I know it's been argued before... » Forum Post by redphoxv

but these people are far fewer than those who won't even hear about it if it's not on Steam.

-sad but true. I know people who had that issue with Sins of a Solar empire for a while

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Occams razor, why not use both? Impulse for Stardock games and Steam for Valve games.

I don't really have a preference because I think both companies are awesome. When it boils down to it both programs are really the same thing. They are DRM that requires connection to the internet to update and play. What balances this out is that same internet connection is also used to download the entire game onto our computers, and we can do this whenever and wherever we want.

The only real difference for the end user is that Impulse installs games to your computer while Steam runs games out of stored archives.

Honestly I actually prefer Steam over Impulse, if only because Steam is more convenient and Impulse is still pretty new to me. I recently had a computer crash and lost my windows install. I had Sins installed on a storage drive and while it did still function completetly Impulse could no longer recognize or update it. Steam on the other hand was easy, all I had to do was reinstall and copy one folder and my entire library of games including preferences, settings and mods now function exactly as they did pre crash.

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Quoting Tamren,

reply 2

They are DRM that requires connection to the internet to update and play.

Impulse doesn't require an internet connection in order to play your games. You can even download the game through impulse, then uninstall impulse and still play the game. You just need impulse for the updates and multiplayer.

Does steam really require you to be online in order to play games through it?

Edit: And on topic... Elemental, nor any other Stardock game, will not be available on steam. Yeah, right now Steam has a huge following including a lot of people who play games using steam or not at all. But the problem is that Steam has no large competition. When a service has no competition then it tends to improve slower than it could and not be as inclined to work out problems or to continually improve itself. If they provide a needed/desired service at an acceptable level, and there is nobody else but them, then why dothey need to better themselves?

Stardock wants Impulse to become a major Steam competitor. I hope they succeed, because having two such services would make both of them better than just having one. It's in gamers' own interests! And Impulse will not become a major competitor of Steam if SD makes all its games available over there (it would remove the incentive for steam users to download and try out Impulse).

What would be really cool if Impulse succeeds, is if SD and Valve got together and created one unified application to handle both services. That way they could still provide their own services with their own features but we wouldn't have to have two applications that do more or less the same thing.

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Steam used to require that you did a 'prepare for offline mode' thingimy, whereas now it's supposed to just work I think. I've had a few goes with Steam games at lan parties with no internet connection, and most of the time it hasn't worked.

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Quoting Tamren,

reply 2

Honestly I actually prefer Steam over Impulse, if only because Steam is more convenient and Impulse is still pretty new to me.

I understand the feeling, but Steam is less convenient in one area: it must run for you to play your game(s). This is a constant irritation for myself and a friend, and it's why I don't buy Valve products, good as they are. It's like the cd-in-drive check, only it forces you to run it to launch the game so that Valve/Steam knows you're a verified user.

Quoting Tamren,

reply 2

I recently had a computer crash and lost my windows install. I had Sins installed on a storage drive and while it did still function completetly Impulse could no longer recognize or update it. Steam on the other hand was easy, all I had to do was reinstall and copy one folder and my entire library of games including preferences, settings and mods now function exactly as they did pre crash.

Then why not file a feature request for Impulse? A "Point to Installed Location" right-click option so that it can test and verify the version, then handle it like it was just installed. It wouldn't be too hard to add, but you do have to ask! (Engineers don't always think about usability, but that's why users are so important.) One quick hash of the executable and testing against the list should reveal the version very easily.

Quoting ,

quoting post

I want to buy this game on Steam. Tell me why bringing it to a larger audience would be a bad thing. I know Steam is a competitor to Stardock's service. There are people that will use both services and can choose whichever. There are people who only use Steam. There are people who only use Impulse. I think having it equally available to all of these people would be much better in the long run. Sure there are those that would support Impulse over Steam, but these people are far fewer than those who won't even hear about it if it's not on Steam.

I'll agree and disagree with something here, most people "boycotting" Impulse do so because they think it is restrictive and just another DRM solution. If this is the case, then why would they ever buy from Steam when Steam requires you to login to even play the game you legally bought? Impulse may be a bit piggish still, but once a game is installed it's yours. To have to login to both update, install, and play with Steam just makes it a worse platform IMO. I only run Impluse once a week or so.

Would Stardock benefit from the added exposure? Sure! But when gamers are following games like Demigod and they see it distributed through Impulse, you'll get plenty of users interested in what the platform is. Valve is already very established so their growth is slow. But Stardock? They have plenty of space to soar upwards in.

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kryo

Join Date 05/2003

+458

The great majority of people still buy at retail (and those who buy ONLY on Steam to the complete exclusion of all other venues are an incredibly small portion of the market), so no, it wouldn't be the massive boon to use Steam as some seem to think.

As well, do consider the loss that abandoning Impulse would cause us (mind you it's a store too), and the reputation damage we'd suffer in the DRM fight from going to Steam, which is a more restrictive system.

Either way, it's all moot though, because it won't be happening.

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For what it is worth there is a Sins group on Steam.

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Let's be honest though. Steam and Valve are far more recognized than Stardock will ever be simply due to the genres they're primarily based in. Valves IP's have been cover stories time and time again and Steam is now synonymous with Valve and their games. Stardock's games are good but in a genre that's never gonna be mainstream.

It's like music download services, there's only one that really matters and that's iTunes. It doesn't matter how much less restrictive or even cheaper competing services are. There will be only one. Microsoft even put a lot into Zune and just became a joke.

The argument that competition keeps people on their toes works in a lot of scenarios. I think Valve is different though. They pioneered the digital distribution scheme and are constantly working on updating their games and services. As a company they patch and add content all the time, in the case of many games, years after they've been released and aren't bringing in any recognizable revenues.

Having to be online to play should never be a problem argued. In 2008 (almost 09') when the internet is so prevalent and you're actually using it right now. If you wanna play LAN with a single copy of a game then that's something that can be designed inside the game itself and not neccesarily require bypassing legitimate and legal routes.

I guess in the end I just think that Stardock is being stubborn with Impulse and should just resign themselves to what is eventually going to happen. If Gas Powered Games with Demigod is smart, this exclusivity deal for a PC game won't be for more than a few months.

Stardock makes great games, that's the only reason I find it annoying that they limit their audience in the name of competition that's already so uneven. It's like Wal-Mart VS. K-Mart, except the companies don't suck.

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Solam

Join Date 03/2007

+16

Impulse all the way.

I certainly do not want to login every time I want to play.

ONce the game is installed I want to be able to play offline whenever I want.

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This is SD breakout year and to be honest Impulse is not even six months old. Steam is how old? Moreover I doubt Valve will put their games on Impulse so why should SD put their titles on there. Additionally there is GamersGate and a host of other DD sites and several other publishers are also setting up their own systems.

The DD wars have not even started yet in my opinion. Steam has not won by a long shot. Pioneering something does not mean you will win the game at it.

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Quoting pigeonpigeon,

reply 3

Impulse doesn't require an internet connection in order to play your games. You can even download the game through impulse, then uninstall impulse and still play the game. You just need impulse for the updates and multiplayer.

Yeah there you go, updates. I like sins but get entrenchment I have to have Impulse, there is no alternative.

I still don't mind though. I figure I will get Valve games over Steam and Stardock games over Impulse. For third party games I would prefer to get singleplayer stuff over Impulse and multiplayer stuff over Steam. If I don't have internet I won't be playing much multiplayer, so the Steam activation would be the least of my worries at that point. Having both services out there is good. Because they compete both of them are forced to become better. More importantly, they can learn from each others mistakes.

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Quoting redphoxv,

reply 8

I guess in the end I just think that Stardock is being stubborn with Impulse and should just resign themselves to what is eventually going to happen. If Gas Powered Games with Demigod is smart, this exclusivity deal for a PC game won't be for more than a few months.

Stardock makes great games, that's the only reason I find it annoying that they limit their audience in the name of competition that's already so uneven. It's like Wal-Mart VS. K-Mart, except the companies don't suck.

One of stardocks platforms is to not use DRM. And believe it or not, Stardock probably get more players to buy their games exactly because they do not use DRM services such as Steam. So saying they limit their audience would be wrong really. And to say that they "should resign themselves to what is eventually going to happen"? That is a very fatalistic viewpoint you have there. I personally do not think that it is "eventually going to happen" at all, exactly because of gaming companies like Stardock, deciding not to use DRM.

And, btw. I use Steam, I think it works, but I think the system where I install games on my pc, and it's only on my pc, works better.

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Quoting redphoxv,

reply 8

Let's be honest though. Steam and Valve are far more recognized than Stardock will ever be simply due to the genres they're primarily based in. Valves IP's have been cover stories time and time again and Steam is now synonymous with Valve and their games. Stardock's games are good but in a genre that's never gonna be mainstream.

Stardock intends to distribute other developers'/publishers' games over Impulse, not just their own. I think they already have some, like Sacred 2. And Stardock really isn't limiting its audience that much by not making its games available through Steam. You do realize that there are a lot of extraordinarily succesful games out there that aren't in Steam, right? Most people don't use Steam, at least not exclusively. You are right that in the short-term SD might lose a minor amount of customers by not making its games also available over Steam, but in the long run they are potentially boosting their customer base enormously. It's nice to see a business that actually has a long-term plan for once.

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The argument that competition keeps people on their toes works in a lot of scenarios. I think Valve is different though. They pioneered the digital distribution scheme and are constantly working on updating their games and services. As a company they patch and add content all the time, in the case of many games, years after they've been released and aren't bringing in any recognizable revenues.

Check your facts! Stardock got SDC out before Valve had Steam out. Both companies patch and update constantly, so that's a null point.

And Steam is far inferior to Impulse because Impulse doesn't require you to run it to play your games. And impulse isn't half the system hog Steam is (or so I'm told, I haven't checked for myself to be honest).

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Impulse does require you to run it at least once, which is effectively the same thing.

And Steam is NOT a resource hog unless your computer is a dinosaur and or has cancer. I could say the same thing for Impulse if you turn quick-launch on.

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Impulse does require you to run it at least once, which is effectively the same thing.

Only if you want to patch, which is not the same thing.

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I was actually talking about the initial install, even if you back up a game it still requires the Impulse software to break open the archive. And patches are another issue, I can't imagine why you would pass up on one unless it was bugged.

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Quoting Tamren,

reply 17

I was actually talking about the initial install, even if you back up a game it still requires the Impulse software to break open the archive. And patches are another issue, I can't imagine why you would pass up on one unless it was bugged.

Having to run Impulse when you want to install or patch a game is not remotely similar to having to run Steam every single time you want to play a game. Not in the slightest.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

If you come from anywhere near a Creative Commons or GNU Public License POV, Stardock's business model will never fully satisfy you because Mr. Wardell et al firmly support copyright as we currently practice it. And on the cranky side of the debate, I formally reject copyright except in terms of rights of attribution and I loathe the fact that modern PCs assume I should have a persistent, high-speed net connection that they can use at will.

That said, Stardock are *much* closer than the average software-making bear to having a business model that substantively reflects respect for each customer as one side of a long-term, two-way relationship.

I broke down and installed Impulse recently, partly because GC2 is my game right now and I like my updates, but maybe mostly because I'm shamelessly stoked about the Elemental project and Stardock have married it to Impulse. I probably also 'gave in' because I used to teach US civics, and if there's one single thing I ever hoped all my students would know, it's that unless you want to be a murdering dictator, you gotta learn to accept compromises.

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Quoting pigeonpigeon,

reply 18

Having to run Impulse when you want to install or patch a game is not remotely similar to having to run Steam every single time you want to play a game. Not in the slightest.

When the Entrenchment expansion for Sins comes out I will be forced to download and install Impulse if I don't have it already, connect Impulse to the internet, log into my Impulse account, download and install sins, then download and install the Entrenchment expansion through the Impulse software.

To play the Half Life Episode 2 expansion I have to download and install the Steam software if I don't have it already, connect Steam to the internet, log into my Steam account, download Half Life 2, and download Episode 2.

--

My point is, to get a game onto my computer and run it I will have to go through one of those processes and the Steam route is actually shorter. I have no other option to play Episode 2, just as I have no other option to play Entrenchment. You can argue all you want that Impulse is less restrictive but both programs make you jump through the exact same hoops.

The situation is going to be exactly the same when Elemental and (insert unknown yet inevidably awesome Valve game here) both come out on competing platforms.

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What a waste. If i want a game or expansion, "details" like Valve or Impulse will mean nothing to me. If i really want a game, the only excuse not to get it, it's not to have the money to buy it (ok, and DRM).

That i don't need to the program whenever i want to play is for me a great advantage. So for me, Impulse feels better but not perfect. But if Valve had a game i was interested in (it has some but i already own them in physical copies, like Dawn of War), i would had no problems instaling/using it the same i don't have problems buying clothes in one shop once and in another later.

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Quoting Tamren,

reply 20

Quoting pigeonpigeon, reply 18Having to run Impulse when you want to install or patch a game is not remotely similar to having to run Steam every single time you want to play a game. Not in the slightest.

When the Entrenchment expansion for Sins comes out I will be forced to download and install Impulse if I don't have it already, connect Impulse to the internet, log into my Impulse account, download and install sins, then download and install the Entrenchment expansion through the Impulse software.

To play the Half Life Episode 2 expansion I have to download and install the Steam software if I don't have it already, connect Steam to the internet, log into my Steam account, download Half Life 2, and download Episode 2.

--

My point is, to get a game onto my computer and run it I will have to go through one of those processes and the Steam route is actually shorter. I have no other option to play Episode 2, just as I have no other option to play Entrenchment.

But you're completely missing my point. Yes, both clients force you through almost exactly the same steps to download and install a game. The difference is that Impulse lets you install the game, so that the full game is on your computer all the time. I guess it's a trade-off - running a game for the first time through impulse takes an extra 15 minutes (because you have to actually install the software once you download it). But because of that, you can play the game whenever and wherever you want, even if you uninstall Impulse all-together. To play a Steam game, you have to launch Steam every single time you want to play, and be connected to the internet.

Quoting Tamren,

reply 20

You can argue all you want that Impulse is less restrictive but both programs make you jump through the exact same hoops.

Hopefully you see now why that's not true. Impulse has one extra one-time hoop to make the game playable (installing the game). Steam has an extra hoop or two that you have to jump through every single time you want to play the game. Don't get me wrong I've got nothing against Steam - I've used it before and it works pretty well, but I prefer the Impulse model because it gives me more freedom. For example, my internet has gone down for days at a time, locking me out of any Steam games. And trust me, it's pretty frustrating to not be able to play a single-player game because your internet is dead.

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I guess it just doesn't bother me. Steam is lightning fast on my computer and if I didn't have internet access I would be reading a book. Both systems are equal in my eyes because they make you run the exact same starting gauntlet, even if the race is easier on one side of the track.

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The great majority of people still buy at retail (and those who buy ONLY on Steam to the complete exclusion of all other venues are an incredibly small portion of the market), so no, it wouldn't be the massive boon to use Steam as some seem to think.

thats true, its just I ment I know a few bums that were like 'eh, I don't feel like running to the store and I can't get it off steam.

I think as impulse gets more games on it (aka, the market becomes larger) then this will change. Right now there are not many titles on it yet so only a few people have it.

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The vast majority of popular games on Steam are all multiplayer. So the phone home every day thing isn't much of an issue. It doesn't matter if you can't log in to use team fortress 2 because you wouldn't be able to anyway.

I think Impulse will pull to the fore as soon as it increases its stock of singleplayer games. I actually only own two non-valve games on Steam. the first is Mount and Blade which I recieved a cd key for so I can install elsewhere if I want. The second was Starscape which is on Impulse but I didn't know at the time I bought it.

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