The basic tenets of modern civilisation includes waiting for Hitler to start World War 2 and the Holocaust instead of taking him out in the early 1930s?

Perhaps modern civilisation needs reform.

Or perhaps we have to change the definition of "preemptive attack" not to include attacks in response to thirteen years of attacks against coalition aircraft and terror attacks, which were _technically_ violations of the cease-fire Saddam agreed to.

I sure hope so. You guys have been exploiting Germany and Japan for a long time and it worked out beautifully for the populations.

Survivors only have that option now, since 2003. If you think survivors of aerial bombing and urban warfare were able to rebuild a lot before the invasion, you are mistaken. Everything I saw in Iraq was new.

i truly don't know the answer to this question so i'm hoping you'll be able to provide it:  how many coalition aircraft and their crews were damaged during those 13 years?

by iraq?  on whom?  911? 

the holy trinity? 

The Prophets spoke on behalf of God...so, they didn't have "to see" what they were prophecying...God did.

 The time of the Messaniac blessings is the church age which began when the Messias was born.

Malachais prophecy is God's announcement of a liturgical sacrifice, "a clean oblation", in which all men of every nationality would participate.

Lula posts:

Isaias 2:2-5, 66:18-23 and Zach. 8:23 are prophecies which manifest that the Messianic kingdom will be a universal Catholic one...ie the Messianic Catholic Church and her new and perfect liturgy.

Oh, yes, the OT Scripture has plenty to do with the Church...

As to the context, we'd have to go back to Chapter 1 and read that God was punishing Judah because of their sins of arragance and idolatry. But wait...v. 1  there is a glimmer of hope concerning Judah and Jerusalem how? v. 2:2-5 provides a vision of messianic and eschatological restoration which shows that the salvation of the world....how so? the bottom line is that he was announcing God's salvific intervention in the fullness of time with the coming of Christ.

All the OT prophecies were filfilled in Christ who proved by His miracles that He was the one sent by the Father. After His baptism by John in the Jordan, Our Lord claims to inaugurate His messianic kingdom...during His ministry He sought out not only the lost sheep of the house of Isreal, but said the Gospel of the Messianic kingdom would be preached all over the world and He established His Chruch to do that. From all this it's evident that catholicity or universality flows from the Church's very nature. This is a mark which distinguishes the true Chruch from all false claimants.

I just did...and I like Psalm 2 "The Lord hath said to me, Thou art My Son, this day I have begotten thee. Ask of me and I will give thee the Gentiles for thine inheritance."

Lula posts:

KFC POSTS

There's plenty of Scripture that teaches us that sin is disastrous for both the soul and the body.

He that soweth iniquity shall reap evils, and with the rod of his anger he shall be consumed. Prov. 22:8.

"For a wicked soul shall destroy him that hath it, and maketh him to be a joy to his enemies and shall lead him into the lot of the wicked." Eccles. 6:4

"If a just man turn himself away from his justice....all his justice which he hath done, shall not be remembered." Ezek. 18:24

Mortal sin brings with it both temperal and eternal punishment...

"But transgressors shall all of them be plucked up as thorns." 2Kings 23:6

But the fearful, the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whormongers, and sorcerers, and idolators and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Apoc. 21:8.

"To God the wicked and his wickedness are hateful alike". Wisdom 14:9.

"For the Lord thy God abhoreth him that doth these things, and he hateth all injustice." Deut. 25:16.

"For the wages of sin is death."

"Nothing defiled shall enter it (Heaven)" Apoc. 21:27 

Yes, Paralipomenon would be your Chronicles.

dismaying and wrong as that may be, it falls far short of any reasonable basis for military intervention by the usa.  by the same logic we should have invaded saudi arabia (among others) a long ago.

I don't have a problem with that.  I understand that but that's not what I was asking. 

When we come to Christ, our sins are gone....from the east to the west they have been reconciled.  We are no longer bound by sin.  We become new creatures, the old has passed away.  The scriptures say his mercy is new every morning.  Jesus said to his disciples, once you have been bathed (born again) you only have to wash your feet from time to time (our feet carry us into sin)  but you don't need a total cleansing again. 

No you didn't.  Not at all.  You gave me nothing but a bunch of your words.  Show me in scripture where ANY OT Prophet wrote about the church.  Writing about the Messiah is NOT writing about the church.   Show me in the Jewish Scriptures where the Jews were writing about the RCC.  Not the Messiah.  The Church!  Big difference. 

Not at all.  Again, show me. 

KFC POSTS:

The Gentiles received their inheritance (salvation in Heaven) by being baptized into the Church.

Lula posts:

And I list them on #108.

kfc posts #112

Rebirth, like birth, comes from God...and happens only once.

Born again, or rebirth, is to take on a new, spiritual nature, becoming a Christian. For Catholics, our rebirth (Sacrament of Baptism) is brought about by water and the Holy Spirit, the gift of Christ, administered in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Catholics reborn by water and the Holy Spirit pass from a state of nature to a state of grace, a supernatural state of being. Just as natural birth makes us a child of our father and heir in the natural world, so does rebirth by Baptism make us an adopted child of the Heavenly Father, and heir. 

I do quibble though with what is highlighted...

While sin is removed at our initial rebirth, we are responsible for the sins we commit afterward throughout our lifetime. This is something to which all the preachers of the Word of God have exhorted us to do throughout the Christian ages.

Catholics have the Sacrament of Confession where again once we confess our sins, do penance, we receive an abundance of sanctrifying grace and receive spiritual renewal, a cleansing if you will.

KFC:

I had my church's Worship Leader come on over and read through your original post and the thread; here's what she left me over on MySpace:

~~~~"The problem is there are too many opinions about Revelation. Even the great theologians who actually know the Hebrew and Greek can't agree on the true meaning of all the symbolism. Fact is about the only thing they can agree on is Revelation is full of symbolism.

Throw in there the guy who doesn't believe in Jesus and folks who don't pay attention to "kickin's" original topic (probably why she/he quit writing), and the discussion becomes pretty warped. I thought that her original post was more of a "look at the stuff that's starting to tie in with the Book of Revelation" and the respondants chose to debate the exact kind of "insect" Revelation talks about.

I didn't quite take it that kickin really thought she/he knew what kind of insect was coming, just that insect warfare was predicted to happen in the end times and these things are happening that are bringing us closer to the possibility.

The other problem is that some take Revelation literally others read it by pure symbolism and still others find a happy medium. I tend to be in the middle on a lot of hte symbolism. For instance, in the left behind books, the author thinks that John saw something that he would have recognized as large birds. But what if it's really helicopters or airplanes, but John had no way to describe such a thing. Same with the Locusts. His vision was such that he described it as locusts that sting like scorpions. I think he even described it as looking a bit like scorpions, but what if he was just trying to find words to describe something he'd never seen or even imagined before. Like insects that have the ability to kill humans.

That's the main reason I won't lead a study of Revelation. There are just too many opinions and no one can possibly be right or wrong. However, I think Christians need to read it from time to time and be familiar with it becuase when this stuff finally starts to happen, I think we'll know it."~~~

That's her two cents.

my pleasure, K; I'll probably see her at services tonight. I'll ask her if she'd mind looking that over, too.