talk about irony. 

anyone who lived in socal then surely remembers fleets of helicopters flying over us at night spraying malathion on everything and everyone.  a couple smartass morning deejays held a marathon fundraiser for "jerry's flies" (playing on both the annual jerry lewis thing and the fact jerry brown was governor at the time). 

that oughta be prettttty innaresting considering locusts are pretty benign except when they horde...and the only thing powering the horde is group hunger.  so if they aren't consuming plants nor actually eating people, the horde's gonna quickly run outta fuel and phhhhht.

nothing new need be created or be imbued with special powers when there are plenty of scary bacteria & virii kickin around just waiting for an opportunity to exploit some arcane flaw in our immune systems.  the whole idea of exotic scorpion locusts insults the intelligence and power yall ascribe to your gods (plural since it seems there's some question as to grammatical as well as physical number depending on your preferred flavor of christianity). 

without meaning to add even more confusing elements, i can't help but call attention to the recent discovery of several dozen fossilized specimens of what may be the most intimidating and largest snake to ever crawl the planet--a superboa longer than a city bus.  too bad they didn't hang around long enough to infect the garden of eden.

How do you know what he meant when you don't use the rest of scripture to interpret what he meant?

You just don't stop do you Lula?  Even after I asked you not to turn this into a CC discussion you have diliberately ignored my request.  If we hadn't already been around and around this already I would have been pleased to discuss this with you.  But we have.  And I've learned it's not worth my time to go over such things with you because you completely do not hear a thing I say. 

Again, that's what you've been told by the CC.  Christ DOES NOT abide in any Temple or Church made by hands.  That's what the scriptures tell us.  He indwells believers not church buildings. 

It is not my goal to "understand" the trinity. You can believe what you want and I don't have to understand it.

I am worried about the Hebrew Bible, a text that is of very high value to me. I cannot understand why someone would say that they base their religion on that same text and then make up new meanings of words and create a new understanfding of grammar.

Whatever "elohim" sounds like, it is a word in singular when used with a singular verb. That's a simple fact of Hebrew grammar.

There are other Hebrew words and names that sound like plural words, but it rarely implies a trinity or the idea that there is more than one of the person.

"Mayim" means "waters" and is also a female name. But the excellent actress Mayim Bialik has never been accused of being a trinity or hiding several people within herself.

"Achot" is Hebrew for "sister" and sounds like a plural (female suffix -ot). (The actual plural "sisters" is "achiot".)

King "Jehoiakim" had a name ending on "-im" but few people would argue that he consisted of more than one person.

I will accept validity of the claim that the name "Elohim" used with singular verbs implies a trinity or more than one god if you will accept that the name "Mayim" used with singular verb implies a trinity or more than one person for the same grammatical reason.

But until then Mayim is one girl and Elohim is one god.

I'd change that...But until then Mayim is one girl and Elohim is one God. Get my drift?

Sounds like you're getting caught up with semantics again Leauki. 

You're saying Elohim can be plural right?  But it can also be singular right? 

So what's the problem?  It still says..."let us" make man in "our" image.   Isn't that plural? 

We also see Elohim as plural in other parts of scripture.  Say Psalm 81:1,6 for instance.   In John 10:34 when Jesus was accused of blasphemy he appealed to this Psalm making the case crystal clear that all believers who "are sons of the Most High" to be "gods."   He said to the Jews, "Is it not written in your law I have said you are gods?"  Jesus was demonstrating that the title could be attached to certain men "to whom the word of God came" and therefore could not be any objections lodged against his claim to be divine. 

I'm reading a book right now by a very Jewish Scholar, Alfred Edersheim (1825-1889). He spent his lifetime studying scriptures especially the OT scriptures and wrote many books on Jewish Doctrine and History.   He was one of the leading authorities of his time regarding the docines and practices of Judaism in the centuries preceding and during the early Christain era. 

He brought up that the scriptures say "spirit of Elohim" in 1 Samuel 10:10.  How does that figure in your reading of the languages?   We see in Gen 1:1 that God created the heavens and the earth and his spirit moved over the waters. 

From a Christian POV this spirit of Elohim is just another way of saying Holy Spirit which is also God.

no, polytheism is only the belief in other gods.  There are no other gods and the whole of the OT Hebrew scriptures is very clear on that.  There is only one God and his name is Elohim.  You bailed big time on that one Leauki. 

So God (Elohim) isn't in cahoots in creation with other gods because there weren't any. 

What about Isaiah 9:6 when the coming Messiah is referred to as the "mighty God (Elohim) and Everlasting Father?  How can that be if there was no trinity involved? 

In many OT passages Elohim is plurally used.  Often one must go back to the original Hebrew translation to see that certain variants of Elohim are plural, although the more current writing would indicate that they are singular.  For instance:

"Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth...Ecclesiates 12:1.  In the original Hebrew this is literally thy Creators.

"For thy Maker is thine husband"....Isaiah 54:5.  Here, Maker shoud be translated Makers. 

There are triune conversations in Isaiah

"Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying, Whom shall I send  and who will go for us?  Then said I, Here am I, send me" Isaiah 6:8

In this passage there is a reference to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:

In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence (son)  saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.  But thy rebelled and vexed his holy Spirit; therefore he was turned to be their enemy, Isa 63:9,10 

Let me guess, the reference to the son is the word "son" you added in brackets?

Lula posts:

I beg to differ.

Christ is God and let's go to Exodus 25: 8-10, 27 and read that Almighty God gave Moses exact instructions for the making of the Tabernacle, the sanctuary. "And they shall make me a sanctuary and I will dwell in the midst of them. The people furnished the materials for it v. 9, "According to all the likeness of the tabernacle which I will show thee, and of all the vessels for the services thereof, and thus you shall make it."

So Moses built the Tabernacle and it was divided into 2 parts, the Sanctuary and the Holy of Holies. In the Holy of Holies MOses placed the Ark of the COvenant where he put the tables of the Law on which the Ten COmmandments were written as well as a vase filled with Manna, and the rod of Aaron. The lid was called the Propitiatory at the ends stood two cheribum of gold with their wings spread over shadowing it.

In the Holy were 3 objects...the altar of incense for the daily sacrifice, the 7-branched candlestick on which 7 lamps burned perpetually, and the table of unleavened breads which had to be renewed every Sabbath. On a table was a golden vial filled with wine. In the outer court was the brazen altar where the holocausts were burned. The people remained on the outer court and only the Priests were allowed to enter the Holy. Moses poured oil on the Tabernacle and then the pillar of cloud in which God was present descended upon the Propitiatory between the 2 Cheribum was God's dwelling in the midst of His people.

The existence of but one God means that there can be but one true religion of God. There can be but one true Temple-Chruch of God at any one time. It must be divinely instituted, authoritative, priestly Church. Deut. 17:8-12, St.Matt. 18:15-18.

The religious authority of this God instituted Temple -Chruch in matters of faith and morals must center in its hierarchy Deut. 17:8-12, St.Matt. 18:16-20 and Romans 13:2.

The highest communal form of worship in this God made religion centers in altar sacrifices, offered by priests in honor of God, as commanded by God, for the spiritual well-being of the children of God. Levit. chapters 1-7, Numbers 17, St.Luke 22:19-20 and Hebrews 8:1-4.

That one true Chruch was the priestly Temple-Chruch of the children of Isreal which operated with divine sanction from the days of Moses and Aaron until the First Pentecost Day in 33AD.

Leauki may want to perk up here....

The prayerful hope of the children of Isreal centered in the coming of the predicted Messias Is. 7:14, 9:6, Gen. 49:24-26. He came in the time Dan. 9:24-26, place Bethlehem Michaes 5:2, family and manner foretold and His name is Jesus 2King 7:12; Zach. 9:9; St.Matt. 21:9-11. Jesus, the Messias came to fulfill the Law and prophjecies of the Mosaic dispensation. StMatt. 5:17.  This fulfillment was evidenced in the life and works of Jesus, and in the principles He proclaimed, which existed potentially and prophetically in the Judaism which was of God. Also, in His institution of a Chruch of all nations in place of the Temple-Chruch of an exclusive people , the children of Isreal. St.Matt. 28:16-20.

This fulfillment was evidenced in the institution by Jesus of a more perfect, more authoritative priesthood than was called for in the Mosaic Law. It is a priesthood without genealogy, in place of the priesthood of Aaron, which was inherited, family priesthood. Ps. 109:4; Hebrews 5:1-6;7.

This fulfillment was evidenced in the institution by Jesus of a more perfect Sacrifice; an "unbloody oblation", later called the Holy Mass,in place of the bloody Mosaic sacrifices, Mal. 1:11; St.Luke 22:19-20.

This sacrifice was to be offered on altars all over the world, "from the rising of the sun, unto the going down thereof", instead of a single altar in a central place, as called for in the Old Testament. Deut. 12, Esdras 7:17, Mal. 1:11.

The Mosaic Church of the children of Isreal set forth in the Torah ended its divine mission in the first century of the Christian era, when it ceased to have a priesthood, which was followed by the destruction of the Temple with the single altar. With the ending of the existence of the Aaronic priesthood, there came an end to the sacrifices called for in Leviticus. Thus the Judaism in the OT became a thing of the historic past.

St.Paul writes,  "The Tabernacle is a parable of the time present". It foreshadowed the Chruch of the New Testament and its houses of God. That Church of Christ was to be and is an organic, visible, authoritative, priestly self-perpetuating spiritual society, which Christ promised to remain with until the end of the world.

As there was only one Tabernacle and one divine worship instituted by God Himself, so there is only one Church and one true worship of Christ in the world instituted by Himself. As there was a real but mysterious and hidden presence of God in the Tabernacle in the pillar of cloud over the Ark, so there is the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Holy Altar.  He is both the cloud and the living bread (Manna) that has come down from Heaven to give life to the world.

As the Tabernacle was divided, so Catholic churches have 2 parts. One for the priests, called the sanctuary where the altar is, with the perpetual lamp burning, and the other for the faithful is called the body of the Church. The seven lights are the 7 sacraments which are dispensed in the Chruch  and the laver is the Baptismal font and the confessional is where we are cleansed from our sins. So, you can see that the Tabernacle was a type which finds its perfect fulfillment in every Catholic Chruch.  

OK, just to be crystal clear. Catholics are monotheists, not polytheists. We believe, love and worship the One Eternal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob 

I know the Shema in Hebrew doesn't express belief in 3 separate Gods...and guess what...neither did those who "heard" it.  There is a vast difference between belief in the plurality of Persons in God which it implies and 3 separate Gods.

The Blessed Trinity is a mystery and I understand that it's an obstacle to Jewish appreciation. Again, this is due partly to the realization that belief in the Trinity carries with it belief in Jesus, the Second Person of the Triune God, as the Messias.

LEAUKI POSTS: #20

lula posts

leauki posts:

And what is freely asserted can be freely denied. The Old Testament does indeed support the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity but you evidently choose to keep yourself blinded to that fact. "You don't care" to investigate further the fact that Almighty God revealed Himself in Hebrew Scripture.  

It's vain to think the Messias has not yet come. Not only did the Messias come centuries ago in the Person of Jesus Christ, but there exists not a distinctive tribe of Judah, and therefore a house of David within it, such as existed in the days of the Blessed Virgin Mary in which a Messias or anybody else could be born.

As for the Shema, the Blessed Trinity, and having faith in God alone, my honest thoughts and suggestions are posted # 23.

well you can beg to differ if you wish but this is a case where you are not only having to go to the OT to prove your point but also you are leaving out much important scripture to prove your point. 

Have you ever heard of Ichabod (1 Samuel 4)?  His name means "no glory."  You can read during this time period that God's glory left the temple when the ark was stolen.  In 4:21 it says "the glory is departed from Israel."  From that point onward God's glory has NEVER been in a building and you haven't shown me where it has with your much Catholic commentary. 

And your long drawn out response (who's going to read all that) can be quelled with one scripture:

"Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man defile the temple of God shall God destroy for the temple of God is holy which temple you are."  1 Cor 3:16-17 

and just for good measure I'll give you this:

"And what agrement has the temple of God with idols?  for you are the temple of the living God as God has said.  I will dwell in them and walk in them and I will be their God and they shall be my people."  2 Cor 6:16

There are lots of scripture surrounding this and not one that says that God is indwelling buildings like he did the Jewish Temple of the OT.  God does not indwell church buildings Lula even though I know the Catholics believe this as they commission and decommission God everytime they move in and out of a building. 

We see from reading Exodus 25 that God did indeed dwell in the Tabernacle in the Jewish Temple (a building designed for the worship of God as He prescribed). But Malachais 1:11 was prophecying something else. I made the case in #66 that Malachais prophecied Christ's presence in the Tabernacle in every Catholic Church (a building for the worship of God as Christ prescribed).

Malachais whose name signifies the Angel of the Lord wrote in 400 BC and was the last of the OT prophets. His prophecy foretells the coming of Christ, the reprobation of the Jews and their sacrifices, and that God will accept of the sacrifice that shall be offered in every place among the Gentiles.

1:11 "For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts."

A "clean oblation" to Catholics is the precious Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharistic Sacrifice of the Mass. 

How do you interpret Malachais 1:11 prophecy KFC?