Ilumino

Join Date 11/2008

RPG Elements

Frogboy stated:

The key to that is to have distinct paths to victory that are truly unique (far more so than in GalCiv) that are action-driven (and by action I mean the player is doing "stuff" on the map and not just making treaties or whatever).

So does this mean, that the player will be able to take his wizard or another hero and undertake quests in the world? How detailed will these quests be?

This is one of the main things I liked Master of Magic for. It was neat to run into a ruin or cave and be given a message about exploring it. For a short moment it felt like I was no longer playing a strategy game, but a role-playing game. It was refreshing and a nice break from straight strategy.

I'd like to see Elemental to take this even further. I think it would be great to take your hero into a real dungeon, complete with traps, monsters, and treasure. It doesn't need to be something huge or terribly detailed, but something to give it a D&D/RPG feel to the game.

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age of wonders (the original) had that it was something that I missed in the sequals

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I'm still hoping that "I" don't have to be in the game at all.

But I'm all for RPG elements, I'm just saying that whomever "I" am, "I" won't be in the game.

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Yeah, that sounds like something i'd really like to see. Can't wait!! *giggles*

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Lord Reliant

Join Date 03/2006

+39

Quoting ,

quoting post

Frogboy stated:

The key to that is to have distinct paths to victory that are truly unique (far more so than in GalCiv) that are action-driven (and by action I mean the player is doing "stuff" on the map and not just making treaties or whatever).

So does this mean, that the player will be able to take his wizard or another hero and undertake quests in the world? How detailed will these quests be?

I think you came up with the answer- I imagine there will be a questing system of sorts that create objectives. So, in addition to taking care of your empire, diplomacy, and armies, you'll have to do specific things. Some of those things, I imagine would be:

Messenger tasks (get X at Y and bring it to Z, take the One Ring to Mount Doom)
Military conquests (defeat X, take over city Y, recruit a certain number of creature Z)
Exploration (map out territory X, send a hero to explore cave Y)
and then other sorts of mini-goals like diplomatic, cultural, or economic

These things would be sweet for the campaign, but if there was a way to incorporate them into the regular game, even better. Perhaps along the lines of the watered-down diplomacy in Sins, or maybe you could visit a sage to get a quest.

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right, like in Warlords III (iirc)

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Quoting Lord Reliant,

reply 4

Yeah, I'm referring to this happening more in "sandbox" mode. I'm sure it could be done with scripting in the campaign, but would be truly amazing, if they could make these kind of side-stories and quests show up in a random world.

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Great ideas. I like to have non-linear quests and more.

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The richer the RPG element of the game, the better it will be for all, in my not so humble opinion.

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That was one thing I really liked about Crusader Kings, was that you had a stake in the development of your dynasty. I really am looking forward to EU: Rome Vai Victus, as I want to see characters in your court have their own agendas while you squabble with the senate over how best to conduct foriegn policy and deal with disloyal governors. That kind of personality system combined with heroes and your own Avatar would make things very entertaining. I'm not expecting it, but I can always dream.

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Quoting lwarmonger,

reply 9

Agreed. Having characters come alive in a strategy game is not something that is easy to do, but has the potential to be great fun, especially if the character is given some, but not all control over character development.

That was one thing I really liked about Crusader Kings, was that you had a stake in the development of your dynasty. I really am looking forward to EU: Rome Vai Victus, as I want to see characters in your court have their own agendas while you squabble with the senate over how best to conduct foriegn policy and deal with disloyal governors. That kind of personality system combined with heroes and your own Avatar would make things very entertaining. I'm not expecting it, but I can always dream.

I do as well. I'm a big huge fan of CK. I hope the next project for PI is CK2 but I'll settle for EU:R-VV for now. I really, really hope that Frogboy looks long and hard at such a system for E:WoM. I think it will be the difference between a great game and a genera defining classic.

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The system in CK and Rome was pretty poor IMO. You couldn't care less about the leaders and it was totally random what they did, with no input or reason to it.

The idea is a good one, but it was implemented very poorly. Especially in Rome. CK had a slightly better system.

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Yeah, Rome's system was fairly lacking as you weren't connected to the characters at all. This is something I hope VV will solve, much the way Deus Vult solved a lot of problems for CK.

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Quoting Tiavals,

reply 11

The system in CK and Rome was pretty poor IMO. You couldn't care less about the leaders and it was totally random what they did, with no input or reason to it.

The idea is a good one, but it was implemented very poorly. Especially in Rome. CK had a slightly better system.

That is where mods come into play. And yes I agree there are some issues with it and have been for some time, but, despite the glaring failures and faults, I still find the system the best thing going for what it does.

In short, I have always want the vice and virtue and traits system form Total War integrated into to the linage and family system from Crusader Kings coupled with the AI combat psychological model system from Close Combat for a title. I do believe that SD could effectively blend those systems together properly given Frogboy's AI programming skills to create without a doubt the best player & AI avatar characteristics system ever implemented.

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@Spartan

Traits would be the first thing i will disable when i get Elemental

I approve the RPG orientation but i dislike the too much random x pokemon x sims way it's done in CK or Total War as the probabilities are too badly handled. I got a character with twice inbreed trait in CK.

So i would prefer the RPG-Console oriented heroes, unique heroes with predefined grow chart acquiring skills, qualities and flaws.

Upon leveling up a hero can also either increase the effect of a quality/skill or decrease the impact of a flaw but never to the point of negating the effect of that flaw.

That give some flexibility while limiting the outburst of randomness and also it can give some real unique flavor for each hero like in MoM.

Another plus would be the possibility to submit players created heroes so we would not be limited to a given set of heroes like MoM.

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@McFungos - Don’t lock the system into its current incarnations. Simply look at the system for what it could be...

For example, the initial traits do not have to be random. They could be selected as part of an avatar creation process. You could get them along with racial picks like in GC2. There could also be a multitude of triggers for acquiring new one or removing old ones based on action. There really does not have to be any random element to it if properly implemented, unless that is something that is wanted, and it could easily be worked into such a system to begin with.

Consequently, you would get maximum flexibility, allowing the creation of highly unique avatars, without any real limits on them, other than the ones you decide to have via your actions and limitations of programming. Such a system could also be enable to affect hero units and other units of note. The sky is really the limit with regards to where it could go, if done properly.

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Quoting ThreeKings,

reply 7

Great ideas. I like to have non-linear quests and more.

I agree, especially great would be if the story elements of the game were rich and highly unpredictable from game to game. Possibly 'procedurally generating' the background stories, quest hooks, quest branches so each instance of the game had a completely original story?

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@Spartan

Sorry to be more oriented to the MoM x Valkyrie Profile way to conceptualize heroes.

I understood you desire to shape heroes in game but players will eventually know the "Triggers" that give this or that trait and will put themselves in situation to get for their heroes the desired trait. In fact they even may rotate their heroes so everyone will get in situation to get a given trait. In overall, one can manage to get his heroes with the same traits with enough undestanding of the Metagame

A good compromize is to have some traits that are in-born of each heroes and which can't be acquired in game. Players will progressively discover those in-born traits and flaws as their heroes level up. The others traits being trigger oriented with a % of chance to getting them or not. Some people will re-load & re-trigger ad nauseam until they get a trait.

How the in-born traits should be handled is another question Randomness or Predifined set or mix of both. I would chose the mix-of-both.

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Sure that is possible but how would that be any different then following the same strategy every game? I for one like to try different things and variety and if there are enough traits and triggers it would be a very long time before someone just playing the game (not looking at the code triggers) would learn a sufficient amount to plan accordingly. Additionally when such a thing would become common that is what mods are for. See everyone is happy and Frogboy is very rich.

Regarding the in-born traits suggestion, I thought I covered that element already. I'm sorry I was not clear enough. They could be picked at avatar creation and option could be set for a mix of preselected ones or specifically developed trees.

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@Spartan

Most obvious triggers can be easily uncovered.

Winning 1 VS 2 => either good defender or good attacker...

Killing a lot of XXX => XXXSlayer trait...

Heroes spending X turn in a city with a church => Devot trait...

I spend some time playing Trading Card Game and mastering a Metagame can be done. Not be me for sure but it can be done.

Yes, mods for sure can save the day but i would still prefer unique moddable heroes with fixed set of traits + in-game traits to preserve the diversity of heroes.

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Quoting McFungos,

reply 19

@Spartan

Most obvious triggers can be easily uncovered.

Winning 1 VS 2 => either good defender or good attacker...

Killing a lot of XXX => XXXSlayer trait...

Heroes spending X turn in a city with a church => Devot trait...

I spend some time playing Trading Card Game and mastering a Metagame can be done. Not be me for sure but it can be done.

Yes, mods for sure can save the day but i would still prefer unique moddable heroes with fixed set of traits + in-game traits to preserve the diversity of heroes.

Again the system I'm proposing can easily accommodate such a setup if wanted as well as a total random experience if wanted.

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@Spartan

If you can spare me the aging part + the pokemon/sims part of CK and Total War and add some moddable/fixed part in heroes. I will support you.

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Quoting McFungos,

reply 21

@Spartan

If you can spare me the aging part + the pokemon/sims part of CK and Total War and add some moddable/fixed part in heroes. I will support you.

Sadly I have never played Pokemon or the sins so I'm not 100% clear on what elements you dislike with regards to those title. The aging thing can also be an option during setup or at the very least a spell based thing. On the modding aspect I would assume SD would make things open for us since moddability is a big huge part of the plan for the game from what I understand.

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