Yes, I read them. And for a while I kept quoting them to show you what Jesus hasn't fullfilled.

Yes, you quoted Isaias. All of the OT prophecies have been fulfilled. Some in the time close to the prophecy, and others by Jesus, His birth, life, work, passion, death, resurrection and ascension into heaven. Some have multiple fullfillments such as Daniel's abomination of desolation.

And that is not how bronze and iron age people saw it.

I agree.

Our understanding and knowledge of God-revealed religion will continue to develop until the end of time.

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I UNDERSTAND and AGREE. Your One Lord God is my One Lord God and He revealed Biblical Judaism which formed the basis of Christianity.

God promised salvation from the Jews. It doesn't get any better than that, but you have got to understand the spiritual sense of it all to appreciate it.

G-d also promised us a land. You claim He broke that promise. I claim He wouldn't do that, ever.

Yes, you quoted Isaias. All of the OT prophecies have been fulfilled.

So where is the rebuilt Jerusalem?

Our understanding and knowledge of God-revealed religion will continue to develop until the end of time.

Yes. And that is why new religions develop.

But I'm afraid Jews are very conservative. Our view of G-d is still the same as 2500 years ago. We haven't changed.

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iNFIDEL POSTS:

How many different ways can you make one god conform to what you (that's "you" in the general sense) want him to be?

LEAUKI POSTS:

I don't know. Most bronze age tribes had a god that was basically like they wanted him to be. Or you can see it the other way around: each god helped its own tribe. Or you can look at it the monotheistic way: only one of those gods really existed and he looked after his tribe. I guess the confusing part is that so many people chose one of those bronze age gods as their own and try to make Him what He wasn't originally. And suddenly a god worshipped by small nation of shepherds in Israel becomes this anti-Semitic being that Romans speak for.

leauki posts:

You totally and absolutely don't understand how Judaism works and has always worked. It is a tribal religion. Every tribe, city or nation had its god and loyalty to one's own people was measured by loyalty to the tribal god.

Sacred Scripture and revealed (true) religion are about God and people. The development of Scripture and biblical Judaism and Christianity occurred in human history.

Man has always had a religion taught by God. Adam was taught directly. And Adam handed on to his children the truth about God and the duty of worshipping Him. Abel offered sacrifice.

The traditions and religious beliefs were transmitted by Adam's posterity, and over time songs, sagas, poetry, legends and law was added. After the remultipication of the human race fromNoe, men again began to forget God.

Conscience always dictated what was naturally right (natural law) and God gave revelations to various individuals such as the Patriarchs and this became known as the Patriarchial religion or period of pre-Mosaic unwritten law. The descendants passed down traditions and religious beliefs and teachings grom generation to generation. They were recorded during the reigns of David and Solomon. After the southern kingdom fell to the Babylonians, leaders of the Israelites began to focus more closely on the spiritual meaning of their identity as God's people.

And then God gave us Moses and with him a clearer exposition of religious duties to be put into writing. This is known as the Old Covenant religion..(what I call Biblical Judaism). After Moses, the lawgiver, God sent His prophets to explain the law and to predict the coming of the Messias.

Finally, God sent His own Son, the Christ, who filfilled these predictions and taught the perfect law of God and established the New and everlasting Covenant.

So we see here that God gave His holy religion to mankind gradually so that men could be prepared by more simple doctrines for still more noble truths. The relligion known by the Jews before Christ was therefore but imperfect, and prepatory. The religion of Christ was its perfect fulfillment and the Jews should have recognized it and accepted it. Some did,but most did not and then Christ sent His Apostles to preach it to the Gentiles. CHRIST DID NOT THEREFORE ESTABLISH ANOTHER RELIGION. Christianity is the perfect development of the seed from which it grew.

Chrsit retained all the basic laws of religion and morality contained in the progressively revealed Jewish preparation, abolishing only the particular rites and ceremonies which were purely figurative and also the imperfections of the initial religion.

The Jews were God's chosen people until the coming of Christ and they could have been among His chosen people now had they remained true to God. God did not change His attitude toward them; rather they changed their attitude to Him. They had been taught to look forward to the Redeemer. But when He came, they rejected Him becasue they wished Him to bring them temporal gifts i.e. physical peace, total well-being, victory over their physical enemies, NOT SPIRITUAL GIFTS.

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I UNDERSTAND and AGREE. Your One Lord God is my One Lord God and He revealed Biblical Judaism which formed the basis of Christianity. God promised salvation from the Jews. It doesn't get any better than that, but you have got to understand the spiritual sense of it all to appreciate it.

lEAUKI POSTS:

G-d also promised us a land. You claim He broke that promise. I claim He wouldn't do that, ever.

No, no, no Leauki, I claim that Almighty God already fulfilled His promise of a land and gave the Scriptural passages that prove it.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Catholics are filled with hope and a sense of security

This is NOT true. The RCC does not teach eternal security nor does it teach that one can know he has eternal life for sure. To me that is not hope. I do have hope because I believe that the salvation that I have gives me not only true security but I can KNOW that I have eternal life according to the word of God himself. I plan on writing on this soon. Stay tuned.

but it's not going to be on this earth.

It IS going to be on this earth. It will be a new earth but it will still be earth. There is only one earth.

"and I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away...." Rev 21:1

The Greek word for new is Kainos" and means new as to quality not origin. It's the same word Paul used for the converted believer that they were new creatures. They were still the same but new at the same time. I'm still me but at my conversion I became a new person. When Christ talked about the new wine the word is used and interpreted "fresh." It's going to be a new earth not in origin but in quality. A better quality earth because all the sin will be wiped out and it will be renewed just like we were at conversion when we accepted Christ for salvation.

And for a while I kept quoting them to show you what Jesus hasn't fullfilled.

But there is no point in that because you dismiss anything you don't like in the Bible as having a "spiritual" meaning.

and that's how they get around certain things...it's very common. People spiritualize scriptures they don't wish to take literally so they can make it say anything they want. The Jews did this too Leauki when it came to Christ. For instance, for years before Christ Isaiah 53 was thought to be a description of the coming Messiah until he came. Then they changed it spiritualizing it to mean Israel as a nation because it fit too closely to the Christ who claimed to be the Messiah.

So that leaves me telling you that if someone comes and claims to be the Messias...watch out, he's a liar.

now I agree with this because when the Messiah (Christ) comes back it will be so that every eye will see him. It will be, as he said, like lightening from the east to the west (Matt 24).

Yes, you quoted Isaias. All of the OT prophecies have been fulfilled

Really? That's it? So when did the lamb and the lion lie down in peace? When did the lion eat straw? When did Jerusalem lie in peace? Not even close Lula. There are many more prophecies concerning the second coming then there are the first.

Just like the first coming was a series of events...birth, life, miracles, teachings, death, burial and resurrection of Christ etc..so two will the second coming be a series of events. That's what Revelation is ALL ABOUT. But your church has told you a lie. They have taught to backdate the scriptures as tho they have already happened. You are belieivng a lie on purpose. Peter called it being ignorant on purpose.

Your post #207 makes no sense at all to the scripture that was posted. It's a bunch of mumbling nonesense. You did not directly address the scripture only gave your opinion (or the RCC's commentary on that scripture).

G-d also promised us a land. You claim He broke that promise. I claim He wouldn't do that, ever.

Leauki you're absolutely right on this one and will be shared by Jew and Gentile alike because there will only be one God and we will all go up to Jerusalem to worship the true King when this happens.

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Yes, you quoted Isaias. All of the OT prophecies have been fulfilled.

Leauki posts:

So where is the rebuilt Jerusalem?

Isaias was fulfilled by the time of Herod's Temple finished in 10BC, Jerusalem was rebuilt (in time for the Messias to arrive just as the Prophets predicted He would).

Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD and is now rebuilt.

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Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD and is now rebuilt.

And we'll see whether it will be brought back into its original state by the Messiah or anyone.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Isaias was fulfilled by the time of Herod's Temple finished in 10BC, Jerusalem was rebuilt (in time for the Messias to arrive just as the Prophets predicted He would).

No, NO, NO. This is YOUR interpretation by ignoring the scriptures. It's like you're skimming it but then saying oh it's already happened without even really looking at it.

Read Isaiah 65 again. I posted it already. So I won't do it again. It says they will build house and inhabit them and plant vineyards that will be all theirs. This did not happen during the Roman occupation. Everything was Rome's. Rome owned Jerusalem and that's why the Zionists were so impatient to overthrow Rome. This scripture has NOTHING to do with 70 A.D. or before. It says in v19 there will be no more weeping and that Jerusalem will be a place of rejoicing. When did this happen? Israel has not been in possession of her own land since 586 B.C. Even today they don't without everyone in the world telling them what to do. They can't build or plant or do anything without permission or acceptance by the powers that be.

It has NEVER happened since the Babylonian captivity in 586 B.C. This is ALL Future. When did the wolf and lamb lie down together? It's all part of that prophecy saying there will one day be total peace so much so that even the animal kingdom will be involved. It will be the Garden of Eden restored. One day in the future.

In 66:12-14 it continues to say:

Behold I will extend peace to her like a river and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream then shall you suck you shall be borne upon her sides and be dandled upon her knees. As one whom his mother comfors so will I comfort you and you shall be comforted in Jerusalem. When you see this your heart shall rejoice and your bones shall flourish like an herb; and the hand of the Lord shhall be known toward his servants and his indignation toward his enemies.

This is a description of the millennial age that you don't believe in Lula. YOu're saying this has already come about since Isaiah wrote this? When? 70 AD? Does this sound like 70 A.D. or before to you? There is NO history that can back this scripture and many more up Lula. Your saying so doesn't make it so.

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kfc posts:

It IS going to be on this earth. It will be a new earth but it will still be earth. There is only one earth. "and I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away...." Rev 21:1

Yes, there is only one earth and what does 2St.Peter 3:9-14 say about it?

9 The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance. 10 But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief, in which the heavens shall pass away with great violence, and the elements shall be melted with heat, and the earth and the works which are in it, shall be burnt up.

11 Seeing then that all these things are to be dissolved, what manner of people ought you to be in holy conversation and godliness? 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of the Lord, by which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with the burning heat? 13 But we look for new heavens and a new earth according to his promises, in which justice dwelleth. 14 Wherefore, dearly beloved, waiting for these things, be diligent that you may be found before him unspotted and blameless in peace.

Rev. 21:1 says the first earth was passed away. (so, if the first earth has passed away, that indicative of the new heavens and new earth. Put that together with 2St.Peter and it's clear that Isaias' peace is not going to be on this earth. This earth is gone, done away with at the end of the world.

Isaias' messianic peace is presented as one of the possessions of Christians in the present world and time. The flourishing condition of the Church is described as peace Acts. 9:31 was then, is now and will be until the end of the world when Christ comes again in glory.

Earth, time, history will end and after the Final Judgment, the Messianic age will have triumpthed and paradisaic harmony of Is. 11:6 and 65:25 will be restored in the eternal new heavens and the new earth.

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And we'll see whether it will be brought back into its original state by the Messiah or anyone.

Again, you are thinking in the physical... the world, with Jerusalem and Rome and everything else will be burnt to smithereens at the end of the world. Then comes the General Judgment and for those whose name is in the Book of LIfe get passed through the pearly gates of eternal heavenly life in the eternal city, the New Jerusalem.

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lula posts:

Yes, you quoted Isaias. All of the OT prophecies have been fulfilled. Some in the time close to the prophecy, and others by Jesus, His birth, life, work, passion, death, resurrection and ascension into heaven. Some have multiple fullfillments such as Daniel's abomination of desolation.

[quote] Leauki posts: So where is the rebuilt Jerusalem?[/quot

lula posts:

Isaias was fulfilled by the time of Herod's Temple finished in 10BC, Jerusalem was rebuilt (in time for the Messias to arrive just as the Prophets predicted He would). Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD and is now rebuilt.

kfc posts:

No, NO, NO. This is YOUR interpretation by ignoring the scriptures. It's like you're skimming it but then saying oh it's already happened without even really looking at it. Read Isaiah 65 again. I posted it already.

KFC,

First, mine was a direct answer to Leauki's question, "So where is the rebuilt Jerusalem?"

Second, please note the highlighted...where I said some have multiple fulfillments...Isaias has 66 chapters...and parts of Isaias have already been fulfilled. I agree with you that Is. 65 points to the future...I beleive it points to the Eternal New Jersualem in the new heavens and the new earth.

..... When did the wolf and lamb lie down together? It's all part of that prophecy saying there will one day be total peace so much so that even the animal kingdom will be involved. It will be the Garden of Eden restored. One day in the future. In 66:12-14 it continues to say: Behold I will extend peace to her like a river and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream then shall you suck you shall be borne upon her sides and be dandled upon her knees. As one whom his mother comfors so will I comfort you and you shall be comforted in Jerusalem. When you see this your heart shall rejoice and your bones shall flourish like an herb; and the hand of the Lord shhall be known toward his servants and his indignation toward his enemies.

I agree. Is. 65 is future...not some "millennial age" but rather eternal future...after the General Judgment, paradisiac peace will be restored like the original in the Garden of Paradise..with new heavens and new earth.

This is a description of the millennial age that you don't believe in Lula.

Isaias 65 is NOT a description of any "millennial age" but rather an eternal state as I have already described. You're saying Is. 65 is a description of the future millennial age is mouthing Dispensationalist PreMillennialism or Millenarianism which is a supposed future thousand year reign of Christ on this present earth. It's pure fable fabricated on misinterpretation of Scripture.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Yes, you quoted Isaias. All of the OT prophecies have been fulfilled

Lula, you said the above first and then you said...

I agree. Is. 65 is future

I agree with you that Is. 65 points to the future...I beleive it points to the Eternal New Jersualem in the new heavens and the new earth.

????? Am I missing something?

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Rev. 21:1 says the first earth was passed away

did you not read my response in #215? I gave you the definition for new that is used here in the Greek. It's not new in origin.

It's like when we come to Christ ...our old nature is passed away and we receive a new nature. I'm still me though. I'm not another person. I'm a new creature in Christ. It's the same word used here for "new earth."

It's like you're totally ignoring what I'm saying and just continuing on like I never said a thing.

When the earth was destroyed by flood we had a new earth then too. But it wasn't a new (origin) earth in the sense you're saying. The next time will be by fire. He will cleanse the earth by fire and it will be destroyed. It will be a new earth. All the sin will be wiped away.

Someday we will receive new bodies too. But we will somehow be able to recognize each other. Jesus received a new body right? The same with us. His body was not in the grave anymore. God used the old body and restored it somehow. Jesus now has a new body like we will have. That's what he will do with the earth.

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Yes, you quoted Isaias. All of the OT prophecies have been fulfilled

Lula, you said the above first and then you said...

I agree. Is. 65 is future

I agree with you that Is. 65 points to the future...I beleive it points to the Eternal New Jersualem in the new heavens and the new earth.

????? Am I missing something?

Pardon me if I'm being confusing here. I'll try again.

I think that all of the OT prophecies have been fulfilled but some have multiple fulfillments that will occur in the future. Isaias' Messianic prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ (one fulfillment) who established His Messianic kingdom, the Church.(another fulfillment) and that Messianic Kingdom will reach perfection in Christ in eternity (another fulfillment albeit in the future).

His Kingdom which is presently in "exodus" until the end of the world is a limited reality of what it is to become in eternity. This is where Is. 65 comes in with more details about the Messianic kingdom of God in the new heavens and the new earth. (future fulfillment).

lula posts 219

Earth, time, history will end and after the Final Judgment, the Messianic age will have triumpthed and paradisaic harmony of Is. 11:6 and 65:25 will be restored in the eternal new heavens and the new earth.

I'll expand on this using 2St.Peter 3:13 and Rev. 21:1. At the end of time the Messianic Kingdom of God will come into its fullness. After the universal Judgment, the righteous will reign forever with Christ glorified in body and soul. The universe itself will be renewed. The Church will receive her perfection in the glory of heaven. This is when the universe too will be perfectly es-established IN Christ. This mysterious renewal of humanity, the earth and the universe is called "new heavens and a new earth." It will be the definitive of God's plan to bring under a single head "all things in Christ". Eph. 1:10.

In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have His dwelling among men. This is when there will be no more tears, no more death, no mourning, crying, pain, for all these former things have passed away.

St.Irenaeus sermon on The Apoc. 21:4, writes the visible universe then is itself destined to be transformed "so that the world itself, restored to its original state, (are you reading this Leauki?), facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ."

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No, no, no Leauki, I claim that Almighty God already fulfilled His promise of a land and gave the Scriptural passages that prove it.

Oh yes, right, the new, improved short eternity.

Try promising your children a toy for Christmas and then take it away a day later and tell them that you fullfilled your promise since they had the toy for a while.

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