It was a good rant while it lasted, Ock!

What do they do when they promote 50+ people? Does that affect the number of people who will promote next go?

Yup, that's a good example of "military intelligence". When it comes to technical MOSs rank is a lot less about the mission. It's not like the First Chair Trumpet is necessarily the highest ranking in the trumpet line.

Yeah, I see where that SNAFU would affect the band MOSs for years. It was probabaly years before another NCO slot opened up.

For parachute riggers, the average was 1 E4 to E5 promotion every two years. That's what happens when you're in an MOS with only 1800 slots, 1 E6 and E7 per platoon, and only 4 E9s in the whole Army.

It works out because it's one of the few MOSs in the Army where the mission is done by the E3 and below. E4s usually don't pack parachute, but become 'in process inspectors'. It's also one of the few MOSs where the E4 and below are responsible for the lives of 125 people every day if they are in a personnel pack platoon; Millions of dollars worth of equipment if they are in Aerial Delivery (preparing vehicles and equipment for parachute drop).

The Army actually wanted riggers to do their first tour then either get out or reclass.

The liberty issue was a major anger generator to me back when I was a Marine.

I had spent two years as a Marine Security Guard on an Aircraft carrier and when I wasn't on duty, no one expected to see me when we were in port.  This was the rule in foreign countries and the US.

Then I went to a Line Infantry unit as a Junior NCO and while on deployment to England, France, and Spain, (Where english is often spoken) We had to be back on ship by 2300 hours. I really enjoyed having more responsibility and less freedom.  That Battalion Commander and his Subordinate commanders were fairly clownlike in their choices.  

BTW< thanks for bringing up bad memories Ock!

 

And the Ahkio with 4 med rucks and the grounnd mounted TOW system were pulled by us on Snowshoes while wearing our large rucks and carrying our personal weapons.  

(Up and down the mountains of Norway, Not just up them    )

 

Unless he says "Now get in the kitchen and make me dinner" in which case, Game Over. 

It's also not really that great an idea. I worked with a lot of Commissioned Officers, I saw some great, some piss poor and some just in between. Prior enlisted experience isn't what separated the great from the rest, in fact I knew some who were worse BECAUSE they had spent time as enlisted and NCO.

Some were worse because they had a "I got screwed, now it's my turn to do some screwing" attitude. Others were worse because they never seemed to forget that they weren't NCOs anymore, so didn't let the NCOs do their job. Others were worse because, once they got their commissions, they found out that being commissioned isn't all it's cracked up to be (in fact, I knew a few who resigned their commissions and enlisted again later.

The stereotype that Officers who spent time as troops is just that... a stereotype.

Ted said it...Geez amened it, all that's left for me is to "third" it.

yes, if you want to test the character of a person, it's not adversity that reveals this so much as giving them power.

Asaxygirl..congrats on your commission! Woot!

I am gonna kinda meander here, speaking from our experience, so it may get a little long...



This is a correct for the AF.

Air Force and Navy do things waaay different when it comes to getting a commission. I am reading this and thinking, WOW, that's not like the AF at all.

In the AF you are either enlisted or an officer. There are no in betweens, no way to jump from one to the other built in to the system with "time in service", no jobs which require you to be enlisted first before moving up to be an officer. You are either one or the other, period.

To be AF enlisted, you sign on the dotted line so long as you have a hs diploma (GED's are not taken 99% of the time), no criminal record, pass the physical, and score AF minimum on the ASVAB, etc.

If you want to become an officer after being enlisted, you have to get at least a Bachelor's degree, an impeccable prior service record (meaning perfect ratings the entire time you are enlisted), no paperwork ever (LOCs LORs or Article 15s), at least three letters of recommendation from a Col or higher (which includes the current base commander where you are stationed), plenty of community service, pass the AFOQT, and then you apply to the commissioning board, which turns down roughly 95-98% of prior enlisted applicants who meet all this criteria (there are only so many slots for OTS Lts, covered below).

Except for a five year span in the early 90's (when they were taking about 50% with all the above), the board tried to keep prior enlisted officers at about 2% of the new Lts commissioned a year. It is typically very difficult to be chosen, no matter how great your enlisted career.

The reason there is some angst in the AF is because it is more difficult for a prior enlisted person to become an officer than it is for a kid right out of college. (Which seems like it should be the other way round but what do I know?)

The AF takes first pool out of the AF Academy grads, they fill Lt slots first, all other military schools (no matter how prestigious)are classified as ROTC, they get next dibs on LT slots and then OTS is the third pool.

OTS is primarily for someone with a degree who didn't go to ROTC but decides they want to play, (like the medical fields which are unique all to themselves, but the rank thing still swings the same and they need military training...marching, uniform, rank structure, etc). A very small percentage of OTS cadets are prior enlisted.

So when an officer in the AF says they are prior enlisted, it says a whole lot more about them (meaning you know they at least met the minimum requirements posted above and were an outstanding enlisted troop when tested) than say someone coming right out of college into the AF after taking the AFOQT.

And an issue between officers in the AF is...PRIDE, because it is so difficult to get into the AF as an officer. (Not to imply the other services aren't as hard, I don't know.)

AF Academy guys think they went to the most elite AF military college in the country...and they are right. It's hard to get in, tuff curriculum, etc. And since its an AF academy, well that automatically makes them better than all the other LTs. Right? Riiiight.

Then you get guys who come from other prestigious military schools, but the AF considers them ROTC. They get insulted with the title, and want as much or usually more cudos than the AF Acad. guys,,,which ain't happening...its the friggin AIR FORCE. This second group are in fact the same as the guy who goes to any local college and takes military classes while working at Pizza Hut. They are all equal in the second pool.

That's hard for the new Lts to stomach when they have a lot of pride about their military school being the "best." But face it, military "school" isn't the real deal so the whole thing is retarded imo. (I mean rival schools? We aren't in high school anymore fellas.)

Then you have the OTS guys, specifically I am talking about those who are prior enlisted. Most of them are way ahead of the game because of their experience, (in OTS they are squadron, wing commanders)because they don't have to learn the ropes and can help the kids right outta college learn everything they need (or try too, ha).

In fact, my husband is a buddy of an old commission board Col. He says they let 2% prior enlisted go to OTS, not because they wanted them to be officers necessarily, but because they are the biggest reason the kids (who never took ROTC and didn't know squat about the military) could make it in 6-8 weeks of training, before literally becoming a leader in the military. That, along with OTS staff which has a significant enlisted body training the cadets, help prepare the total military virgins....

The first two pools, AF Academy guys and the ROTC(other military school) guys are bragging, fluffing feathers, flashing school rings like its a football game on a Friday night.

Part of the third pool (there are ALWAYS exceptions) specifically the prior enlisted, move right past the spatting college mascots, heh, and into the job. They are often seen as "favorites" because many are given slots that are two-three pay grades higher than Lt....not the pay though..pretty smart of the AF to do that though if ya think about it..giving Lt salary for a Cpt or Major's slot.

Saves money.

But there aren't enough prior enlisted to threaten the officers with more rank, so usually the prior enlisted guys do it, but kinda grumble about not getting paid for the work they do....hahahaha...double edged sword.

All this stuff, causes some tension. And some very funny discourse. In general Lts don't get a lot of respect in the AF...not because they are young and inexperienced...but because they are PRIDEFUL. They want to be in charge. Argue about who is a better leader using the college they attended as reason they should be in charge and looked up too.

Seriously.

Which imho is a good sign they shouldn't be leading anyone.

So commanders and other higher ranking officers take it upon themselves to shoot the pride out of um...and the more prideful they are, the bigger the fall.

When I was enlisted at every single commander's call we had a diff Lt who had to bring coffee up to the commander during our BRIEFING and quote some dead poet, at least three verses..and if they messed up...WHOA, they were reamed in front of everyone. Whatever they took the most pride in, the Academy, their college, their IQ, whatever, it was dogged to the bone.

I remember one of them was in some prestigious military school and commissioned by the President of the United States....

Didn't matter. In fact, I think he was handed his pride for four straight years...he was getting out of the AF same time I was...and he planned on being a General..told us all about it adnauseum.

Can you imagine being insulted like that when you have a "prestigious" military school under your belt/AF Academy and there are airman in the room who are literally 18 years old and right out of high school laughing at you?

Prior enlisted Lts almost always are exempt from this...not because they are prior enlisted and therefore untouchable, but because they are usually smart enough to remember this happening to their Lts, and know the whole pride thing is an issue that is handled in a cut throat kinda way.

So if ya ask me...and ya didn't, the biggest problem with LTs in the AF is not their inexperience, its pride...you can't be a good leader when its all about you.....and if they aren't LUCKY enough to have a commanding officer break their pride, they usually don't make it and end up not being promoted or resigning their commission. Because once they are a 6 year captain, pride usually is a career ender (unless you are in a field the AF really needs and can't kept filled, then you can be a little cocky..which is why so many pilots get away with murder and are considered the "top" of the officer food chain. That's a whole nuther blog.

What really is RICH to me and makes me laugh out loud....

More Lts are commissioned into pilot training from regular Joe colleges who happen to have an ROTC program than from any other single institution of training...and they are the most looked down on by other LTs in the beginning (they don't usually brag about their Joe Normal local college and many don't have a college ring...heh)...BUT the highest ranking Jobs in the AF...are reserved for PILOTS...so in the end, they get the last laugh, and the best rank.

Cracks me up.

So I know you care NOTHING about all that...heh...sorry I am on information overload and wanted to share.

As far as officer's being good or not...I think that rolls both ways. Enlisted or officer, the rank and the job is only as good as the individual serving. I don't think its appropriate to bash an officer for being an officer anymore than it is to bash an enlisted man for being enlisted.

I have an enlisted gal pal who used to send me email funnies about officers all the time. Her husband is a Chief. So I sent her a funny about a Chief...she got really pissed.

Personally, I don't think she should dish it out if she can't take it.

Everyone likes to believe they are essential to the military, their job is THE job.. But the truth is, while everyone is important, there isn't a single individual in the military upon whose shoulders that service rests. We're all replaceable.

IMO when a Lt realizes that, then he's ready to be an 02.

But then..What do I know?

Great article, Tova!

This is what I was thinking as well. I agree

Because of age and time it's alot easier to make the higher ranks for an Academy or ROTC over an NCO.



I don't agree with this at all. Been a mom to a kid who bravely hung on while watching his classmates drop like flies during his four years at a prestigious but not "The Academy" military school. It's not like any local college at all. In fact they COULD NOT hold jobs during the year. They started with a class of 400 and ended barely with 200. It was a brutal 4 years. Check into the Rat Line sometime and see how very unlike it is from other ROTC schools. They had to literaly crawl thru a mud trench and up a hill to break thru the line while the upperclassmen kicked them down a hill. When they made it up the hill, covered in mud, they were no longer considered Rats. They broke thru the line. They were treated like rats all up until this very memorable day.

I knew one mom who called the school and demanded they feed her son. Of course she couldn't give his name. All our sons lost a drastic amount of weight that first year. It was like prison. It looks like a prison. Cement everything. Not cushy at all. They slept on wood. It was gut wrenching for a mom to know (or not know) what was going on behind those doors. It's NOTHING like other ROTC schools by a long shot.

Also here's a question......Does the Academy protect their own?

Of course they do. My son, a VMI graduate, has already met many of the higher rankers who graduated VMI all the way up to General in his area. One VMI graduated General has already offered my son a job on his staff. They protect and watch out for their own.

Officially while the AF Academy does have the most presteige VMI has also for years been fighting to be considered on equal standing and for the most part are considered just below the Academy in standing. I've heard it's said VMI is more the blue collar to the Academy's White Collar grads.

In the class of 2006 for VMI there were 20 pilots commissioned for the AF alone some with 2.1 GPA's. There were maybe 7-8 for the Navy. Basically whoever wanted a pilot slot got one. My son had a pilot job lined up for him but he didn't want it. For most ROTC programs around the country outside of the Academy and VMI you had to be in the #1 slot to be given this same status. Certainly not 7-8 or 20 would be considered.



I understand a bit what you're saying but after seeing what my son went thru I understand the pride with the ring thing now. They deserved it after the hell they went thru making it all the way while watching many who did not. It was tough. Quite often they puked their guts out after being forced to drink warm milk and run up and down stairs...just for fun.

The Ring is their memory stone. To me Tova it's similar to the OT Fathers who would pile rocks up after a battle as a memorial to what they had gone thru. It's a precious reminder to them as well.

It probably is similar....not sure really but it's much longer than basic training. That's why so many drop out. While one may be able to endure six weeks or so of basic...... to endure months and even years of it is very hard. It's not until they're seniors do they really get to breath safe. It's a very long three years. Some make it until their junior year and then drop out even. That's tough. Some go home that first Christmas and never return.

Just the sweat parties alone sounded very barbaric to me. In fact GMA with Diane Sawyer did a segment on VMI when Brian was there. She felt really sorry for the rats. They were not allowed to look at their food while eating....that's why they lost so much weight. And if we sent them goody boxes (like I did my other two) they had to do pushups for every cent of postage. So if it cost $6 to mail the pkg they had to do 600 pushups to earn the box. We didn't know this until AFTER they got their first packages. Boy, did we feel awful sending them out.

As a mom, it was awful knowing or not knowing exactly what was going on. All the moms were basket cases. This is not the case in ROTC progrmas in other "normal" colleges.

Eh, I do not know much about the military, just what my father told me. He was a Ranger. He went from being enlisted to the rank of Captain. He told me he also built nuclear and biological weapons somewhere in Colorado. Hippies shut the joint down.

Father's Advice:
Do not join the Army. It is a lot like playing World of Warcraft with your life. You will always have to listen to some dimwit who knows far less than you do, just because he has been in longer.

Go to a good school, get a good degree, and become one of these professionals I have to kiss ass for.


--------------------

You know, one of the characteristics that made Napolean Boneparte such a great leader was that he slept on the field with his men.

Johns Hopkins waitlisted me. I went to Emory.