utemia

Join Date 06/2009

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New medal for bravery

For the first time since World War 2 Germany has reintroduced a medal for bravery for actions beyhond the call of duty ( I am not really firm about what ajectives adequatly describe such an act). 4 german soldiers that served in Afghanistan are awarded the "Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr für Tapferkeit" for risking their lives helping wounded teammates after a suicide attack on their convoi that killed 2 soldiers and 5 afghani children.

Awarding medals for bravery seems something normal for other militaries around the world, and not really worth mentioning as something special, but here it is a novum. It is telling that he german military only had awards for serving 5, 10 or 20 years before that, but no medals for valor. Another sign that the selfperception of Germany and its military is continually changing.

It is also interesting to see how the german mission in Afghanistan is changing. May this year was the first time since WW2 that german soldiers were actively engaging (starting - I don't have the right jargon down) in battle (as opposed to waiting until being shot at and merely defending themselves, but the ROE's are a secret so that's just my guess). By mere chance a patrol had discovered a larger group of militants armed with rifles and rpg's, who obviously had planned an ambush on the germans and the afghani security personell. In the following firefight the soldiers fought offensively to eliminate the threat - and the ministery for Defense in Berlin reported for the first since 1945 that german soldiers killed the enemy in battle.

The German administration is hesitant to call the mission in Afghanistan a war, for several reasons. Calling it a war or not is not only a semantic issue, but also a legal one. The secretary for defense argues that "the taleban would like us to call it war. Then that would make them combattants and justify them shooting at us. But they are criminals and terrorists. It is not a war."

The german constitution has no passage concerning war in a foreign country - only for a defensive war. And it is doubtful that the mission in Afghanistan will be declared a defensive war (which would make the chancelor Angela Merkel the commander in chief) as long as the defense happens along the Hindukush.

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IMO they should bring back the Iron Cross (first introduced in 1813). It would be a good moral boost for German troops. It's distinctively German and even today is probably the most recognized military award in the world. I know some will link it to the 12 years of Nazi rule, but its history is much greater than that. I believe this is a very sharp looking device, probably the reason so many Allied troops took them as war souvenirs. I my self own an original Iron Cross second class 1939 design (along with an original helmet collection of most of the major Allied and Axis powers of WWII). A half-hearted medal that looks sort of like an Iron Cross is just that IMO.

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A black balkan cross, the form the iron cross has, is the symbol all german nato vehicles have painted on the side because it is easily identifiable as being german. It probably is the official symbol of the Bundeswehr, Marine and Luftwaffe, but I don't really know.

The new medal is the result of a petition to reintroduce the iron cross, but since the Nazis abused the symbol they opted for something new (I read that over 2,3 million crosses were awarded, and it is not allowed for veterans to wear a iron cross that has a swastika on it). It was argued that since WW2 the balkan cross has morphed away from its association with tne nazis and became a symbol for hope and peace in catastrophyregions and that nobody should be ashamed about that. So we have this now. It doesn't really look like the iron cross, but it does look sharp - or like a gold medal.

Yeah, quite a few GI's looted medals and naziflags etc. It is illegal to own anything with a swastika on in Germany, you have to have a special permit if you collect them or do research. West Point has the high iron cross from Hermann Göring in its archives. They can keep it lol. A friend of mine from Florida is always hounding me to get him memorabilia from WW2 (he is totally nuts about historical artifacts) but they are either not easy to find or really expensive or illegal to have.

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We have the Congressional Medal of Honor, the UK has the Victoria Cross both with a lot of history. I'm sure some people in the world might think some of these medals were awarded in unjust wars. IMO valor is valor and you have to look at the personal action involved. Whatever the politics, the fighting effectiveness of the German soldier from the Franco-Prussian War through WWII has left an impression (militarily) envied by many. Maybe the guilt of a short but terrible war will give way to greater sense of national history an pride. Of course I have the benefit of an unbiased look at the subject, strictly from a military viewpoint, I understand the feelings of those that might see it differently

German militaria (from all periods) sells for quite a premium and is highly sought in the US. I'm sure there are some forgotten warehouses in Germany sitting on a small fortune of collectibles.

BTW the West German government re-issued the iron cross to recipients in the 1950's minus the swastika, so it could be worn at appropriate veteran events. Probably a good move as I'm sure many soldiers lost their originals. I'd want to have my service medals even if the US were defeated (lol)

Below are Iron Cross examples from 1813, 1870 and 1914 (WWII version not shown out of respect for personal sensibilities). I hope any readers will now see this beyond its WWII associations and shed some light on my opinion on the modern decoration.

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Valor is valor, if it only was that easy in Germany! It should be but it isn't. The nazi past has become part of german mentality after 1945. I wouldn't call myself a conservative in the american sense lol but I am in Germany. Sometimes I hate the fact that almost nothing can be done or said without some reference to the nazis. I was born way after the war, my parents were born in 1940, and I was spent most of my life in a reunified Germany, now against a strong and reliable partner in the world. It is incredible what we have accomplished since 1945, with alot of help of the USA, our biggest and most important ally (and the Marshall plan). Instead of embracing the future so many people here love reminding everyone that Germany was evil and list in detail just what the nazis did. You also have to be careful not to sound like a neonazi when saying something like "I am proud of germany" because people just love to misunderstand you.

It is complicated here, because even if I don't want to be reminded at every turn that yes, we have a terrible recent history, I also don't want our society to act like we should just move on. Try to make sense of those opposites.. it is good for a headache or two

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I suppose everyone deals with their ghosts differently. IMO look at the past and learn from it, but don't wallow in it. Granted I don't carry the emotional baggage some people may have. As a US citizen I encourage Germany (Japan too) to step up to the plate as full partners on issues affecting the free world. The US can't nor should it do it alone. It seems like the same players time and time again... US, UK, CAN, AUS mainly (others from time to time). Germany's military reputation alone would go a long way in settling troubling issues, if its leash were removed. The EU might be a great economic power, but militarily it sucks. Maybe too many cooks in the kitchen, and the head French chief? Well, personally I wouldn't want them cooking up what they served in WWI, WWII, and Indochina if you know what I mean. Not that I'm a militarist by any stretch, it's just that too many of todays bad guys only respect power. You're nothing to them (except a target) without it.

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Maybe too many cooks in the kitchen, and the head French chief? Well, personally I wouldn't want them cooking up what they served in WWI, WWII, and Indochina if you know what I mean.

Love your metaphor - never liked french cuisine myself - it is kinda gross (except for their baguettes and croissants)

Germany's military reputation alone would go a long way in settling troubling issues

yeaahhh that's exactly it. We don't want to have that reputation anymore because almost nobody in Germany (and most of the rest of the world) associates it with positive attributes. It all comes down to the fact that Germany caused WW2 with its military might and is responsible for well .. you know the rest. That is like the damocles sword hanging above everything. Alot of people don't think we should even be in Afghanistan supporting the Imperialist Yankees - the Sowjets failed in 1980, what makes us believe that we could succeed where the russian army didn't?

And the miltary in general has no great respect. Mild and friendly disinterest is probably the best way to describe it. They are probably very good at what they do - they have the reconaissance tornados in afghanistan who aid ISAF and I am sure they do a great job. But at home, nobody cares. It's kinda sad.

The EU might be a great economic power

It was never intended to be anything else, but it morphed into something more.
I don't really know anything about the EUforce, if there is anything like that. I know that there is cooperation but that's it. It is kinda difficult to come to an agreement with 27 memberstates, as you pointed out.

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DrJBHL

Join Date 04/2002

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What it looks like.

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I'm sure some people in the world might think some of these medals were awarded in unjust wars. IMO valor is valor and you have to look at the personal action involved.

Not to be taken as inflamatory, but the truth is - leaders start wars, soldiers fight them. I agree with Nitro. Valor is not an ideology, but a sacrafice of men (and women) for their fellows.

I know that until this century both Japan and Germany were prevented from basically having anything resembling a modern day army. I am glad that is changing. The generation that brought Nazis to power (some mistakenly believing in the cause before realizing the poison) are now names on tomb stones. Almost every German alive today had nothing to do with it, and should not be penalized for the sins of the fathers (you can tell I would make a lousy Klingon).

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It is a complex problem, not easily solved with the fact tht all that were alive back then are dead now. It has to do with how the different nations and cultures deal with memory and also remembrance of the victims, perpetrators, bystanders.. The history of WW2 has become part of european identity and the memory of what had happened is kept alive and will be kept alive in the future.

I will answer more detailed, but I have to run off in a few minutes and don't have the time right now. It is an interesting issue for sure.

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