Elemental: Max number of players = infinite

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2415

Elemental: Max number of players = infinite

In Galactic Civilizations, we had minor races which players had relatively little control over their existence. In Elemental, 32 players will be the maximum number of major factions that the game will start out with but that doesn’t take into account of minor factions and vassals.

In Elemental, one of your abilities will be the governing ability. The more cities under you control, the more overhead cost there is to run your ever growing kingdom. At some point, it may become advisable to turn some cities into vassals. A vassal state is a city (or group of cities) that is originally founded by the player but has been made independent by that player. It becomes its own independent faction controlled by the AI. Initially, as a vassal, it is allied to you. But being independent, all bets are off of what happens in the future. It may join up with someone else, combine up with other vassals to form a new kingdom, or even go on its own to try to become a major faction in its own right through a path of conquest.

One could picture a large game where there might be dozens of vassals who form ever changing alliances throughout the game.

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Burress

Thrawn2787

Join Date 03/2007

+30

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This sounds very interesting. Thanks for the infos Frogboy!

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RonLugge

Join Date 05/2004

+50

Quoting Wintersong,

reply 10

I make a Spot check. Do I see anything?

(On topic: awesome news!! I hated those small civs whose only purpose was to give you a nice planet and maybe some techs prior the conquering.)

You roll a natural 20!

... That means you see the dragon whose jaw form the 'dark cave' ahead.

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Very good idea, and historic too. Most middle age conquests didn't result in swift assimilation like you see in a lot of games. Instead, you would conquer a region and then keep them under your thumb, funneling away resources and the best land. This feature will help extensively in keeping conquest from being the one and only best strategy.

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I better make sure I have a light. Elemental Beta might be dark, and I don't want to be eaten by a Grue.

so is that going to be an actual screenshot

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In the meantime, while updating new maps in my GPS, I tried to analyze that picture. Well I realized there is a new Impulse version available (not hidden in the picture). New Impulse looks better than the old one. I had however no luck finding the encrypted message(s) in the picture. ===> a clinic for crazy programmers

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Quoting landisaurus,

reply 30

so is that going to be an actual screenshot

yep beta 1 is entirely text based

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Yes an old windows 95 pc is required for beta access.

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Wintersong

Join Date 07/2006

+235

Quoting Servius,

reply 33

Yes an old windows 95 pc is required for beta access.

Oh man, I'm cancelling my preorder then.

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Yes! This is exactly what this type of game has needed for a long time!

I know that Civ 4 implemented some sort of vassal system, but it my opinion it didn't work that well; all the break away faction did was become a historical race, like the Japanese or British. Worse, in Alien Crossfire, the new factions that were introduced were suppose to be factions that had broken away AFTER humanity had made planetfall - yet the game started them at the same time as everyone else. I love AC, but it really needed a way to have a tiered introduction of new civs.

SO! I am very excited for Elemental.

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Quoting ,

quoting post

It may join up with someone else, combine up with other vassals to form a new kingdom, or even go on its own to try to become a major faction in its own right through a path of conquest.

Now that's the tricky part. I'm thinking that 32 major factions is probably plenty of headroom, but if you already have 32 going, and some vassal starts doing well, does that uh... crash to desktop? lol. I guess it's not the worst thing in the world if someones vassal is the most powerful faction in the game, and is stuck being a vassal. If someones computer can handle a huge map and 32 factions, people will try it!

Civ4 had a max of 18, and when people played on huge maps with 18 civs, there was some ugliness. At first, it was handled so badly that they would bring extinct factions back when someone made a vassal, and they forgot to clear the diplomatic status. So sometimes if you made a vassal, you would suddenly be embroiled in a war with all of that "new" factions old enemies!

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I have some questions about this proposed feature.

Basically, part of the fun of this game as (say) playing bad will be building a massive, world-conquering empire that corrupts the landscape and twists the creatures. Obviously the vassal system could cause a problem here if you are compelled to well ... not have a massive empire.

Likewise playing good you may still wish to have a bright and beautiful empire ... that spans the world.

If you want the empire to have a specific visual identity (e.g. unit designs, army mix, building designs) but vassals go off and do their own thing, what then?

So ... will this be configurable Brad? To what extent?

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Quoting Wintersong,

reply 34

Quoting Servius, reply 33Yes an old windows 95 pc is required for beta access.
Oh man, I'm cancelling my preorder then.

Who's pulling whose leg?

Beta 1 is cloth map based, with probably some temporary text in places. It won't run on a Win95 though, that system is too old to be supported

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Beta 1 is cloth map based, with probably some temporary text in places. It won't run on a Win95 though, that system is too old to be supported

Whoosh!

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Eh seems sorta unfair

I'd rather have this option have to be sorta a last ditch kinda thing, so if your economy can support having all that land then you can keep it (not since you have X amount of land your economy WILL fail, thus forcing vasals).

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Frogboy described, "At some point, it may become advisable to turn some cities into vassals."

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Quoting DrGuppie,

reply 40

Eh seems sorta unfair

I'd rather have this option have to be sorta a last ditch kinda thing, so if your economy can support having all that land then you can keep it (not since you have X amount of land your economy WILL fail, thus forcing vasals).

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Frogboy described, "At some point, it may become advisable to turn some cities into vassals."

Yeah it won't be easy to control let's say....100 cities / turn. Besides, I am pretty sure that we can keep the "rulers" of the vassal kingdoms happy. [Examples: Marriages, gifts etc...]

I am just wondering....if the player goes to war vs. another player, will it be possible to ask your vassal[s] to send military aid? I suppose yes, since it's quite logical...

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Oops...dbl post.

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ScottTykoski

Join Date 03/2001

+132

100 cities / turn

We're hoping to keep empires from reaching such insane sizes...I personally hope a HUGE, sprawling, glorious empire never grows larger than 20-25 settlements. But that's just me

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Wintersong

Join Date 07/2006

+235

Quoting BoogieBac,

reply 43

100 cities / turn We're hoping to keep empires from reaching such insane sizes...I personally hope a HUGE, sprawling, glorious empire never grows larger than 20-25 settlements. But that's just me

If those numbers are from factions, and you have "just" the 32 big ones and start conquering them... Also, you mean that for 32 bits systems, right?

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Every day I check this, and find no beta. I start to get sad. But seeing the picture before reading made me more sad.

I want the beta, I don't even care how broken it is (that's a lie, I'd like to be able to play through a game to offer good feeback).

The vassal idea sounds pretty good. Though I hope you're not made to, like reach 12 cities, and then discover your empire cannot support itself. I would make vassals just for the purpose of using them, a'la puppets.

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Quoting BoogieBac,

reply 43

100 cities / turn We're hoping to keep empires from reaching such insane sizes...I personally hope a HUGE, sprawling, glorious empire never grows larger than 20-25 settlements. But that's just me

But, if you have 32 races, and then say 10 minor races, 20-25 cities is obviously too small. Assuming that you spread out some before going to war, and establish, say, four cities, then at four a piece you have 128 cities, just for the main races. Plus say another five or six for the minor races. Let's just say 135 for ease of computations.

So, if you're a huge sprawling empire by turn 500, and have crushed a few players, you probably have say, 40 cities, pretty easily. I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want to create 20 vassal cities and try and stay friendly with them. Unless they were puppets, forced into trade with me of course.

Assuming you win by conquering your foes, you should pretty easily have 80 or more cities, if not closer to the 135 total. Both numbers are of course, well above 20-25.

EDIT: Qouted the wrong person the first time, also, sorry for the double post, I seemed to have gotten excited.

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ScottTykoski

Join Date 03/2001

+132

But, if you have 32 races, and then say 10 minor races, 20-25 cities is obviously too small

Oh, I'm not saying this is a realistic goal, I'm just trying to keep the 'RPG world' feeling going strong. Most RPGs have a handful of cities that can be visited...not a city every 10 tiles. The above is just my personal preference, not a 'set-in-stone' part of the design-doc

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Well, obviously this "issue" is related to the size of the maps also.

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So if you share a border with a powerful potential enemy, one possible way to help keep the peace would be for you each to contribute a border city to an independent state which would now seperate you, excellent.

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Quoting BoogieBac,

reply 47

But, if you have 32 races, and then say 10 minor races, 20-25 cities is obviously too small Oh, I'm not saying this is a realistic goal, I'm just trying to keep the 'RPG world' feeling going strong. Most RPGs have a handful of cities that can be visited...not a city every 10 tiles. The above is just my personal preference, not a 'set-in-stone' part of the design-doc

Ok, that makes more sense. I agree with cities being more spread out. But in gigantic maps, there will definantly need to be mroe than 20-25 cities.

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