Bahu Virupaksha

Join Date 09/2004

Israel strikes HAMAS

Are the strikes justified

In today's world there is little sympathy for political struggles whose primary weapon is unmitigated and wanton attacks on civillians. In fact Islamic terrorism has undermined the sympathy many once had for the Palestenians and their dispalcement from Arab lands and even here one may probably make out a strong case that the Arab governments were as guilty as any other power.

The breakdown of the cease fire was heralded by the rocket attacks from Gaza on Israeli civiliian targets. The HAMAS cannot claim that the targets in thweir gunsights were military targets as all the rockets landed in heavily populated civilian areas. The purpose was clear to wreak havoc in the population of Israel and the State of Israel responded by launcing a series of air strikes against HAMAS targets. Nearly 300 people were ckilled. It is clear from the footage released by the Israeli Ministry of Defence that HAMAS has hidden their rockets in highly populated areas thereby that organisation is guilty of using civilians as shields. The Israeli Defence Minister has pointed out that the primary objective was the degradation of HAMAS capacity to target civilians using their rockets.

Israel is showing great courage by inflicting huge casualities on the HAMAS and it is time foer civilised nations of the world to declare war against terrorist organisations, non-state terrorist organisations and it is time to extend the definition of terrorism to include governments that allow by default their territory being used for launching terorist attacks. Israel has shown the way and it is time for the rest of the world to realise that by finding political justifications for terrorism they are in reality only encouraging terrorism. It is time to say "enough is enough" and Israel's example is ceratinly a worthwehile one.

Liberals will cry out about the unacceptable level of civilian casualities but the responsibility for that lies squarely with the HAMAS which used civilian areas to hide thweir weapon dumps.

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Thank you, Bahu, for a very good article.

One note though: Rockets from gaza came in during the "cease-fire" as well. In fact the rate during the cease-fire was higher than before the cease-fire.

300 is an awfully high number, but 250 of those were Hamas militants. And they did, as you say, hide among civilians.

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YOu still surprise me Bahu. (That is a good thing). Great article, but I dont think your revelation is held by many. The proof is in the response of nations to this latest attack on civilians. Most are silent, and some are condemning the victims - Israel.

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It was civilians that vote Hamas in, they need to accept responsibility for their actions. I'm amazed that the Israelis are not engaged more heavily. This situation has to be unique in all of history: the world expects a nation to feed, provide humanitarian aid, and energy to an enemy that attacks it any chance it can. If this situation were a married couple, it would be classified as spousal abuse.

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If someone started launching missiles into the US, don't you think we'd send a plane or two and show them their place? Seriously, I don't understand why people are so ticked off at Israel. They should be angry with the idiots who started firing rockets in the first place.

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Seriously, I don't understand why people are so ticked off at Israel.

The place is filled with Jews who refuse to die. That's surely enough of a reason for many. And while they won't admit it you will rarely find them protest military (or terrorist) strikes against Israel.

They should be angry with the idiots who started firing rockets in the first place.

Why? Firing rockets at Jewish school kids is no crime.

It's "resistance".

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Well, this kind of article from Bahu is kind of a shock. Is this one of you New Year resolutions or something?

Nice article, but does this mean that you now approve of our war on terror and in Iraq? Just wondering.

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wow!!!!!!!!! you surprised me with this article!

world wide anti-semitism rears it ugly head again, the proof is simply how the world wide press constantly condemns Israel for defending her self. It is a simple equation, Hamas launches missiles into Israel aiming for children and other civilian targets like schools and hospitals, they are touted as freedom fighters struggling for there birthright land. {ha!} Israel fights back against a foe that intentionally fires rockets from heavily civilian populated areas, Israel is condemned as terrorists.

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*sigh*

First, about "them putting themselves sourrounded by civilians", well duh. What do you expect? Having them standing on top of a hill with a huge flag "We Are Here"?

They see themselves as protector of their people agains the Israelian Oppressors (and from THEIR point of view, it is legitimate actions they are taking).

Also, from THEIR point of view, Israel never actually respected the cease-fire.

Hamas isn't an association of terrorists. Its a militia that commited terrorist actions. Not all people in Hamas are bad peoples, and more than a few would like to have it all to end the peaceful way if there was such a way in sight for them. Massive boming creating a Palestinian:Israeli death toll ratio of more than 1000 isn't something that works well to that end.

There is anti-Zionism in a lot point of views in the Arab world, and other area. But there is also a touch of over-Zionism in the American Media. Please be aware of that.

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If you're right Cikomyr, then it is ironic for them to think that Israel didn't respect the cease-fire, when they didn't even bother to keep it themselves.

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DrJBHL

Join Date 04/2002

+4207

Thank you for your (everyone here) support of Israel. You make me (yet again) proud to be part of this extended family.

I for one, believe that this time there should be no respite until Hamas abdicates, surrenders and begs for mercy.

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Wow is right. You sound like George Bush circa January 2002. Amazing. Props to you, Bahu, surprised I am.

I fully support Israel in this effort.

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In fact Israel has learnt its lessons from the Lebanon war and has taken effort to minimise civilian casualities. Every part of the world is reeling from Islamic terrorism which finds feeble justificvation in grievances real and imagined. However attacking civilians in a progrm designed to further political objectives is just not done.

Israel has shown courage and its response is certainly well caliberated and cannot be seen as a war agasinst civilians. Even the attck on the University is justified as it was a meetaing ground and training ground for Hamas suicide terorists.

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First, about "them putting themselves sourrounded by civilians", well duh. What do you expect? Having them standing on top of a hill with a huge flag "We Are Here"?

Well, the Israeli military somehow manages to put their bases in the desert outside the cities.

I guess Arabs are just not clever enough to do that?

They see themselves as protector of their people agains the Israelian Oppressors (and from THEIR point of view, it is legitimate actions they are taking).

Yes. I agree that from THEIR point of view, it is legitimate to bomb kindergardens. That's why they (Hamas) have to be sent to hell.

Also, from THEIR point of view, Israel never actually respected the cease-fire.

Yes. But Israel cannot help THEIR point of view. Israel did respect the cease-fire. Whether Hamas recognises that or not is not in Israel's power.

Hamas isn't an association of terrorists. Its a militia that commited terrorist actions. Not all people in Hamas are bad peoples, and more than a few would like to have it all to end the peaceful way if there was such a way in sight for them. Massive bombing creating a Palestinian:Israeli death toll ratio of more than 1000 isn't something that works well to that end.

If anyone in Hamas wanted a peaceful solution, they would just have to stop screaming death to the Jews and stop sending rockets into schools. It's very easy.

As for the number of victims, it would be lower if Hamas positionted their military installations outside residential areas and allowed civilians to flee. When Hizbullah attacked northern Israel we were evacuated. THAT'S why there were more Lebanese than Israeli victims of that war.

Fighting from residential areas is a war crime.

Unless it it is done against Jews.

And killing civilians used a shuman shields is NOT a war crime.

Unless Jews do it.

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Indeed.

And I wish the terrorists would keep away from civilian areas.

In fact I wish they would keep away from everywhere and just go away.

I'm not seeing how attacking Israel helps anyone. "Palestinians" are only "oppressed" when Israel is forced to do something.

Surprisingly enough no Jew has yet figured out how to make lots of money out of "opressing" "Palestinians". Yet people accuse Israel of doing it. What would be the point of "opressing" "Palestinians"?

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Also, from THEIR point of view, Israel never actually respected the cease-fire.

From Hitler's point of view, all Jews should have been exterminated.

Why should we care for the points of view of evil people?

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DrJBHL

Join Date 04/2002

+4207

1. Putting their "Hamas soldiers" (read: cowardly posers) in the line of fire would just interfere with posing for pics.

2. Their "Jihad" consists of blowing themselves and innocent Israeli civilians to pieces in supermarkets and groceries, setting off rockets (with timing devices to let them run away before launching) aimed at Israeli cities (not Bases), launching rockets from other people's back yards under threat of murder, and earning their livelihood by doing these deeds, storing their munitions in schools (good education for the future) and hospitals (hard to need one when you run away).

Public relations: here they excel at making themselves "victims". Why aren't their people citizens in Arab lands? Why are they forced to live in squalor there? Why don't they protest that?

Simple: Those govenments support them with money and weapons and "fighters".

Just ask yourself:

When was the last time an Israeli strapped on a bomb and wandered into Gaza?

Why did the Israelis (the all powerful Israelis) leave their greenhouses and factories in perfect condition when they voluntarily and unilaterally left Gaza? Why aren't they productive anymore?

Why haven't the Israelis used their Army to crush them before this?

Obviously: The Israelis are the monsters.

Count me among the monsters.

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DrJBHL, all valid points. But none of that will convince those that know how "evil" Israel is, the swastika "kill all the Jews" crowd marching the streets of Europe and Arab countries.

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I am so tired of morons making excuses for terror organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah I could scream, Israels policies are to fight with a semblance of"honor" while Hamas and Hezbollah use the press to garner sympathy, they do things like drag dead bodies from one spot to another so it appears the body count if higher than it really is, or drag dead bodies to hospitals to "prove" Israel is targeting said hospitals.

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they do things like drag dead bodies from one spot to another so it appears the body count if higher than it really is, or drag dead bodies to hospitals to "prove" Israel is targeting said hospitals.

Yes, but how do you prove these things to people who assume that when in doubt the terrorists are good peaceful people and the Jews are evil?

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DrJBHL

Join Date 04/2002

+4207

You can't, Leauki. All you can do is have good people like those at AIPAC (and others) tell the truth.

Those who are in doubt about things should listen to both sides and make up their minds.

Those who hate Israel/Jews will never listen to reason not deal with facts.

What can I say?

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DrJBHL

Join Date 04/2002

+4207

*UPDATE*

Just read this on YNET and it's really excellent...not my writing though I wish it were:

Answering Israel’s critics

Six clichés you are likely to hear constantly in the coming days, and why they’re false

Yigal Walt Published: 12.30.08, 19:13 / Israel Opinion

1) “Israel’s response in Gaza is disproportionate”

Since when is war a mathematical equation? The basic objective of any warring party is to inflict maximal damage on the enemy while minimizing its own casualties. Was there anything proportional about the US war in Iraq? Or about Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait for that matter? Or about Russia’s recent war against Georgia? Israel is doing exactly what any other country has done in the past. This is how war works.

Would a British citizen complain that “too few” British soldiers are being killed in Iraq? Probably not.

And on a more elementary note: Palestinian military inferiority is not an indication of moral superiority. Palestinian insistence on resorting to violence despite this military weakness is an indication of poor judgment perhaps – yet it is by no means an indication of moral virtue. Being militarily weak does not make the Palestinians right.

2) “But Qassams don’t kill”

Actually, Qassams do kill. Not too often, perhaps, but dozens of Israelis were killed and wounded by rocket fire in recent years. Moreover, at this time the Palestinians are firing long-range Grad rockets with even greater explosive power. Such rockets killed 2 Israelis Monday.

Yet beyond the casualty figures, the psychological damage caused as result of living under an ongoing rocket threat is immeasurable. Would anyone in the West agree to have their family live under constant rocket attacks and be regularly woken up by sirens in the middle of the night? Would anyone living under such conditions appreciate being told that “these rockets don’t kill?” Probably not.

3) “It’s all because of Israel’s siege. Israel should allow aid into Gaza.”

Israel has allowed goods into Gaza regularly throughout the “siege”. Palestinians have been able to complement these deliveries with supplies smuggled through hundreds of tunnels (of course, they would likely be able to bring in even more food had they not used the tunnels to smuggle in missiles.).

The day before operation “Cast Lead” got underway, Israel allowed dozens of trucks carrying aid to enter the Strip. On Tuesday, another 100 trucks – double the normal number –are expected to enter Gaza after Defense Minister Barak approved the move.

In short, Israel is allowing aid into the Strip (but guess who has kept Gaza crossings mostly closed thus far? That’s right, Egypt.)

4) “Why didn’t Israel just agree to renew the Gaza truce?”

First, what truce? Terror groups continued to fire rockets throughout the lull, even if somewhat infrequently, and even if the world didn’t seem to care too much. Nonetheless, Israel clearly declared that it is interested in extending the truce. Our top officials made it clear time and again.

Yet Hamas leaders clearly declared that the truce has ended on December 19th, and proceeded to bombard southern Israeli communities with dozens of rockets daily. In short, it is no wonder that even the Egyptians are blaming Hamas this time.

5) “But Hamas was elected democratically – why can’t Israel accept it?”

Although Hamas won the Palestinian elections, it took Gaza by force, in the process hurling rival Fatah members down to their death from high-rises and shooting others in the knees with the declared aim of maiming them. Some democracy.

In any case, Israel in fact “recognizes,” de facto, Hamas’ rule in Gaza, which is precisely why it is justified in attacking the Hamas-ruled Strip, recognizing that it is indeed being governed by a terror entity. Israel did not launch the operation because Hamas is in power there – rather, it did so because Hamas is a terrorist organization that has deliberately targeted civilians with thousands of rockets over the past 8 years.

6) “Israel is targeting civilians”

You mean to say that “one of the most powerful armies in the world” has been bombing Gaza for days, deploying massive air power, dropping hundreds of bombs, and ultimately killing a grand total of 50 civilians or so in the “most crowded place on earth?”

There are two options here: A) The Israeli army is not targeting civilians, or Israeli pilots suck. We tend to go with option A.

Indeed, Israel goes to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties, by deploying precise ammunition and specialized techniques. In fact, nobody in the world does this better than the Jewish State.

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I'm a Jew and by and large a supporter of the State of Israel, but allow me to express some reservations and differences of opinion with those stated here. Of course, that is only natural for our people. "Two Jews, three opinions" as always.

A little over 4 months ago, John McCain said "in the 21st century, nations don't invade other nations." Of course, he was speaking about South Ossetia, a nation with a proud history dating back almost two years. But that was an invasion by Russia and was a BAD invasion. This, of course, is a GOOD invasion and the world should if not actively support it at least not interfere.

What makes it a GOOD invasion? It is virtually guaranteed to help the Labor Party and the Kadima coalition in the upcoming elections. In a poll released just before the invasion, Labor was expected to lose 7 of their 18 Knesset seats, while Netanyahu's Likud party was expected to gain 17 seats. Barak has shown that he is not "soft" on Hamas now, hasn't he?

The Kadima or "peace" party has suffered a lack of confidence since Olmert had to step down because of that corruption stuff. The invasion is expected to help in the polls. It's not like the timing is suspect, is it?

What exactly does Israel hope to gain from the attacks? An end to Hamas? Not going to happen, any more than Israel was able to destroy Hezbollah by invading Lebanon. Let me peer into the future and tell you that what will happen is that there will be a loss of life, some key Hamas leaders may be killed, eventually a six month or one year cease-fire will be signed that will, of course, be violated, resulting in an Israeli response....repeat as needed.

For those of you with check lists, you can put a mark in the box that says "Make new martyrs."

Let me go on record as saying that nothing of lasting good will come of this. Gaza is densely populated, correct, by people living in abject poverty with no future. Is it any wonder that they hate Israel? Yes, I know that they hated Israel before, but in more than 14 years since the Olso Accords there has been zero progress toward a lasting peace. There is blame enough to go around.

Fool that I am, I once thought after the deaths of Arafat and Sharon, the passing of the Old Guard so to speak, peace might be possible. I guess that I am an optimist. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

As for ONLY 50 civilian casualties being an acceptable level, you do realize that some of the dead you are talking about were children? Obviously, someone is reading a different Talmud than the one that I read, that teaches that all life is sacred. "Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world."

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If no lasting good comes of Israel's attack on Hamas, then it is Hamas' fault. Israel isn't doing anything that any other country wouldn't do in their stead. It isn't a matter of whether or not the attack will be effective, it is a matter of whether or not it is justified, and it is.

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DrJBHL

Join Date 04/2002

+4207

Well Larry, our opinions aren't the ones that will determine much.

It's easy to take the view that "nothing of lasting good will come of this" and I agree. I took the view that after 1967 massive 'aid' efforts towards health and education should have been undertaken there. Needless to say, that wasn't relly popular.

We're downstream now. Israel cannot be a target for these 'people'. No good will come of that either.

"Is it any wonder that they hate Israel?" No, but the reason isn't poverty. You know as well as I that they hate Jews and Israelis. Their poverty makes it easy for Hamas to exploit them (the Egyptians and PLO did the same) and it's being done all over the Arab world. The Muslim angle is being used as well.

As for it being a move to benefit one party or another? I don't think you'd voice that opinion if you lived in Sderot and your children grew up in fear for eight years (and in truth, longer).

The outcome may be as you predict. It might be different also. You aren't party to Israel's plan and neither am I.

The truth is that violence causes violence. I do know that if Hamas is not controlled and continues it's violence, Israel will have no choice but to respond.

No other country would do any different....like it or not.

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Anthony R

Join Date 01/2003

+59

What happened to the good old days when Israel would use targeted assassinations against these Hamas goons? I remember when they nailed that Yassin dude. All that was left of him was his corroded sandals and a smelly shawl. Ishmal Hyena is hiding out in a bunker and letting other folks do his dying for him.

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