Cap ships - do they suck or what? » Forum Post by Agent of Kharma

I agree,

Capital Carrier Ships should get a buff. They cost 3000 credits 400 metal and 400 crystal + 50 logistics and research but they still onyl start out with only 2 strike craft? Is it any wonder why no one builds them?

The problem is light carrier spam, which... everyone does. Nerf the light carriers buff the capital ship carriers.

Who but light carrier stike craft fanboys (who gives a rip about balance) can argue with that?

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If this were true, you'd be building multiple ones right off the bat when a game starts. But seeing as you are a "pro" player (I've seen your name on some list, anyway), I doubt that you do that.

Would you like to revise your statement?

My statement stands. However, in order to make use of the caps, you need cruisers and frigates to up your fleet DPS. My build order for caps is situation specific, but in general, I always research cap capacity one level behind fleet capacity. If someone spams carriers, I generally go cap heavy.

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I found cap ships to be a amazing saver and pusher for the first 2 hours of gameplay until other empires/AI build up a super uber fleet of carriers.drones.nasties to defend. At that point I get toasted, even with heaps of support ships. I'm no good at micro management so often let my cap ships manage their own ability which probably is the major flaw in my workings.

I had a fleet of 5 lvl 7 cap ships once all mixed and they got minced pretty fast. I probably should retreat in times like these and normally I do but it was a KEY planet I didn't wanna loose.. too the death.. and death it was...

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A 10% buff to hull points/shields of all Capital Ships is too much to ask? really?

wow, people must love their frigate/light carrier/ HC spam.

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A 10% buff to hull points/shields of all Capital Ships is too much to ask? really?

wow, people must love their frigate/light carrier/ HC spam.

Dude. For one, stop following me. Two, what more do you want for 50 fleet points? Cap ships aren't uber-battleships, they are support ships that can be retreated before dying. Losing 1, 2, or 10 isn't that bad considering the losses on the other end will be far higher in terms of resources and fleet supply.

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A 10% buff to hull points/shields of all Capital Ships is too much to ask? really?

wow, people must love their frigate/light carrier/ HC spam.

How is a 10% boost going to turn caps from unbalanced to balanced? I just don't see how that changes a damn thing.

High level caps are monsters. Low level caps are not. The only potential issue- if you can call it that- is that low level caps are sort of crappy late game, and have a hard time gaining levels before dying. Low levels are most visible in the carrier caps, as their primary form of long range damage is affected the hardest by levels.

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Ive got to agree with many people whove commented so far, cap ships ARE useful. Ok maybe not on the first level, but there is nothing more awesome than a a few lvl 9 cap ships plowing through the enemTell me then that they arent worth 5 HCs. (though i do admit they should be a mite more powerful)

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They should be more powerful. A general 10-15% buff to shields and hull points will NOT completely solve their problem but it WILL be much better than what we have now. Also let them have a weak flak turrent for obvious reason that's been mentioned over and oveer on this forum. This is mandatory.

Primarily, another suggestion is let there be a technology that allows you to start with lv. 3 capital ships as soon as you produce them. That way they won't be so handicapped so early.

You say, oh but let them gain experience. Well the problem is, by the mid-game when there aren't any neutrals left every single battle you'll have against your human opponent might be a big one where your lv. 1 capital is going to have a huge problem surviving.

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They should be more powerful. A general 10-15% buff to shields and hull points will NOT completely solve their problem but it WILL be much better than what we have now.

And how does that fix caps? Low level capital ships don't seem to have trouble early game. High level caps don't have problems being useful late game (other than the overabundance of carriers at the moment). Buffing caps will only make them more prominent early game, or to make max caps better.

Well the problem is, by the mid-game when there aren't any neutrals left every single battle you'll have against your human opponent might be a big one where your lv. 1 capital is going to have a huge problem surviving.

How will a flat buff fix that? IF the problem, as you put it, is roughly "Late game caps can't survive at a low level", then shouldn't a solution have SOMETHING to do with helping late game caps achieve levels? And if this is really the problem, why hasn't the existing game mechanic to give capital ships levels- training- been successful in fixing this?

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still going with this one, eh?

people talking about buffing cap ships assume that there's something broken about the current system. i think alot of us disagree with that. the balance and usefulness of cap ships seems pretty on the money to me. the only real issue comes with how difficult it is to get a newly built cap ship up to a useful level in the late game.

there have already been several good solutions proposed for that. reduce cap ship level training costs and allow training to scale up to level 5 or 6 (instead of capping at level 3, or level 4 with reasearch, as currently).

that would pretty much take care of it right? high level cap ships are necessary for late game usefulness, so let them train up a bit more easily and to higher level. problem solved. no other balance changes necessary.

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Dudes, this is like the most wonderful post ever!

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But seriously!

The caps arn't built to be indestructible tanks of uber-glorious-pwnage!

I agree with...whoever said they were like large support vessels, they are are beautiful in appearence, powerful in powers, above average in armor/sheilds, but the point to them is to LEAD and AID their allies, not be some super-powerful-can-handle-a-whole-freakin-fleet-by-itself ship!

Whats the point to a game if,at the end-battle, you just have 5-20+ invincible giants slugging it out?!?!?!?!?

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I do not think that caps need a buff, and if they do, not in the manner Credit is suggesting. Part of the important early game strategy of sins (especially in a 1v1) is the selection of that first and maybe second cap ship. This is the ship that is going to get to level 6 first, and therefore, unlock its best ability. I think that the level 6 ability of a cap is a primary reason for some players choosing the free cap that they do. That is when the "boy" cap becomes a "man". This will also be the ship that is going to kill the most neutrals, and get that easy early xp. If we buff caps too much, every player will simply spam colonizing caps early game because he knows he can easily get a combat cap up at any time.

Another thing we can't do is raise the trainable level. TEC can already train till lvl 4 with research. That is high enough. I love the system in place and that it takes time and combat experience to hone one of these machines into a lethal instrument of destruction. Buffing them in this way would also negate the magnitude of a loss of a higher level ship.

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I didn't suggest a buff to capships, not one time. What I would like to see, however, is a reason to build them more (right now, I don't have a reason). I have a suggestion to create that reason, and it doesn't involve buffs.

Make it so that every time you "fleet up" to the next level you must buy another cap first. Or, maybe every other time. Or, starting with the second "fleet up." Whatever. Basically, you'd be forced to buy additional caps at some point. This way I'd have a reason to build more caps (I'd be forced to). It would get caps into the game more than they are now - at least from my perspective. I think that would work well.

However, I don't expect something like this to be implemented because it is much more than a "tweak" or "balance change." And I understand that.

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16 capship fleet will roflpwn any AI fleet with 0 casualties. That is what I like about capships, they just plain don't die if your half way decent at microing them. And onces they get higher level, they are extremely powerful. I don't like frigates since to me they seem to replaceable. If you have a frigate fleet, you will often take casualties which must be replaced. If you don't have a frig factory nearby this can take upwards of 10 minutes.

My personal favorite is the Jarrasul Evacuator. It can colonize, it can suck resources off enemy planets, it can keep ships from jumping away, and it has a powerful DoT with armor reduction.

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woot! go space whale!

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i think cap ships are fine. People stil think that they are meant to be uber powerful godships or suminwhen they are designed to be part of a fleet.

Alone they arent much good but in a fleet they are very useful.

For example the mount of firepower most of them give to the fleet is high enough to make them worth it,

They can also absorb a lot more firepower than smaller ships in the fleet, you see frigates and even cruisers goin down in a matter of minutes under intense fire, but some cap ships (like the TEC kol) can absob tons of it, this has the knock on affect of protecting smaller ships. I.E the longer a cap is absorbing heavy fire from the enemy the less time smaller ships are fallling because of it

Also their special abilities are usually very useful

plus their really cool lol

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I think it's just a question of strategy. Agent of Kharma, here, hates caps, but does fine without them. Others look at caps as holy grails. Personally, I find them very useful in battle at the start (and even the middle) of a small to medium game, but past that, they should be (and generally are) used for planet bombing and abilities (or drawing the fire with small fleets).

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In addition if you have multiple classes of cap ships in a fleet (for example a Dunov, Akan and Kol) the complimentary nature of their special abilities is awesome. The large number of special abilities will keep your fleet going and totaly dirupt the enemy fleet.

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Cap ships are designed to compliment a fleet nicely and lead one, not freaking be one. Some people build them thinking that because they are bigger more expensive ships that they will mow and steam roll through every ship that is not a capital ship. Doesn't work in groups. I don't get more than 2 for a long time. I only get them also when a have a fleet for one or will make af fleet.

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Quoting Agent of Kharma,

reply 21

Do you even play the game? The first cap, counting the factory, is half price.

See further down.

i think AgentOfKharma is referring specifically to cap-ships after the first.

Bingo.

i get the distinct impression that he's playing almost entirely rush maps

Normally 1v1 or 2v2, an occasional 3v3. There is usually rushing by one or more players in all games I play. This doesn't mean that games last 5 minutes, but I can qualitatively say that I've never had a game reach "late stages" except in long games against the AI.

I assume all "competitive" games are similar, as I can't see "pro" players sitting back for hours leaving each other alone while they build up huge uber-fleets of doom, but I could be wrong.

No, pros can build up a fleet and fight at the same time. Capitals become valuable when they start reaching high levels, if you can protect them for that, then they're great. 1-4 is never good.

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The thing is with capitals is the lack of damage. Entrenchment fixed that wiht multiple banks. THAT IS HOW CAPS SHOULD BE. But Stardock killed it COMPLETELY with starbases. A starbases of same cost can take out MULTIPLE CAPITALS. I say capitals do compliment a fleet but not very well balanced. There are about 3 per race that are good. The other 2 are crap. Normally 1 of those 3 if VERY SITUATION SPECIFIC. So you have 2 that you could even consider using as a general fleet unit. You have to rely too much on other ships dps with capital ships. The way capital ships are now are just massive tanks. Might as well kill everything around it. Buff the Damage Up the Cost. Make them worth it to take out. Not something jsut to sit there and take damage.

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kwm1800

Join Date 03/2008

+26

Quoting Bobucles,

reply 9

How will a flat buff fix that? IF the problem, as you put it, is roughly "Late game caps can't survive at a low level", then shouldn't a solution have SOMETHING to do with helping late game caps achieve levels? And if this is really the problem, why hasn't the existing game mechanic to give capital ships levels- training- been successful in fixing this?

First, I'd want to hear how a capital can survive against focus fire from 30+ heavy cruisers, other than Dunov/Overseer spamming and microing.

No existing game mechanic has not fixed this problem. The solution, as I suggested in other thread, is to make access to high-level capital ships more convenient in late game.

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Quoting wnmnkh,

reply 23

First, I'd want to hear how a capital can survive against focus fire from 30+ heavy cruisers, other than Dunov/Overseer spamming and microing.

No existing game mechanic has not fixed this problem. The solution, as I suggested in other thread, is to make access to high-level capital ships more convenient in late game.

back to my first point!

capitals arnt meant to be super-powerful-ultra-mega powerhouses that cant be killed!

the fact that you have to even BUILD 30+ heavy cruisers shows how much firepower it takes to take down a cap anyway...

so your problem: (No existing game mechanic has fixed this problem)

isn't really a problem!

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First, I'd want to hear how a capital can survive against focus fire from 30+ heavy cruisers, other than Dunov/Overseer spamming and microing.

A ship outnumbered, outgunned, and overwhelmed is going to die. That's not an issue. You are expected to take casualties in massive scale battles.

No existing game mechanic has not fixed this problem. The solution, as I suggested in other thread, is to make access to high-level capital ships more convenient in late game.

I probably wasn't clear in my post. To restate it in a better way:

If low level caps are hurting your fleets late game, why aren't you using the training system?

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