I'll be perfectly honest the campaign story doesnt phase me at all. I've never played GalCiv2s story, just the normal skirmish/whatever they call it on the largest map sizes.

I have a concern about magic which I'm hoping Frogboy will answer. You've said that kwe'll have crazy magic battle and also that magic is a big part. Well, to be honest I'm not a big fan of any kind of magic other than Buffs and De-Buffs. No fireballs or hurricans or any of that for me. Is it possible to play the game without having to use those things?

I like that it's not overly complex. Europa Universalis drags along at a snails pace. It's clunky and boring. Civilization 4 is strategic, but it also moves quickly and doesn't get bogged down in it's own excessive systems.

It's important to note that complex does not mean strategic. Look at simple games like Chess or Go.

That's pretty much our feeling on the matter. Intertwining simple systems in interesting ways will be more managable (from both our end and the player's end) than complex systems intertwining.

Modders should be able to go nuts adding complex systems (resource storage, multi-tiered resource production) for those so inclined to play such a game.

There are two races, Kingdoms of Men, and Empires of the Fallen. That being said there are multiple faction per race. See this:

http://elementalbeta.wikidot.com/factions

I shall steal it and call it my own.

I see on page 1 that I wasn't the only person to think Unclean Beast in the introductory picture. 

Overall, the goals sound nice, though I'll still continue to watch the game mechanics develope.  (And hopefully actually get the dang thing to work..)

Do not forget that we need to be able to understand game mechanics - that is, the interface should be clear to us. We ned to be able to learn how the system works in order to be able to plan ahead.

This means that looking at the details of a town should give us enough info to learn exactly how long it will take for that town to grow, how many units that town can train and how fast, how much gold the town generates, etc.

Once we understand these mechanics, it will be possible for us to decededly plan ahead. This allows for more interesting decision in every single way. Civ IV for example is like this. That game has very simple mechanics and everything about that game is clear as long as you are willing to study on it somewhat. Once you understand the mechanics, it is then possible to plan ahead up to the point where you can predict what will happen if you perform actions X and Y and choose the most favorable one for you.

For me, this being able to plan ahead is pretty much half the fun. I do not want to be forced to make decisions of which I do not understand the consequences. If that happens, I feel like I find myself in the backseat while the AI plays the game. I want clarity in the entire game from start to finish. I want to be able to learn the inner workings of diplomacy from studying the interface, I want to be able to learn all about town management, etc.

Btw, one game that does this extremely poor is Empire: total war. In that game the diplomacy is quantified from +200 to -200 but it is entirely unclear what the numbers mean. At -200 the AI will not declare war even though they hate the player with a passion and sometimes at more favorable relations the AI declares out of the blue. Please do not make Elemental like that.

However, where would the line between complex and simplistic be? Civ IV has a complex system if you want a casual experience. A lot of my friends could not get into Civ IV because of how complex it was. However, with a little studying and little time I find that it is not so bad, even simplistic in some regards. It is however complex enough for my tastes. Much more comple and it is hardly fun any more because you could not get into the finer workings any more.

Even so, complex in terms of resource managemtn like in Settlers and such, where your caravans need to transport resources from A to B in order to process them combined with some managent of Civ IV would be ideal imo. It would already be fairly complex while it is still managable and clear enough.

Hmmmmmm....so many delicious metaphores. Guess my NYR is out the window today

cephalo: It's funny that your frustration is often shared by us, but just on the flipside of the coin. Keeping with your analogy, beta testers want to beef up the experience, and provide lots of suggestions within the context of what they're currently playing ("More cheese, with 5 different types to tickle the tastebuds"). Then we wonder why they'd want all that cheese, since it'd overwhem the overall composition of the meal.

As a gamer, I certainly can imagine the frustration of wanting to provide feedback to shape the game, but not really knowing our full picture (hell, even we're just NOW starting the grasp the whole picture of this project). This has been (and continues to be) an interesting experiment in shaping new IP, and in all honesty, I think the 'gamer' in you would be more satisfied holding off until Beta 3 to see what's been implemented. At that point we'll be happy with the overall scope and you should have an experience worth sinking your teeth into (even if it may be a tad undercooked) 

I think that number 2 on the list, making a fun, story driven campaign is going to be extremely important, and also very hard work. Harder, I think than you guys think. I was just thinking that the reason you see so many Elves, Dwarves and Goblins in games is that you don't need to explain them. Even Tolkein drew a great deal from pre-existing tradition as you can see here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMAkJmDeRVs

If one uses those kind of archtypes, one can probably make a game without any kind of story and have it be widely accepted. With Elemental, it seems that you guys are deliberately trying to avoid many fantasy paradigms. Keep in mind though, that if you don't get the fictional part exactly right the game will fall flat. You have the task of creating a diverse and intriging fictional universe, the kind of which people spend lifetimes making! Don't think that you can just whip something up at the end of beta! You need numerous races and creatures for the player to learn about in a long, well paced process of discovery. I urge you to be very confident of this aspect of your universe while there's still beta testing left to do, because you have to get this right. Modders will not take the time to make mods for a game that isn't well liked, you can't just make a cool engine and leave it up to them.

I hope that epic spells such as volcanoes are uncommon to rare. If in the late game it is just people hurling massive "Populous-type" spells at each other, I think that is going to cheapen those mega spells. Something like raising a volcoano I think should be both devastating to the recipient, and should represent the culmination of major spell casting and research on the caster's part. I do hope that there are amazing and still powerful spells that can be cast on a more regular basis, but I really hope that the planet changing spells never become commonplace. I realize this is a balancing issue that does not need to be addressed for many months yet.

@cephalo: I am not worried about backstory, I have a feeling that is getting a huge amount of attention, even though us beta testers are not seeing much yet. I also acutely feel your frustration, it is incredibly hard to give meaningful feedback on individual pieces of the puzzle without a better idea of the rest of the puzzle. Take the economic system - new resources and other pieces seem to be getting added all the time. Back when the current economic model was selected we were told that they were going to start simple and then make adjustments based on feedback. Then in a recent post Frogboy basically made it seem that this simple economic model had been "locked in". I honestly feel that I have not seen enough about how all the pieces fit together to really make a call one way or the other if the current model was adequate. I know a lot of people were hoping to be able to steer the canon game at least towards a bit more complexity, but now it seems the decision has been made to leave that to modders. Maybe I am reading too much into dev journal posts, something I have been told in the past that I tend to do.

  So it is frustrating, because it seems like we are told that our input is wanted, but not right now, and then things are set in stone and anyone that wants it different can mod it. from a dev PoV I understand that the day comes when you have to make a decision - it just seems like Cephalo is pointing out, it is really hard to give meaningful help when we are getting the recipe one ingredient at a time, and we DO NOT have the big picture. What's the solution? I don't know.

BoogieBac, is there a general idea when new users will be accepted to the beta? I know there is Beta 2 but when will it happen? Thanks!