Bombers & Fighters: Balance Discussion

Tumbler

Join Date 04/2006

Bombers & Fighters: Balance Discussion

I've been trying to force myself to use Bombers and fighters as a counter to certain ships and what I'm finding is that these units are nearly worthless.

If you deploy fighters they can do more damage to frigates and smaller ships, if you deploy bombers they do more damage to larger ships and hvy cruisers.

The problem is that it's suicide to deploy these units vs cruisers/frigates. They just don't do enough damage to make them a serious threat. With a swarm of bombers (10) plus 2 lvls of upgrades they still spend way too much time flying around and not killing things.

If they are supposed to counter certain units they are the worst counter I've ever seen. It makes more sense to counter certani units with the same unit. Hvy cruisers come in and you need to have a fleet of hvy cruisers of your own. But if you spend some of your points on bombers don't expect that to give you an edge. If anything if the enemy spent the same poitns you did on hvy cruisers he'd own you hard.

These things need a buff if they are going to be useful. As is I'm going to stop using them until something is done. The bang for my buck compared to other units is too low.

Some suggestions:

Bombers/Fighters make straffing passes which ends up making their refire rate terrible. On a moving vessel they should get in behind him and fire continuously. On a stationary vessel they should just orbit it firing constantly. You could also just up their damage so that one pass every few seconds packs a bigger punch and then things can stay just as they are otherwise.

I realize that bombers and fighters are essentially free units that regenerate for free but unless they do more damage there is simply no way they can be useful in this game.

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again people are forgetting that carriors are best used as a replenishable force

As long as you keep them at jump range, they can do damage and retreat without loss..

In the fleet example you list carriors could sit at the edge of the gravity well dropping fighters endlessly for free on the off chance you lose the fight your next force does not need to replace the carriors cause they are at long range and retreat Carriors tend to play to a more hit and run tactic or long term fights..

basicaly, you should not have to replace your carriors often if played right, they should be a 1 time expense as they stay outta combat range.. barring you get hit by someone jumping in right on you.

Altho more combat oriented ships do fair better in outright combat.. the fact that you can support your combat ships with an unlimited amount of fighters launched from a safe distance, definatly has advantages

If ya want broken tho.. 10 Capital ships, 4 Vasari battleships and 6 vasari carriors all level 8-10 were insanely broken.. 67 wings of fighters.. heavy hitting battleships.. and to top it off the carriors can repair alot of hull damage fairly quickly in packs.. altho i dont see anyone actualy using a fleet like this in terms of real play.. short of a month long game.. the idea of farming levels off pirate bases comes to mind to make a somewhat difficult to kill fleet..

I managed to take this particular fleet in against over 200 ships in 1 system(4 capitals level 3+ included) i went head to head, not even kiteing around just front lineing all my ships.. and still droped the entire fleet in a slugfest without 1 capital going down..

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My previous tests showed that a single carrier with fighters or bombers both fail miserably at stopping a wave of 10 light frigates. If you micro the carrier in circles this changes but the carrier still takes a major thrashing.

How many times must it be said that neither Fighters nor Bombers is a counter to Light Frigates, yet you keep using them? Light Frigates are instead a counter to Carrier Cruisers.

Cost for cost, compared to Carrier Cruisers with Bombers, Assailants do:
133.5% more damage to light armor
250.3% more damage to medium armor
75.2% more damage to heavy armor
12.5% less damage to very heavy armor
16.8% more damage to Capital Ships

You're forgetting that the Lasuraks can switch over to Fighters in 96 seconds, and kite with an Antorak during that time. They can switch damage type for free. Calculate again with Fighters against VeryLight and Light armor, and Bombers against everything else.

And you are forgetting that missiles and lasers replenish instantly and for free, and they can't be shot down.
The strikecrafts are the ordinance; if the carriers are killed they will go down. That the strikecrafts themselves can be killed is only an extra weakness.

The weapons on the strike craft themselves are also replenished for free. The strike craft can make another attack if the carriers are killed.

Don't forget the other two weaknesses: high resource cost and high supply cost relative to the units compared above (LRM, assailant)

He's calculating with that factor already taken into account, I believe.

No Antorak? Sad. It holds up to 3 squads as well, and has Distort Gravity. With Level 3 Distort Grav, kiting carriers can easily match speed with Scouts, moving faster than Light Frigates or LRMs can manage, with capitals and cruisers being left to bite dust(even Intercepting Kodiaks). Repair Cloud from the Skirantras can keep flak harried, and of course, you can switch over to Bombers any time you want.

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I find carriers to be great I know I have an economic advantage. They aren't as economically effective as Kodiak's. The math and survivability back this up. Carriers are also easier to counter.

BUT ... Let's say I just researched a fresh supply level, I am a little behind against the enemy on ships, if I drop all my supply into carriers, the advantage is insurmountable. They turn a winning player into a crushing player because bombers can kill so much before the fight starts. In particular, if you anti cap ship abilities mixed with bombers, you can pick off a lower capital right as the fight starts, possibly causing a rout.

And they are the #1 building killer. If you are just doing mop up, carriers own. I wouldn't use them against a human though. Good vs AI. Poop vs human who knows how to counter.

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I've also noticed that the AI 1.03 targets them with hight priority.
More than once I've seen Ai light frigate going through my own's to get the carriers cruisers on the border of the gravity well

Ai also likes to attack colony frigate ...

It makes the user of carrier cruiser difficult.

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It makes the user of carrier cruiser difficult.

Counter it. Vasari -> Antorak Marauder -> Distort Gravity. Advent -> Iconus Guardian -> Repulsion. TEC -> Nothing.

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Fighters do a whole 2.7% more damage against light armor than Assailants.

again people are forgetting that carriors are best used as a replenishable force

As long as you keep them at jump range, they can do damage and retreat without loss..

And YOU keep forgetting that they won't be able to stay out of range or retreat unless there's something else for the enemy to shoot at, it's a mental flaw to beleive that carrier are better because YOU hide them while while your other ships get slaughtered.

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Um.. Fighters do 20 DPS against light armor.
Assailants do 13 dps against light armor.

I'm not saying that fighters are good, i'm just saying that you're WRONG.

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Um.. Fighters do 20 DPS against light armor.
Assailants do 13 dps against light armor.

I'm not saying that fighters are good, i'm just saying that you're WRONG.

Fighters and Assailants do not cost the same.

You get AT LEAST 2 assailants for every 1 fighter so poof, no more advantage.

If fighters were the same cost as assailants then you'd be correct. they aren't. Not even close.

When you compare these units you can't compare them head to head because each has a different cost. You need to factor in how many of one unit will fight another in a fair fight and that is where the problem is.

If a cruiser carrier deployed 2-3 squadrons each this would be a different issue.

If carriers deployed 10+ squadrons this would be a different issue.

But the carrier deploys 2, and the cruisers deploy 1.

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I use fighters and bombers on EVERY one of my planets. Then I put them all close to the planet and add a few gun things to protect them and the enemy almost NEVER gets past. I love them!

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I don't disagree that fighters/bombers aren't good enough.

I disagree on what many of you think is the solution/

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If you are a master micromanager when it comes to battles, being able to designate new targets at the drop of a hat, then fighters and bombers may be slightly less cost effective. However, if you need to leave ships to their own devices, I think that strike craft are more effective. If you take a few seconds to leave the carriers at the edge of the gravity well, the fighters/bombers become VERY dificult to deal with. Bombers will absolutely devour any capital ship without fighter cover, thus providing ample demand for both. Fighters and bombers are exactly how they should be.

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Um.. Fighters do 20 DPS against light armor.Assailants do 13 dps against light armor.I'm not saying that fighters are good, i'm just saying that you're WRONG.Fighters and Assailants do not cost the same.You get AT LEAST 2 assailants for every 1 fighter so poof, no more advantage.If fighters were the same cost as assailants then you'd be correct. they aren't. Not even close.When you compare these units you can't compare them head to head because each has a different cost. You need to factor in how many of one unit will fight another in a fair fight and that is where the problem is.If a cruiser carrier deployed 2-3 squadrons each this would be a different issue.If carriers deployed 10+ squadrons this would be a different issue.But the carrier deploys 2, and the cruisers deploy 1.

You can get 15 Assailants for the approx cost of 10 Transporters. This is not including the fact that the 15 Assailants will take up 12.5% more fleet supply.

DPS of 15 Assailants vs:

Fighters: 0.00
Bombers: 0.00
Scouts & Long-Range Frigates: 195.00
Light Frigates: 292.50
Flak Frigates & Support Cruisers: 146.25
Heavy Cruisers & Structures: 146.25
Capital Ships: 146.25

... from the range of 8840 with a speed of 800.

DPS of 10 Transporters vs:

Fighters: 66.62
Bombers: 153.75
Scouts & Long-Range Frigates: 205.00
Light Frigates: 85.35
Flak Frigates & Support Cruisers: 85.35
Heavy Cruisers & Structures: 170.80
Capital Ships: 128.17

... from the range of 1 gravity well with a speed of 500.

Now lets consider the extra fleet supply problem in and reduce the number of Assailants to 13.

DPS of 13 Assailants vs:

Fighters: 0.00
Bombers: 0.00
Scouts & Long-Range Frigates: 169.00
Light Frigates: 253.50
Flak Frigates & Support Cruisers: 126.75
Heavy Cruisers & Structures: 126.75
Capital Ships: 126.75

... from the range of 8840 with a speed of 800.

So much for the Lasurak Transporter doing lousy DPS. You just need to keep an Antorak or 2 with them to avoid fire by kiting around in circles while the enemy struggles behind.

There's a similar Aeria vs. Disciple post in the Strikecraft Newbie Doubts(or whatever) thread.

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I think the scenario of 15 assailants vs 10 transporters is what most players will encounter as I have not found a game where supply is the only issue when picking ships. In fact I've never found supply to be an important enough factor to use in these experiments. If supply were limited that would be another issue, but you can just buy more when you need it.

The Vasari Transporter seems like a much better unit than the advent transporter, but I'd like to see how it holds up against those 15 assailants. DPS on paper looks equal but you transports won't last as long will they? Is there a unit they will ever be able to defeat before they are destroyed?

They seem to do the most damage to LRM frigates and scouts. Try putting an equal matched group against those and see what happens. Maybe this is just an advent issue because my advent transporter have armor 0, hull 1125, and 125 shields. And they cost about 50 crystal less than yours. And I've tried running them away from teh enemy, they get smashed.

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This whole discussion is stupid.

If Vasari goes transporters, they're pretty screwed.

Transporters are amazingly slow, and they build strikecraft incredibly slowly. Further, against another Vasari, Sentinels splash the strikecraft and instantly kill huge groups. Sentinels do even better against Advent and Tec strikecraft (particularly Advent due to splash damage).

Once the fighters/bombers are taken care of, the light frigates will clean up the carriers. Carriers do pitiful amounts of dps to light frigates, so their alpha strike will be very weak. In fact, it's common to see sentinel/light frig kill carriers with no losses whatsoever, and a high levelled cap ship due to all the strikecraft deaths. Finally, the primary intended use of carriers, as the anti lrm with fighters, makes them useless against basically every other ship type. The fighters do well vs the LRMs, and almost 0 damage vs anything else, which means that if the opponent simply warps his LRMs away, you have a fleet doing nothing (since you can't chase them with transporters).

Basically, as it stands, strikecraft are useless due to the prevalence of flak. Anyone who says you can "dodge" flak is just being stupid. Good players guard their fleet with flak, which means to attack anything you need to go through the gauntlet.

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Pesky, AntiMedium is an overpowered damagetype. If they reduce it's damage vs caps and buildings in 1.04 then your numbers won't be so harsh.

It's hard to take you people seriously when you say bombers/fighters need to be TWICE as good in every way.

Also you're comparing carriers to something overpowered, LRMS.
And what you're saying is carriers should be way better than LRMS, the most overpowered ship in the game.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

If ya want broken tho.. 10 Capital ships, 4 Vasari battleships and 6 vasari carriors all level 8-10 were insanely broken.. 67 wings of fighters.. heavy hitting battleships.. and to top it off the carriors can repair alot of hull damage fairly quickly in packs.. altho i dont see anyone actualy using a fleet like this in terms of real play.. short of a month long game.. the idea of farming levels off pirate bases comes to mind to make a somewhat difficult to kill fleet..

Keep thinking that's broken. Enjoy playing online with it.

And HuntingX, the thing is light frigs don't kill flak before heavy cruisers decimate the light frigs, even if you have a ton of them.
Even if you destroy 75% of their flak, 5% of them is probly all the need to drop the bombers as you only need 1 flak per 7 or 8 bomber squads.

But more bomber HP will alleviate this as they will survive longer to deal damage, and they'll die more slowly so they can be replaced sooner.

Fighters dying fast is fine I guess, but their damage type sucks. Fighters should hurt lrms and light frigs hard if someone doesn't have flaks.(which would help advents early game)

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I didn't say that I build light frigs to kill flak so that I can use carriers.

I said that I use light frigs in combination with flaks to kill carrier based armies with no losses.

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er yeah sorry

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Also, dont forget to tell all carriers and light carriers (cruisers) to Hold Position. Then they can just sit by the repair structure, and they will launch their strikecraft, but they wont move to the battle. They will fire at anything that comes into their engagement range, also.

Also, Tumbler, a capital carrier when it gets experience gets more squadrons. A level 10 capital carrier has 7 squadrons, not just 2.

I generally build mostly bomber squadrons, because I use them to attack enemy ships (obviously). I've been playing TEC mostly, so when I build Sova carriers, I give them fighters since one of their specials is Strong Fighters. I dont build carrier heavy fleets, but usually have a couple of them flying with my other capitals ship groups.

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It's hard to take you people seriously when you say bombers/fighters need to be TWICE as good in every way.

Also you're comparing carriers to something overpowered, LRMS.
And what you're saying is carriers should be way better than LRMS, the most overpowered ship in the game.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

Actually most of these tests are against Light Frigates and I think a carrier, just like the other cap ships, should be able to defeat an equally priced group of light frigates in combat from the start. Making bombers/fighters do 2x more damage would do a lot to make them more useful. You could also just give each unit that deploys these craft double the amount of units to deploy but I think that making them more powerful makes more sense.

I'd really like someone who supports fighters to show us a battle where they dominate. Put them against a fair opponent and try to win. Tests I've seen so far make that result HIGHLY unlikely.

The one test I've seen work for an advent carrier is against 10 TEC frigates, started out on far side, had full bombers, and ran around the system fleeing from the frigates the whole time and got about 50% into armor before the last frigate went down. That was constant micro as well, you can't give cap ships multiple move orders because they stop at each point, then turn then move. (Making them take more damage from the frigates)

Post some games, do some tests, put anything up that supports your arguement because all you have is speculation and we have real battle results. I love strike craft, I want to use them but I also want a fair fight and the 2 don't go together right now.

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I think there is a misconception that you should use fighters vs light frigates.

You should use bombers.

It's a bit silly.. but yeah, fighters only do damage to LRMS, siege, and scouts.

I'm not saying fighters/bombers don't need a buff.. I've already said how I think they need improving.

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Transporters are amazingly slow

Speed of 500. The Subverter, Overseer, Devastator, Desolator, and Skirantra Carrier have the same speed(the Evacuator is slower and the Marauder can go faster if it wants).

and they build strikecraft incredibly slowly.

Vasari Fighter Squadron: 96 seconds
Vasari Bomber Squadron: 90 seconds
TEC Fighter Squadron: 120 seconds
TEC Bomber Squadron: 125 seconds
Advent Fighter Squadron: 144 seconds
Advent Bomber Squadron: 126 seconds

If the Lasurak Transporter is slow, the Percheron and Aeria are slower.

Good players guard their fleet with flak, which means to attack anything you need to go through the gauntlet.

They either have to spread flak too thin or put a lot more resources into flak(which means less resources into killing their enemy's direct-combat fleet). Flak spread too thin can just be flown through by Vasari/TEC strike craft without too many losses, and can be themselves focussed on by all the Bombers and Light Frigates at once. Flak clumped up too densely can be dodged.

High-HP heavily armored Vasari Bombers are in the best condition against flaks, as innociv said, when compared to other strikecraft because they're individually the hardest to kill, and when one of them does get killed, it can be replaced by the time another one gets killed.

you have a fleet doing nothing (since you can't chase them with transporters).

Who says your fleet must consist ENTIRELY of Transporters?

I've been playing TEC mostly, so when I build Sova carriers, I give them fighters since one of their specials is Strong Fighters.

Heavy Fighters. I think the buff works on Bombers too, but not sure about it.

Actually most of these tests are against Light Frigates and I think a carrier, just like the other cap ships, should be able to defeat an equally priced group of light frigates in combat from the start.

See my Aeria vs. Disciple post in the Strike craft Newbie Doubts thread by Belfrahn. Look at how Light Frigates are a direct head-on counter to Cruiser Carriers, while neither Bombers nor Fighters are much good vs. Light Frigates. Fighters barely even scratch their paint, while Bombers do half damage.

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Yes Heavy fighters works on bombers too.

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It's a bit silly.. but yeah, fighters only do damage to LRMS, siege, and scouts.

Actually it's only LRM's and bombers. Fighters should only be used to counter those 2 enemies. Bombers are better against every other enemy. (noted in the 1.04 post by the devs) This should be addressed in 1.04 patch making fighters better against light armor types.

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It's a bit silly.. but yeah, fighters only do damage to LRMS, siege, and scouts.Actually it's only LRM's and bombers. Fighters should only be used to counter those 2 enemies. Bombers are better against every other enemy. (noted in the 1.04 post by the devs) This should be addressed in 1.04 patch making fighters better against light armor types.

....................................
Scouts, Bombers, LRM's, and Siege frigs ALL HAVE THE SAME ARMOR TYPE.

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Also, Tumbler, a capital carrier when it gets experience gets more squadrons. A level 10 capital carrier has 7 squadrons, not just 2.

I'd love to see someone test carriers at level 10. I think it would only be fair to test it against another level 10 cap ship though so you tell me which cap ships a lvl 10 carrier can take out?

Or how many hvy cruisers?

Deploying 7 squadrons off a lvl 10 carrier seems like it should be effective but from the testing I've done I don't think this is the case.

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