A View From the Cross » Forum Post by lulapilgrim

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

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Leauki...one more thing I thought of today after you gave me Ezekiel 16:53. If you read on to v60 you would read this..

"Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant."

I'm especially looking at the "days of thy youth." I think this means when Israel, is a young nation, which is why many of us believe we are are looking at being very near end times now. Israel coming into her nation in 1948 makes for a very young nation among nations today. Many believe that this will be the generation when the Messiah does come back. That's why years ago the JW's and others were looking at 1988 (40 years) with quite a bit of interest. Of course that came and went. While a generation can be 40 years (as like the time in the wilderness) it can also mean 70 years (like the captivity) so only time will tell.

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Leaukiposts 116

Ezekiel 16:55

And your sisters: Sodom and her daughters shall return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former state, and you and your daughters shall return to your former state.

What is the "former state" referred to here?

KFC posts: 119

Ok. There's alot to this. To simplify in Marv's words. The prophets saw ONLY the first coming and the second coming but as one period of time; not two like we do. They saw and wrote about the suffering Messiah and the Conquering King. They DID NOT see the valley in between these two mountain tops as they looked way up ahead. They totally missed the valley in between because it had nothing to do with them. It was the "times of the Gentiles" and not pertaining to them.

Go to Daniel 11:36-45 and read about this time. The AC will set up his headquaters in Palestine between Jerusalem and the Mediterranean Sea (v45) but his end will come after the "abomination of desolation" (v31) by polluting the new Temple. There will be a hatred for the Jews unlike any other time in history. We are gearing up for that now.

So this is Marv's teaching on what Ezekiel 16:55 means.

The word "prophet" comes from the Greek pro-phetes which means "to speak on behalf of someone." It has nothing to do with predicting the future, an activity in Greek as mantis. The Hebrew word for pro-phetes is nabi and its reference is religious. "Nabi" came to mean "one chosen by God to speak in His name." So Gods's prophet is the one speaking in the name of God or being His spokesman , right?

Marv's teaching doesn't make sense when you consider who the Prophets were and their purpose. God's knew what He was doing with His prophets....Being His spokesmen, they wouldn't "have totally missed" anything.

And your summation which is highlighted is pure conjecture. In the time of the Antichrist, hatred and persecution will be at an all time high against all those who believe and stand up for Christ.

KFC POSTS 119

Here Ezechiel was writing about the second coming when the Messiah would come back to set up his rule. So yes, the ultimate restoration of Sodom, Samaria, and Israel awaits the establishing of Christ's kingdom on the present earth.

Like most of Scripture, to understand verse 55, we must go to the beginning of the chapter. And we learn that Ezechiel is announcing the sentence passed on Israel and Judah on account of the transgressions and sins piling up. He does this by imagining a formal trial (rib) in which the charges are described by a series of allegories.

Verses 1-43 is the story of the unfaithful and evil wife who stands for Israel.

Hosea 1-3 first uses the metaphor of the wanton wife to charge Israel with her infidelity. Jeremias 2:2 uses the imagery of marriage to describe the covenant and how Israel came to break it. Ezechiel develops this metaphor the most. The wife is Jerusalem depicted with negative features from her birth onwards. v. 1-5 and then completely transformed into the most beautiful of princesses v. 6-14. However, she's proved unfaithful and committed adultery with the empires of Egypt, Assyria and Babylon. v. 15-34.

This metaphor makes the point that Jerusalem is a city that had a history of sin and infidelty to God and His laws. Verses 38 the sentence must be passed. I will judge you as women who break wedlock. ...she will bece the prey of nations that she adulated. Vs. 35-41.

Verse 44 begins Ezechial's allegory of members of a family.....Jerusalem and her sisters, Samora and Sodom. He's drawing a comparison between Jerusalem's conduct and that of Samara (Israel) and Sodom, who are depicted as 3 sisters. Samara was invaded by Assyria in punishment for her idolatry and long before that, Sodomwas engulfed by fire becasue of her perverse conduct. But Jerusalem has behaved far worse than her sisters v. 47-48. and therefore must pay the price for her sins. v. 43, 58.

Ezechiel uses these allegories to make the point that Jerusalem's sins are particularly grevious becasue they are committed by the most beloved city of the Lord God.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

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Marv's teaching doesn't make sense when you consider who the Prophets were and their purpose. God's knew what He was doing with His prophets....Being His spokesmen, they wouldn't "have totally missed" anything.

they wrote what they saw Lula. They didn't always understand.

Daniel wrote this:

"And I heard but I understood not then said I, O my Lord what shall be the end of these things? And he said Go thy way Daniel for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." Daniel 12:8-9

Even Daniel, who wrote them down DID NOT understand these prophesies. God knew, but they didn't always. It wasn't for them to understand totally. It was for them to be obedient and write down what they were inspired to. Even in the NT we see this. The Apostles and writers didn't totally understand all things. Only what God had revealed to them at the time. They all thought that Christ would return in their day but He did not. They wrote about it as though he could come back anytime and for us to be ready.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

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So this is Marv's teaching on what Ezekiel 16:55 means.

no. You took things out of context. I quoted Marv ONLY when I said what he said about the mountain tops. You took it much further.

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The Messiah will come AFTER the AC sits in the temple declaring himself God, and that's when the Jews will recognize Him...

Aye..yi..yi! "The Messiah will come" is a bunch of nonsense. Why don't you talk in terms of Scriptually what IS......THE MESSIAS HAS COME.

The Messias who has come is the Christ. The Messias came to redeem the world and He did.

Scriptute is crystal clear that when CHRIST comes again, it MOST ASSUREDLY WON'T BE AS THE MESSIAS.

Scripture is crystal clear that when Christ comes again, it will be as the Judge of all mankind at the end of the world.

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Leaukiposts 116

Ezekiel 16:55

And your sisters: Sodom and her daughters shall return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former state, and you and your daughters shall return to your former state.

What is the "former state" referred to here?

KFC POSTS 119

Here Ezechiel was writing about the second coming when the Messiah would come back to set up his rule.......

There is no such thing in Scripture as the Messias coming back to set up His rule. This is pure Rapturist/Christian Zionist/Millennialist endtime conjecture on your part.

Scripture is clear that Christ will come again to Judge the living and the dead at the end of the world. That's it...after that all souls are off to spending eternity either in Heaven or Hell. The four last things are Death, Judgment, Heaven or Hell.

[quote]KFC POSTS 119

So yes, the ultimate restoration of Sodom, Samaria, and Israel awaits the establishing of Christ's kingdom on the present earth.[/quote]

Christ has already established His Messianic Kingdom. Scriputre gives the details that Christ accomplished establishing His Kingdomduring His ministry on earth. His kingdomis His Church. The parable of the mustard seed describes His Kingdom, His Church, the New Jerusalem.

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There is no such thing in Scripture as the Messias coming back to set up His rule. This is pure Rapturist/Christian Zionist/Millennialist endtime conjecture on your part.

But if Jesus was the Messiah, he has to come back.

Otherwise he cannot fullfill his task.

Not all Israelites have returned to Israel. The world is not at peace.

If he doesn't come back to finish the job, he cannot be the Messiah.

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"Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant."

I'm especially looking at the "days of thy youth." I think this means when Israel, is a young nation, which is why many of us believe we are are looking at being very near end times now. Israel coming into her nation in 1948 makes for a very young nation among nations today. Many believe that this will be the generation when the Messiah does come back. That's why years ago the JW's and others were looking at 1988 (40 years) with quite a bit of interest. Of course that came and went. While a generation can be 40 years (as like the time in the wilderness) it can also mean 70 years (like the captivity) so only time will tell.

That's an interesting point!

I just don't like the terms you use. The state of Israel is a _country_ not a _nation_. The people of Israel (i.e. Jews, Samaritans, Ethiopian Jews etc.) are a nation.

These two terms became confused when the United _Nations_ decided to become a United Regimes. Originally the United Nations were about nations (hence the independence of Israel based on Jewish nationality). But this has been lost.

The (current) state of Israel is very young. And maybe what you say is true.

Looking forward to it!

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KFC Kickin For Christ

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Christ has already established His Messianic Kingdom

NOT even close Lula. He redeemed us but He will return to establish it. Does it look like He has established it to you? Look around. I don't think so.

There is no such thing in Scripture as the Messias coming back to set up His rule

Then why is there a New Jerusalem coming down from heaven at the very end? Why does Revelation say that God is going to bring in a new earth? Why do we need a new earth? Isaiah has many prophecies where it says what the earth will be like at that time.."the lion will lay down with the lamb" "all the nations of the earth will go up the new Jerusalem" etc. Why do we have such descriptions then? Why are we told to pray for the peace of Jerusalem when we know that the only way that's going to happen is when the Prince of Peace comes back?

You may want to do some HW. Go and read, for instance Ezek 37 where you'll see the Promises of Israel that will be fulfilled at the second coming of Christ which will include restoration to the land of Palestine, v21, unification of the two kingdoms, v22, purification from all idolatry, v23, Messiah's ruling over them v24, possession of the land forever, v25 and the presence of God and His sanctuary in their midst, v26-28.

But if Jesus was the Messiah, he has to come back.

Just before he ascended he assured the disciples that he would be back. After he left, the angels present told them as they gazed up into the heavens that Jesus would descend just the way he ascended the next time he came back. There is NO question that He will be back. This time when He does His feet will actually touch the Mount of Olives sending a split along it to form a valley.

I just don't like the terms you use. The state of Israel is a _country_ not a _nation_. The people of Israel (i.e. Jews, Samaritans, Ethiopian Jews etc.) are a nation.

When I use the term "nation of Israel" I'm speaking about God's covenant people and the land which is what I think you're saying as well. I would use that term before 1948 and today. In the wilderness I would call them a nation with no home before they went into the land flowing with milk and honey. The people and the land are always linked in scripture. Quite often you read in scripture "thy people and thy holy city" which means Jerusalem. They are always linked but they were always called a nation before and after entering their homeland. So when I say Nation I am referring to the people in their land.

But maybe you have a point..maybe I mean to say "in the days of their youth" meaning when Israel is a young country as we know it today. Israel as a Nation is as old as the hills but as for their country they are very very young as far as countries go.

They are called a Nation in the OT many times. Moses wrote:

"and you shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and a Holy nation..." Ex 19:6

"I will smite them with the pestilence and disinherit them and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they." Numbers 14:12

"Let me alone that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they." Deut 9:14

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KFC posts 125

Paul, when he was writing to the Thessalonians, mentioned the rebuilt temple, maybe not knowing himself at the time that it would be a rebuilt one, but now we know from reading what he said that it HAS TO BE constructed. He said this concerning this future time:

"Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come (rapture or gathering of his people to him) except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed (AC); the son of perdition. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he as God sits in the TEMPLE of God showing himself that he is God."

This has NOT happened yet. Paul wrote this about 51 A.D. BEFORE the 2nd Temple was destroyed. He had NO idea when this would happen but he wrote that it would. For all he knew it could be anyday now when he was writing this. Now we know today there is NO time in history from 51-70 A.D. where this happened. Paul was killed in about 67 A.D.

KFC,

Big sigh! Here you go again. You're misinterpreting 2Thess. 2:3-4 in the interest of promoting those foolish Rapturist / Millennialist beliefs and predictions. You are really getting carried away, putting a lot of effort into making specific predictions working out when the Second Coming will take place and that's not what Christians are supposed to do.

What was going on with the Thessalonians that St.Paul was addressing in his letter to them? You quoted only verses 3 and 4, when verses 1 And 2 as well as the rest of this section are necessary for understanding St. Paul's teaching.

Above, note the highlighted: "for that day shall not come". There is no "for that day shall not come" in the Douay Rheims version. 2 Thess. 2:3-4 is "Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God."

But putting that difference aside for a moment, we could rightly understand "that day" from reading verses 1 and 2. St.Paul writes, "We beseech you , brethren, concerning the coming of Our Lord, Jesus Christ and of our gathering together unto Him: that you be not easily shaken in mind nor be terrified neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as sent from us as if the day of the Lord were at hand."

The Thessalonians Christians had been hearing false predictions that "that day" was coming. That is, Christ's Second Coming was at any moment. And you quoted the two verses 3-4 in which St.Paul explains that Our Lord's Second Coming will not be until 2 things must happen first.

1----a great apostasy (that is, a substantial part of the world population will lose all knowledge and love of God) and 2----the the "man of sin" is revealed when he sits in the Temple of God, showing himself to be God.

You write:

Paul, when he was writing to the Thessalonians, mentioned the rebuilt temple, maybe not knowing himself at the time that it would be a rebuilt one, but now we know from reading what he said that it HAS TO BE constructed.

You're making false conclusions. No, KFC. St.Paul never, ever mentioned or meant a "rebuilt" Temple as you say he does.

The Greek word for "temple" in this verse is naos. Naos is used in the NT to designate other temples. What's more, St.Paul never once uses this word to designate the Jerusalem Temple. He used the more common NT word for temple, hieron. 1Cor. 9:13. Whenever St.Paul uses the word naos, he's referring to New Covenant temples. Check his writings...these "temples" include either the Church, or the individual Christian, both of which are New Covenant temples indwelt by the Holy Spirit. 1Cor. 3:16-17; 6:19; 2Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21.

This is why we know St.Paul is not writing about a future rebuilt Jerusalem Temple. When St.Paul's other teachings in Hebrews, Corinthians and Galatians are taken into consideration, it makes perfect sense that St.Paul understood the New Covenant Church as the new Temple. It's the New Covenant Church that's going to witness the "man of sin" revealed during the final confrontation between good and evil. In the Apocalypse this is referred to as the battle between God and Magog. And of this, in the last few verses in this section, St.Paul reassures and offers comfort to the Thessalonians and us....that Christ is the Victor in this confrontation.

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They are called a Nation in the OT many times.

Of course.

There is a "nation of Israel", i.e. a bunch of people.

And there is a "land of Israel", i.e. the land around the river Jordan south of Lebanon and east of the Sinai.

Finally there is a "state of Israel", i.e. a state located in the land of Israel belonging to the nation of Israel.

The first existed since Jacob was renamed Israel. (Of course, it existed as a family first, then as a clan, then a tribe, and finally many tribes which is a nation.)

The second existed ever since G-d gave the land to Jacob's descendants. (Before it was known as Canaan.)

And the third existed since the cities of Canaan fell to the reclaimed Jerusalem and then on and off for several thousands years.

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kfc posts 125

Paul, when he was writing to the Thessalonians, mentioned the rebuilt temple, maybe not knowing himself at the time that it would be a rebuilt one, but now we know from reading what he said that it HAS TO BE constructed. He said this concerning this future time:

"Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come (rapture or gathering of his people to him) except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed (AC); the son of perdition. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he as God sits in the TEMPLE of God showing himself that he is God."

This has NOT happened yet. Paul wrote this about 51 A.D. BEFORE the 2nd Temple was destroyed. He had NO idea when this would happen but he wrote that it would. For all he knew it could be anyday now when he was writing this. Now we know today there is NO time in history from 51-70 A.D. where this happened. Paul was killed in about 67 A.D.

2 Thess. 2:1-5

1 And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him: 2 That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, 4 Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. 5 Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Re: the highlighted.

Verse 1 governs what "that day" of your verse 3 means. "That day" is the Second Coming of Christ in glory as Judge when we will be judged and admitted into or left out of God's eternal kingdom. What follows the Judgment is eternity.

Just to be clear, that means the rapture (the gathering together unto Him) does not occur before the appearance of the Antichrist . There is no 2-stage Second Coming of Christ.

This passage doesn't teach a future rebuilt temple...it doesn't teach a separate reign of Jesus as Messias in earthly Jerusalem before or after the Final Judgement.

This has NOT happened yet. Paul wrote this about 51 A.D. BEFORE the 2nd Temple was destroyed. He had NO idea when this would happen but he wrote that it would. For all he knew it could be anyday now when he was writing this. Now we know today there is NO time in history from 51-70 A.D. where this happened. Paul was killed in about 67 A.D.

Obviously this has not happened since St.Paul was writing about the Second Coming of Christ which we learned in his first letter to the Thessalonians will come like a thief in the night. We are told "that day", "the day of the Lord" can be applied to the day each person dies which may be sudden. Are we prepared? Are we walking in the light or in darkness?

Daniel also foretold this as did Christ in Matthew 24:15. Daniel was so upset at seeing this future vision that it says he was greatly troubled. So we are still waiting. And since there is no temple now, there has to be sometime before this prophecy can take place. Otherwise it makes no sense.

Ya, some are waiting, waiting, waiting for a Temple in Jeusalem that you agree will be built in vain. But this rebuilding a future temple has nothing to do with fulfillment of Sacred Scripture. Daniel's visions have all been fulfilled, including the 70 weeks (7 decades) which were the events leading up to the convental transition from the Old to the New.

Daniel predicted the Roman Empire would be in power when Messias came....It happened.

Daniel predicted the rebuilding of Jerusalem and its Temple as a precondition of the CHrist's First Coming....It happened.

Daniel predicted the great tribulation of Christ's early Chruch...it happened.

Daniel predicted the Passion of our Lord along with its 6 blessings...it happened.

Daniel predicted the establishment of a new strong covenant...it happened.

Daniel predicted the destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple and Old Testament Judaism (what I call Biblical Judaism)...it happened.

Daniel even predicted his own death. 12:13...he will die but still "shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days" This is the closest Daniel got to envisioning the Second Coming and understanding the endtimes.

Daniel's overall message was that God's spiritual kingdom came when the Messias appeared during the Roman Empire. The 70 weeks ended in 67-70AD by which time the 6 blessings bestowed on CHrist's Church were evident to the world. Just as the other OT prophets, Christ's birth, death, resurrection, and founding of the New COvenant Chruch and the judgment upon those who rejected His new Kingdom are the fulfillment of those prophecies.

St.Paul writes about the establishment of the strong, new covenant and the ending of the Old. And Zacharias makes is crystal clear that God will never return to His OLd Covenant with ethnic Isreal. God broke that relationship forever during Daniel's 70 week.

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lULA POSTS:

Jesus did "rebuild" the Temple already. As to "Temple" there are different Scriptural meanings and uses of the word "Temple" and perhaps it would be beneficial to discuss those. Failing to understand the Holy Scriptures adequately, you and others who come to certain passages with a preset agenda, think only of the rebuilding of a physical, material Temple.

LEAUKI POSTS:

No, Jesus didn't rebuilt the Temple already.

And there is no other "meaning" of "Temple". A temple is a temple is a temple.

lEAUKI,

Yes, Scripture uses the the word "temple" in different ways, but with one common denominator....always signifying a place where God expressed His presence in a special way. "Temple" isn't restricted to only the physical building that stood in Jerusalem until 70AD.

Have you heard or read the account of St.John 2: 13-22 when at the time of Passover, Jesus went to the Jerusalem Temple and upon seeing the abuses overturned the moneychangers' tables and drove them out? He said to them, "...Take these things away, you shall not make My Father's house a house of trade."

The Jews said, "What signs do you have to show for doing this?" ANd Jesus answered, "Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews said, "it has taken 46 years to build this Temple, and you will raise it up in three days?"

But here as Jesus stood in the Temple courtyard, He used a different understanding of "temple". He was speaking of His own physical Body. Even His disciples didn't understand this at the time but they did later recognize it as a clear reference to His Crucifixion ("Destroy this Temple") and Resurrection ("and in three days, I will raise it up."). On the other hand, the Jews thought Jesus was referring to Herod's Temple built of stone.

From St.Matt. 26:61, we learn the ultimate Temple is our Lord Jesus Christ.

As Our Lord's Sacred Body is a Temple, so is our body also a temple. "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God?....So glorify God in your body" 1Cor. 6:19-20.

Catholics hold that the greatest example of a human temple is Jesus' Blessed Mother Mary. Her womb was actually the physical home of God the Son for 9 months. Scripture, Apoc. 11:19; 21:1,5, likens her to the new ark of the Covenant.

Besides human temples, the New Covenant Church is also a Temple of God...made of human members with God's Spirit enlivening her. St.Paul teaches in Eph. 2:19-21, " You are....members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple of the living God; as God said, "I will live in them and move among them, and I will be their God and they shall be my people." 2Cor. 6:16; Ex. 25:8; Ezek. 37:27

In Old Covenant times, the Hebrew Bible (the Pentateuch) was viewed as a temple. It was the inner sanctuary, the Holy of Holies. The prophets were the Holy Place and the writings were the outer court of the Gentiles. Even Jerusalem was considered a Temple becasue God dwelt in this city in a unique way, becasue of the sacrificial Temple.

There is one more temple in the OLd Testament....the earth or the whole universe.

Put the way Scripture uses Temple together with prophecy. The OT foretold that the Temple buildings must be destroyed and rebuilt. History confirms that Jerusalem was destroyed and rebuilt. Our bodies as temples are going to be destroyed in death and then resurrected. 2Cor. 4:16. When the Messias came, even the Temple of Christ's Body was destroyed by death on the Cross. While the rebuilding of the Temple foreshadowed the Messias' Resurrection, CHrist's Resurrection foreshadowed the resurrection of all CHristians at the end of history; becasue Christ is 'the first fruits" of all human resurrection. 1Cor. 15:20.

2St.Peter 3:15 tells us that the final temple to be destroyed at the end of time is that of heaven and earth, as well as the universe. (As all the earth will be destroyed, that means Jerusalem will be as well).

All of the different temples of Scripture point to the final event at the end of the world, the end of history, the end of time.

The new heaven and earth will be eternal, that is outside of time. The Church, the Body of Christ, the Kingdom of God , the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ has entered eternity.

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lula posts:

All the OT prophets pointed to the Emmanuel who would be born in the time, place and circumstances exactly as Jesus Christ was.

Leauki posts 123

The time and circumstances where not mentioned. And neither was Jesus' name ever "Emmanuel".

Investigate and you will find that the Biblically recorded prophecies regarding the Jewish Messias have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Genesis 49......Born of the tribe of Judah.

Is. 11: 1-2......Born in the house of David.

Michaes 5:2.....Born in Bethlehem.

Numbers 24:17.....Born under the star of Jacob.

Gen. 11:10.......Born when the sceptre, political independence of Judah was taken away.

Is. 7:14.......Born of a VIrgin Mother.

Daniel 9......Born in the time Daniel foretold.

Is. 11:1.....Called a Nazarite.

Is. 9:6.......Called, "God the Mighty," "Prince of Peace".

Ps. 71:10....Kings would come with presents to adore.

Osee 11:1....Would have to make flight into Egypt.

Is. 35:5-6.....Would perform great miracles.

Zach. 11:12-13....Would be hailed as King while riding on an ass into Jerusalem.

Osee 11:1....Would be conspired against.

Is. 53.....Would be a Man of sorrows.

Ps. 40:10....Would be betrayed.

Zach. 11:12-13...Would be sold for 30 pieces of silver.

Is. 50:6....Would suffer willingly for our sins.

Is. 53:7....Would be led like a sheep to slaughter.

Ps. 21.....Would have His hands and feet pierced.

Is. 11:10...Would be resurrected from the dead.

Yes, there are Biblical texts sufficient to prove that Jesus was called "the Emmanuel, God with us." Isaias 9 foretold that " a virgin would conceive and bring forth a child" who "shall be called the Emmanuel, God with us...God the Mighty." Daniel 7:14; 9. Mary fulfilled this prediction. She brought "God the Mighty, to us, that is in His humanity. Furthermore, St.Luke 1 records that God, through the Angel Gabriel told Mary that she was to "bring forth a Son, and thou shalt call His Name Jesus. He shall be called the Son of the Most High....the Holy One to be born shall be called the Son of God."

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Daniel predicted the destruction of Jerusalem, the Temple and Old Testament Judaism (what I call Biblical Judaism)...it happened.

Where does he predict that?

Anyway, Biblical Judaism still exists. So again you appear to be wrong.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

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Daniel's visions have all been fulfilled, including the 70 weeks (7 decades) which were the events leading up to the convental transition from the Old to the New.

nope. Only the first 69 weeks have been fulfilled. Not the last week. Obviously because we are still here. Hasn't happened yet. There's NO WAY you can make the dates fit.

This passage doesn't teach a future rebuilt temple...it doesn't teach a separate reign of Jesus as Messias in earthly Jerusalem before or after the Final Judgement.

it has to. How else can the AC sit in the temple and declare himself God if it's not rebuilt? It didn't happen in 70 A.D. You didn't answer that question. Can you?

Scripture is very clear that Jesus as Messiah will rule an earthly kingdom. He, as David's son will sit on the throne in Jerusalem finally. It's exactly what the Jews have been waiting for.

Just to be clear, that means the rapture (the gathering together unto Him) does not occur before the appearance of the Antichrist . There is no 2-stage Second Coming of Christ.

I never said it did. Jesus said to watch for the "abomination of desolation" that would happen so obviously we are going to still be here when the AC comes. Paul also said it when he said the AC would first have to be revealed. I think he's probably here now by the looks of things going on in the world today.

The tribulation is caused by the AC. Jesus called it a "great tribulation" that has never been seen before since time began. Just like Noah went thru man's tribulation before he was shut into the ark so too must we go thru dark times first. Then after the tribulation God will snatch his people up (rapture) and then he will pour down his wrath on the earth (bowl & trumpet judgments in Revelation). Just like Noah was protected by God's wrath upon the earth the first time, so too will the Saints (believers) be protected before the wrath of God is poured out all over the earth during those last days.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

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Where does he predict that?

in 9:26 when he said this:

"and after threescore and two weeks (62 weeks of years) shall Messiah (Jesus) be cut off (crucified) but not for himself (sinless) and the people of the prince THAT SHALL COME (anti-christ) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (Jerusalem and the temple) and the end thereof shall be with a flood (uninhabitable) and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

the very next verse v27 is future. It's called Daniel's 70th week and has NOT happened yet. It's the people NOT the A.C. who destroyed the temple. But the A.C. is predicted here would come in the end. It's the ungodly people (Romans) who were against God who did this in 70 A.D.

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in 9:26 when he said this:

This is too complicated for me. There are too many numbers in Daniel 9:24 to 9:27 (the consecutive statements). I can't understand it.

I noticed three things:

1. This does not predict the end of an alleged "Old Testament Judaism".

2. It doesn't say "crucified", but perhaps that is a minor point.

3. It speaks of an "annointed one" but not "the annointed one". In Hebrew those are two different words, one emphatic, one absolute. "The annointed one" is emphatic, like "my father" (one word in Hebrew) or somebody's name. It's the grammatical difference between "catastrophe" and "Holocaust".

The third point is very important. It tells us that this sentence does not refer to the Messiah (Jesus, as you believe) but an annointed king. And in Israel at that time "annointed king" was still Cyrus. Daniel would have known that by using that word he would be understood to be talking about Cyrus or someone like him.

I notice that the American Standard Version, which is a good translation, translated the absolute "messiah" with "Messiah" rather than "the Messiah". While the translation is gramatically correct (emphatic words often correspond to English words with definite article), it fails to transmit the fact that in Hebrew there is only two levels of stand-alone definiteness. Hence the Hebrew term translates as "messiah" could also be translated "a messiah". In fact it would give a better approximation of the Hebrew text. (You wouldn't usually say "I see house" but "I see a house" even though the Hebrew for it could translate into both.)

Ultimately the translation treats "Messiah" as a name (hence the upper-case) but names, in Hebrew, are emphatic and the Hebrew word translated as (the name) "Messiah" isn't emphatic.

I'll have a look at the sentences when I have a bit more time and a dictionary. At the moment I cannot reliably tell the difference between "weeks" and "seventy", let alone add up numbers and see how many weeks there really are.

I also have to check how the same text was translated by someone who doesn't have an interest in this sentence referring to "the messiah" rather than "a messiah".

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

This is too complicated for me. There are too many numbers in Daniel 9:24 to 9:27 (the consecutive statements). I can't understand it.

It can be but once you get it, you can see it. Sir Robert Anderson way back in the 1800's figured out the dates by using both secular history as well as biblical prophecy. You can see how he did so in his book "The Coming Prince" which you can actually read online.

You see 70 weeks (of years) in v24. There would be 7 weeks (of years) and then another 62 to make a total of 69 weeks.

The first 7 weeks were the 49 years it took to build the second temple and walls around Jerusalem. The weeks began with the commandment to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem. This was in 445 B.C (Neh 2:5). This is a historical fact and described in Nehemiah 1 & 2.

So 7 weeks of years (49 years) and then 62 weeks of years (434 years) (leading up to Christ) is 483 years (360 days in a year using the Jewish calendar) and goes right up to April 6, 32 A.D. It works out exactly at the same time that Jesus was going into Jerusalem to be crucified (cut off).

If the last week (seventy) was consesecutive and in the past, as Lula says, then Jerusalem would have been destroyed in 39 A.D. seven years after the crucificion. It didn't happen like that. So there's a pause between the 69 and the 70th week. The last week (7 years) is still ahead of us. Revelation is where we pick up the events of the 70th week. The reason for the gap is the church age. The time of the Gentiles.

This last week is also called the "time of Jacob's trouble" and it will be a terrible time for the whole world but the attention will be mostly on the Jews, because it will be open season on them. The genuine Christians, of course, will stand up for them and will be persecuted as well.

In the OT the Jews saw two Messiahs, Messiah bin Joseph who was the suffering Messiah and Messiah bin David, the conquering Messiah. They didn't understand the mystery which is one Messiah in two comings. Paul desribes this in his book of Ephesians 3:1-6.

And in Israel at that time "annointed king" was still Cyrus. Daniel would have known that by using that word he would be understood to be talking about Cyrus or someone like him.

No, he's speaking way past Cyrus. At this point in time Daniel is very old having been in exile about 67 or so years and later when Daniel couldn't understand all of these prophecies he was told they were not to be needed until the endtimes, 12:4,9. If you look at 10:1 you'd see that Cyrus was already in this third year. Daniel did not go back to Israel when Cyrus let them go. He was probably in his 90's then.

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leauki posts

So far you have totally convinced me that Jesus cannot be the Messiah.

kfc posts 123

You have to remember where she's coming from Leauki. She's coming from that darn RCC theology which says that the RCC has REPLACED Israel. It's called "Replacement Theology" The Jews, in their eyes, killed Christ (not true) and if you notice she didn't use scripture to prove her point. It's all coming from her "tradition" not the scriptures.

Yes, my theology is Catholicism, the one true Faith which does not teach that the Church has replaced Israel, if by "Israel", you mean the modern state of Israel.

Catholic theology teaches all of what Christ and the Apostles taught. I'm thinking specifically of St.Paul's theological treatise to the Hebrews who were Christians of Jewish background who were very familiar with the Hebraic culture particularly the ceremonies and rituals of the Mosaic worship.

Catholic theology teaches..... that salvation came from the Jews.....that Jesus is of the Jews..was for the Jews first as He was their Messias. The Messias, the Christ came and by His Life, Passion, Death and Resurrection redeemed all mankind, including the Jewish people.

Catholic theology teaches that the coming of the Messias accounted for the end of the Aaronic priesthood, the sacrifices, and the Temple for they were not in the Divine plan of the New Dispensation. In Psalm 109, called the "Crown of Psalms" in which David foretold that out of his family was to come a new priest "according to the order of Melchisedech". Like Melchisedech He was to be both King and Priest and to be a priest without genealogy for the genealolgical priesthood of Aaron was to be no more. That Priest came in the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Jesus Christ. The authority of the priesthood of the Old Law ended for good when the Temple Veil of blue, purple and scarlet which by the command of Moses was hung in the Holy of Holies was rent from top to bottom.

With the obliteration of the priesthood the sacrifices of the Old Law came to an end. In place of the offering of animals for sacrifice, bread and wine were to be offered as they were offered by Melchisedech. Instead of a bloody sacrifice, an unbloody sacrifice, ---a "clean oblation"---was to be offered as prophecied by Malachais.

Catholic theology teaches that Jesus Christ, (the Priest according to the order of Melchisedech whose priesthood is continued in Catholic men who receive Holy Orders by the impostiion of hands) instituted the new Sacrifice at the last truly Jewish Passover service when He changed the bread and wine into His Body and Blood, and ordered, "do this in commemmoration of Me. That Sacrifice is offered in the Holy Mass, as Malachais predicted 1:11, "from the rising of the sun to the going down thereof."

Catholic theology teaches that God is not a God of confusion, religious or moral. That's why there cannot be dual Covenants the OLd Mosaic and the New ) in existence at the same time. Shorn of the essentials of the OLd Mosaic Covenant, we can conclude that Judaism as the religion of God has fulfilled it mission. St. Paul's theological treatise to the Hebrews show this. That the New Covenant is the perfection, the fulfillment of the Old Law, which it supercedes. Read it carefully, especially chapter 7. You'll find that Christ's priesthood and sacrifice are superior to those of the Levitical priesthood. What's more St.Paul uses this teaching to exhort his readers to persevere in the one true Faith.

Hebrews 7:11-12, 18-19

11"If then perfection was by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law), what furhter need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchisedech and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being translated (changed), there is necessarilly a translation (change) of the law." 18 There is indeed a setting aside of the former commandment becasue of the weakness and unprofitableness thereof: 19 for the law brought nothing to perfection but a bringing in of a better hope, by which we draw near to God."

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leauki posts

So far you have totally convinced me that Jesus cannot be the Messiah.

kfc posts 123

You have to remember where she's coming from Leauki. She's coming from that darn RCC theology which says that the RCC has REPLACED Israel. It's called "Replacement Theology" The Jews, in their eyes, killed Christ (not true) and if you notice she didn't use scripture to prove her point. It's all coming from her "tradition" not the scriptures.

KFC,

"Not true", you say? "It's all coming from her "tradition" not the Scriptures", you say?

How long has it been since you've read the Passion and Death of Jesus Christ according to the Gospel of St.John 18:1=40; 19:1-42 and St.Matt. 26: 57-66? These are events so important (the triumpth of the Cross) that all the other NT books deal with them in one way or another.

St.John tells us that Jesus is seized and bound and arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane by some soldiers and some officers of the chief priests and the Pharisees. Then He is first taken to the house of Annas, where the religious trial begins. Annas was the father-in-law of Caiaphas who was high priest that year. In 18:14, "It was Caiaphas who had given counsel to the Jews that it was expedient that one man should die for the people."

After questioning Christ, v. 24 "Annas then sent Him bound to Caiaphas the high priest." It's here that St.Matthew reports that the meeting was ended with Jesus being declared deserving death for the blashpemy of declaring Himself the Son of God. Under the Mosiac law blasphemy was punishable by stoning, which the Jews didn't do becasue they wanted to bring the people in on it and many of them believed Jesus as Prophet and Messias. Not daring to stone Him, they shrewdly manage to turn a religious charge into a political question and have the Roman authority come down on their side.

They prefer to denounce Jesus as a revolutionary who plotted against Caesar by declaring Himself to be the Messias and King of the Jews. Our Lord foretold this that He would die in this way. St.Paul wrote, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us---for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree." Gal. 3:13; Deut. 21:23.

v.28, "Then they led Jesus from the house of Caiaphas to the praetorium" where Jesus is tried by the Roman procurator, Pontius Pilate.

St.John gives an extensive account of this trial, highlighting the true character of Christ's Kingship and His rejection by the Jews, who call for His crucifixion. Pilate went out to the Jews and they indict Jesus as an evildoer, v 29-32 "What accusation do you bring against this Man? They answered him, If this man were not an evildoer, we would not have handed him over. Pilate said, Take Him yourselves and judge him by your own law. The Jews said, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death. 32 This was to fulfill the word which Jesus had spoken to show by what death He was to die."

Pilate asks Jesus, v.33-35 "Are you King of the Jews? Jesus answered, Do you say this of your own accord or did others say it to you about Me? Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have handed you over to me; what have you done?"

After speaking with Jesus, Pilate went v. 38-40 "out to the Jews again, and told them, I find no crime in Him. But you have a custom that I should release one man for you at the Passover; will you have me release for you the King of the Jews? They cried out again, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber."

Jesus was then taken to be mocked, scourged, and his head plaited with a crown of thorns. 19:4, Pilate went out again and said to them, Behold I am bringing Him out to you that you may know that I find no crime in Him. ...Pilate said, Here is the man. When the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, Crucify Him, crucify Him. Pilate said, take Him yourself and crucify Him for I find no crime in Him. The Jews answered him, We have a law and by that law He ought to die, becasue He has made Himself the Son of God.

And so hearing this, Pilate went back and spoke with Jesus again. And v. 12-16, "Upon this, Pilate sought to release Him, but the Jews cried out, "If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend; every one who makes himself a king sets himself against Caesar. 13 When Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called Lithostrotos, and in Hebrew, Gabbatha. And it was the Parasceve of the Pasch, about the sixth hour, and he said to the Jews, Behold your King. But they cried out, Away with Him. Away with Him. Crucify Him. Pilate said to them: Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar, then therefore, he delivered Him to them to be crucified.

As Jesus was dying He said, "Father, forgive the; for they know not what they do." Here even as He was dying a most horrible and painful death, Jesus taught us heroic charity. Even though it's quite clear that the people directly responsible for His death were perfectly aware they were condemning an innocent person to death, that they were guilty of homocide, but they didn't realize that they were also committing deicide.

That's what St.Peter, our first Pope, means when he tells the Jews, encouraging them to repent, that they acted in ignorance. Acts. 3:17. St.Paul adds that if they had understood the hidden wisdom of God "they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory" 1Cor. 2:8. Jesus in His Mercy excuses them on the grounds of ignorance.

With this in mind, Catholic theology teaches us to meditate on the Passion and Death of Christ becasue it's evident that everything He suffered he suffered on account of sins...your, mine, and everyone's elses. THerefore, sins were the executioners who bound Him, scourged Him, crowned Him with thorns, and put Him on the Cross. The enorminity and malice of sins is what caused His suffering and death, not becasue these sins required the Son of God to suffer but becasue Divine Justice chose to ask for such a great atonement.

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LULA POSTS:

This passage doesn't teach a future rebuilt temple...it doesn't teach a separate reign of Jesus as Messias in earthly Jerusalem before or after the Final Judgement.

KFC POSTS 141

it has to. How else can the AC sit in the temple and declare himself God if it's not rebuilt? It didn't happen in 70 A.D. You didn't answer that question. Can you?

Yes, I responded to this in depth in post 102. Your interpretation of St. Matt. 24:15 and Daniel 9:26-27 is strictly according to your Rapturist/Christian Zionist/Millennialist belief. It's a little truth mixed with a lot of error. The "Abomination of desolation" did happen in 70AD.

Daniel's "abomination of desolation" will have multiple fulfillments. According to Daniel's 3 references to the "abomination of desolation", it is a time when the "sacrifice and offering" cease 9:27, or when the "continual sacrifice" is replaced. 11:31; 12:11; 8:11-13.

Daniel's "abomination of desolation" happened with Antiochus IV which is recounted in 1 and 2 Machabees and which you already cited.

St.Matthew's 24:15 "abomination of desolation" refers to a sacrilege on the altar or desecration of the sanctuary of "the holy place" by a "man of sin" 2Thess. 2:3-4 or "Antichrist" 1St. John 2:18 who must come prior to the end of the world.

But what our Lord does in St. Matt. 24: verses 15 through 22 is apply this episode in the history of Israel to the future destruction of the Jerusalem within their generation. Read St.Matt. 26: 64. At His trial Jesus quoting Daniel told the Sanhedrin which condemned Him that they will see the day (in their generation) when He "the Son of Man" comes to judge them.

That abomination occurred in 70AD when the Roman armies destroyed and profaned the Temple and later under Hadrian who ordered the erection of a statue of Jupiter on the ruins. Verse 17-22 is Jesus telling the early Christians what to do when they see "the abomination of desolation" of which the prophet Daniel spoke.

Now concerning AC and the abomination of desolation, I said Antichrist isn't going to give a hoot about animal sacrifices or putting a stop to them. It's the sacrifice associated with the New Covenant worship in the Holy Mass that will cease or be replaced by a pseudo sacrifice when Satan is loosed and the man of sin is revealed. Read Malachias 1:11...that's the New Covenant "continual sacrifice" that is offered in every place all over the world that Antichrist will be after.

"standing in the holy place"....even if a future Jerusalem Temple will be built...it cannot be "the holy place" as God will not dwell there...."the holy place" is the Church of the New Covenant .....the sacrifice is the "clean oblation" on the Church altars.

These passages are not predicting a future Jerusalem Temple in which the AC will desolate. The Temple here is the New Covenant Church. If you would carefully consider all what Christ came to do, you'd understand the significance of the New Covenant Church and age which is the Millennium age.

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You have to remember where she's coming from Leauki. She's coming from that darn RCC theology which says that the RCC has REPLACED Israel. It's called "Replacement Theology" The Jews, in their eyes, killed Christ (not true) and if you notice she didn't use scripture to prove her point. It's all coming from her "tradition" not the scriptures.

Yes, I think her reply settled it.

She really does think that.

Well, I know she doesn't care what Jews think, but personally I am just angry that the Romans came to Israel and killed one of our rabbis, be he the Messiah or not.

G-d sent Jesus to the Jews for a reason and it was not to give gentiles more reason to persecute them.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

What are you going to do Lula, when they start to build the temple in Jerusalem soon? Are you then going to recant? You're going to have to. They've got everything ready to do so now.

Do you know that for years and years they said Israel would NEVER become a nation but it did? There were many who wrote that the Jews coming into their own homeland and setting up the state of Israel would never be a reality but it did. Exactly as scripture prophesied.

Same with what I've been telling you about the Temple and the sacrifices. It will become a reality because scripture is clear it will. It has to for the events to take place exactly as written. The abomination of desolation predicted by Daniel, Christ and Paul (three) will take place and what happened in 165 B.C. with Antiochus Ephiphanes was just an example of what will once again happen. 70 A.D. makes absolutely NO sense because nobody sat in the Temple and declared himself God as Ephiphanes did. Neither do the dates fit.

So you're going on RCC's opinion. They backdate everything to make it go according to their opinion. Of course they don't wish for this to happen because as far as they are concerned they have replaced the Jews.

Boy, are they in for a surprise!

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

"standing in the holy place"....even if a future Jerusalem Temple will be built...it cannot be "the holy place" as God will not dwell there...."the holy place" is the Church of the New Covenant .....the sacrifice is the "clean oblation" on the Church altars.

You're wrong Lula. Look carefully at Daniel 9:24.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city....."

Who is God talking to? A Jew, no less a very Godly Jewish Prophet. Who are his people? Gentiles? Not hardly. What city is ALWAYS called the holy city in scripture? I'll give you a hint. It's NOT ROME!

God is NOT talking about the church. He's talking as he did to all the Jewish prophets ABOUT THE JEWS. They had no idea about any church age. That's why much much later Paul called it a mystery now revealed that Jews and Gentiles would share in the promise of Abraham.

That's why the 70 weeks has really NOTHING to do with us but it's ALL about the Jews. Daniel was a Jewish prophet speaking to the Jews and Jerusalem. Even when Jesus first came it said in scripture that he came for His own, but they did not accept Him. The blindness of the Jews is a boon for the Gentiles, but according to God's plan from the getgo.

Another point is in Daniel 12:1 it says (as Christ later said) that this time shall be a time of trouble such as NEVER was since there was a nation and AT THAT TIME thy people (Jews) shall be delivered every one found written in the book (saved).

70 A.D. AGAIN doesn't fit. The temple and Jerusalem has been destroyed many times by many evil tyrants over the years. This time will be different because this time ALL the nations of the world will go against Jerusalem. THIS IS FUTURE and by reading the newspapers these days we can't be that far away.

So no Lula, your backdating these things makes absolutely no sense and your credibility is gone if you believe such things in the face of what scripture is telling us outright.

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