I've done some more testing that surprised me regarding LRM's VS C.Carriers.

First I'm trying to find a conversion factor that works across all units as far as cost effect in battle.

I'm assuming the Metal is worth 150 credits per 100 and crystal is worth 175 per 100.

So A dicipline is 310. (250cr + 40 Metal = 310)

A vasari Assailant = (400cr + 65 Metal (97.5) + 45 Crystal (78.75) = 576.25
A Advent C.Carrier = (450cr + 100metal + 50 crystal) = 687.5

10 Vasari Assailants = 5762.5
8 Advent Carriers = 5500

Played this match with carriers holding fighters. Carrier came out with 4 left, assailants were wiped out. The advent ships had to be move constantly though so a considerable amount of micro involved but it appears that you can effectively counter and LRM rush with a lot of carriers. But you have to micro them very carefully.

Did the same test using bombers to see how that would work and that test ended with 2 carriers left.

Also did a test where advent Weapon only cap ship and vasari only cap ship fought it out with 8 carriers on my side and 10 assailants on this side. I had bombers on my carriers to begin with and attacked his cap ship first. Both our cap ships went down at exactly the same time which was surprising. I figure my ship with bombers would take out his cap ship faster than he did with his LRM's. I eventually won the battle with about 6 carriers left.

This is a bit of a surprise to me. For advent you can buy carriers before you can buy LRM's which requires less money spent on building research stuff as well. So if someone is moving in with lots of LRM's that seems to be the counter. I'm not sure I'd use hangars yet, in a close game those points might end up being wasted if the enemy blows the thing asap.

If the enemy as careful he could research flak and counter your points spent on fighters/bombers very easily.

I still think fighters/bombers are underpowered but at least there is 1 use for them....

I played a long awesome game that ended with a massive battle involving LRM, Light frigates, and Hvy Cruisers, some flak, and a few cap ships and I had made it a point to build a fleet of carriers (with bombers) and focus'd the on the hvy cruisers. They got a few kills but if I could go back and do it again it's just easier, safer, and more versatile to use hvy cruisers. Bombers do get kills on hvy cruisers but not fast enough.

I'd really like to see bombers and fighters get a damage boost because for the amount of work you have to put into using them the results are barely on par with using other simpler units that you just charge into.

If all the ships/structures using strikecraft could deplay double the number of ships I think these weapons would be extremely valuable and probably match up really well against flak. If someone jumped into a battle with no strikecraft and the enemy had some that would be a big advantage. (assuming they were on opposite sides. I think this is fair considering that if a fleet with lsot of strike craft jumps into a trap and is attacked immediately they would be at a huge disadvantage.

Right now, assuming you use them properly and only jump them in when they are going to be safe, you might get an even fight depending on the enemy in a best case scenario.

It would be nice if fighters countered light frigates as well, or at least did more damage to them. I'm not sure what this would do to game balance but I think everyone expects this. Fighters are for light targets, bombers are for hvy targets.

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/304141/page/1

I read that, I like your suggestions but I don't think they make strikecraft a fair balance vs other units. Adding more squadrons to carriers and nerfing flak frigates would be my recommendation.

Someone posted a build order for each race across several different strats, Rush, Economy, normal start, etc. and with each build order he went with LRM's and flak everytime. No carriers, no hangars, no strikecraft of any kind.

I'd like to see these units become more useful. And I think flak needs to be toned down for this to happen. It's supposed to be a specialized unit but it's performance in combat is close to the light frigate. It can hold it's own vs a lot of other forces and still counter strikecraft. I think it's ok with how much damage it does, it's just way too strong. I think lRM's and light frigates should counter it so that it would be important to keep your flak frigates in reserve or protected. Currently you just run them into the middle of battle and let them soak up fire.

So you want to see them become more useful by overpowering them so they're the only option and it's only fighters, bombers, and caps with antifighter/bomber abilities that are used?..

I don't see how strikecraft will become overpowered by making flak frigates weak enough that they won't be a frontline fighting force... Strikecraft vs flak will still end up with strikecraft losing, but flak vs LRM/Light Frigates should be the opposite. If the enemy goes heavy flak and LRM and I take light frigates and LRM I should have the advantage and I'm not sure there is much advantage there. The Flaks soak up so much damage that it makes them a VERY effective frigate unit in all types of combat. They suck at hurting cap ships but I don't think that is a big deal considering their purpose.

If you consider how much micro it takes to field strikecraft effectively and how vulnerable it makes in almost every respect how can you argue that we are even approaching strikecraft being overpowered?

To summarize what I'd like to see right now is:
Carriers get +2 squadrons from the start.
Flak gets -25% or -50% in shields and armor.

After testing the cruiser carriers they do not seem to be that far off from where they need to be. Carrier cap ships however need some work. If we leave flak frigates as is then I think we're going to have to buff strikecraft in a big way which is probably going to unbalance something else.

If you can go into specifics about why nerfing flak frigates is a bad idea, or adding more squadrons to carriers is a bad idea I'd appreciate it. I think flak are way overpowered atm, and we can either overpower the ships they counter or we can bring flak into line with it's specialized role. If you consider the other rspecialized ships, LRM's, Cruiser Carriers, support cruisers, they all have fairly severe counters and if the enemy puts those to wrok against you your forces are going to suffer big time. Flak frigates seem to never die. They appear to be the toughest ships to kill when I'm taking a planet from pirates (except hvy cruisers), and in mass numbers your enemy will spend a ton of resources getting rid of them.

GOOD JORB UNDERSTANDING DAMAGE/ARMOR TYPES.

God I'm tired of trying to help you guys when half of you are like tumbler.

To be fair, if you wouldn't make such odd assertions, he would take you more seriously and a more productive discussion could be going on. Things like "[flaks] counter almost every frigate unit with ease" are hard to take seriously. Just consider a little more carefully what you're saying before posting.

Flaks are tanks, as you have pointed out. However, their damage is hideously low to pretty much everything except strikecraft. They may be able to survive a large attack, but they will not be able to actually kill off a significant number of ships (remove enemy DPS) while the enemy is pretty much free to ignore them for other targets (infrastructure, capitals).

Wrong.

They can't scratch Light Frigates. If a Defense Vessel has ALL 4 guns firing at different Light Frigates, it would be able to manage a whopping total of 5.55 DPS. Before Shield Mitigation and Regen/Repair are factored in. One gun would only do a pitiful 1.39 DPS. The Light Frigates also get a 35% damage bonus against Flaks, and will just kill them for just about no damage to themselves.

They'd also be useless against Scouts since Scouts are just roving around and looking at things or placing Probes/Timed Explosives etc., and can easily run away from the much slower Flaks after taking a negligibly tiny amount of damage.

It would also be a ridiculous freak occurrence if a Flak were to engage a Colony Frigate, which I can't see happening in case of any non-militia Flak ship.

Siege Frigates are already countered by their own hideous cost and supply requirements, so you won't need to shoot them since they won't be built in the first place. In case of the AI Siege-spams, 2-3 Hangar Defenses and/or a small group of Cruiser Carriers with Fighters on board will salvage a lot more population than the equivalent cost/supply worth of Flaks.

As for using Flaks to blockade Trade Routes by killing Trade Ships, this is again a bad idea. The Trade Ships will probably just fly past before the Flak guns can kill them, and when a group of Light Frigates arrives, the Flaks are dead. Unlike Carrier Cruisers, which can send Fighters to quickly pop every Trade Ship that enters the sector while remaining at the edge of the gravity well poised to jump at any time.

And any direct fight between 2 Flak Frigates will probably result in no conclusion, since Shield Mitigation and Regeneration would stop damage faster than the Flaks would be able to deal damage.

With the exception of Light Frigates and Flak Frigates, however, Fighters are deadly against all the above frigate types.

Okay here:

Any fleet with 20% flak as opposed to carrier-cruisers is going to have a problem when the other player decides he wants his strike craft to be effective. Target and take out the weak flak frigates first, and strike craft have free reign until reinforcements arrive. With the support of strike, the other 80% of your fleet can kill the remaining fleet with ease, and with less possible losses, considering strike craft are rebuilt for free.

All the thread has done is make me want to use strike craft in ways i had never thought of, and anyone who says that ohhh 50supply of carrier-cruisers vs 50-supply of LRMs or ANY other ship should be a proper test, with other variables introducing "noise," is grossly misunderstanding the S in RTS.

Personally, other than minor harrasment - the only time I would use fighters/bombers in a front line battle is with the TEC level 6 ability.

Don't know if anyone else has done the match - but at level 5 (usually you can get this or get very close to this before your first fight with another player) - you're sporting 4 squadrons, all with +3 armor and +30% damage as TEC.

Level 6 is probably the only redeeming quality to fighters/bombers in the game at the moment. Someone was mentioning dodging flak - that's all well and good if you're dictating the battle.

You don't dodge, when the battle is at your doorstep.

Sam W.