Sins held back by only two things. Disappointing.

Well I am not sure this would fix the problem but as far as I see it until now the problem seems to be lying at connecting to games in ICO. So it might be an idea to display the IP behind the game (e.g. Systems of War, FFA, Hoster: 123.123.123.123:1234) and than make a seperate "Direct connect" function that allows people to connect to the game without having to go through ICO.
As said, I am not sure this would fix it, but hey, at least it is an idea ^^. I am not gonna come into the taste of online gaming for at least a few weeks more until the internet in my area runs fine again

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the_Monk

Join Date 01/2008

+222

To quote myself, once again.

@CyberMage

1. The argument that a user of a game shouldn't have to "learn" anything to use it ridiculous. You did have to "learn" to drive a car didn't you? What would you have said to someone complaining about not being able to drive, without recognizing the need to learn how?

2. Just because many games use "encapsulating/tunneling" techniques for their netcode to "bypass" NAT-devices doesn't make that some defacto standard. It is actually that much unsafer for your computer system, because traffic is handled much more "loosely" (loose NAT rules) which can only serve to increase a computer system's overall security-breach potential.

3. You didn't have to "cd..", the c:\windows\system32\ folder which contains the "ipconfig" file you were trying to run is included in the system's PATH statement allowing you to "execute" it from anywhere (any path location on your hard drive at the command-prompt will do), as will going to your "network connections" folder, right-clicking on your LAN adapter and "left-clicking" on STATUS. No need for the command-prompt even.

the Monk

/end quote

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I play games for the single-player experience more than I do for the multiplayer. I'd say that when it come to my purchase, it's a 70/30 balance factor between the SP and the online potential of the game.

But, some people are the other way around. Some people don't care about plot, or characters.. only the ability to compete and frag other people online. That's fine, I like it too. It's because of this 'balance' between different types of gamers that developers should always be designing games for both experiences equally if they want to reach the full spectrum of customers.

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the_Monk

Join Date 01/2008

+222

Oh, and the instructions in my guide "Networking and SINS" linked to on page 3 (POST #66) of the "stickied" thread "How to: see/connect-to/host Servers", is a great compliment to the information on www.portforward.com. I am of course always open to suggestions on how to make my guides even better.

the Monk

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OP brings a very valid point in his first point, the online part sucks. I have barely seen any comments about that part at all.

. Which leads to point #2. In the absence of a decent Multi-player experience, the game is looked to for its single player accolades.

Note how he points out that he only considers singe player to be a problem due to "the absence of a decent Multi-player experience".

He's absolutely right about the second part as well. This game is mainly considered to be a RTS, with elements of a 4X game in it, not the other way around (check Wikipedia, or any major gaming sites like gamespot.com). It's only natural to assume that just like every RTS I've ever played, it should come with a campaign mode. There hasn't been anyone who has asked to get an entire singleplayer campaign mode patched into the game, but there has still been plenty of posts explaining why that would be stupid in a condescending tone. It has just been stated that with a bad online experience, the singleplayer part will get even more focus, and the only singleplayer game there is, is sandbox.

The issue with the lacking single player is only an issue because the online client is so bad. This should have been fixed before release, and the best way would be to make sure that the online client worked properly.

Sandboxing might work fine for the 4x fans, but the RTS part is atleast as prominent as the 4x part (I think the RTS much, much more prominent but I'm settling on the middle to be somewhat diplomatic), and it's only natural for those who are used to RTS games to react on this.

tl;dr: Fix the online experience, and the need for something more than playing versus the always boring AI will be satisfied for most gamers.

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I personally couldn't care less about a campaign mode, but the multiplayer aspect is a HUGE turnoff. I have never had such a headache with another MP system, and I've played on gamespy.

I hope there is a patch of some kind in the works that can fix the multiplayer issues. Sins is a great game, I'd hate to see it die off.

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This seems to be a trend in the PC gaming industry for quite sometime to release a game and then patch the hell out of later after getting all of the community feedback. This almost gives way to a "2nd Beta" version which is actually the real release... then 6 months down the road at patch 1.0xx the game is playable. I have often skipped buying a PC game until the expansion comes out because of this. This game I didn't, but I did noticed it was released last week and they already patched the game... so that's a good things I guess.
FWIW I also prefer the maps vs a campaign. I like that this is a 4x game with a splattering of RTS.

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I kind of pass on campaigns myself as well so no big deal, but I could see how having some sort of campaign to back the nice fiction of this IP or at least make the tutorials a little more robust with story elements would have been a nice edition.

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I personally couldn't care less about a campaign mode, but the multiplayer aspect is a HUGE turnoff.

I have never had such a headache with another MP system, and I've played on gamespy.

I hope there is a patch of some kind in the works that can fix the multiplayer issues.

Thanks for posting your critical evaluation.

It would not benefit the evolution of the Sins on-line experience if only the "happy campers" (who have not had those MP issues*) posted with blissful enthusiasm.

To "pressure" Ironclad and Stardock to proceed with MP fixes, the forum must display posts like yours -- pointed, but polite.

* By the way, I have played eleven solid hours, on ICO, with not one single problem. At the moment, I "don't have a dog in that fight".

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Ok well.. Lets use our imaginations for a sec.
I have no experience in multi but that may someday change.

In all seriousness: What would the story be? What could it possibly be?

O The story of _____'s life?
O Rags to riches?
O Riches to domination?
O Alexander the great?

They're all cliche and dare I say corny.

This game doesn't -need- a story. Like, yeah, some fluff for the races (the Vasari are this, they came from here, they worship this etc etc) would be a swell thing so you could develop a sense of connection to your race, but the game itself is just so.. Inherently sandbox.
Even Star Wars Empire at War's campaign was sandbox-y. Conquer, conquer, conquer, conquer trigger planet X to advance. SoaSE just cuts through the trigger planets and gets right into the action.

I very much enjoy the game and I can't wait to see more content upgrades!

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Seems that someone already foresaw this issue and created a map which he calls a campaign, you can download it here on this web site: WWW Link
So the whole debate is over now... someone mod'ed a campaign.

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I havn't had time to read the whole thread, but wanted to add my opinion anyway. Sorry if this was discussed, debunked, ect.

I agree with both of the OP's points. The lack of story is a very terrible aspect of Sins. How am I supposed to know anything about my race? I barely know their name. You say some games don't need it. Civilization games don't need it, because they are already based on the biggest story of the world. Humanity's story. We grew up reading the "story" in the textbooks, we don't need aid in realizing it any longer. When a game is made, and it has no connection to a story we know then how are we supposed to feel like we understand? It's like the entire atmosphere of the game is completely foreign. Like a language you cannot read.

The multiplayer aspect I havn't had much time using, for the chief reason OP ran into. 600 people online, yet 3 games are wanting players. Why after shelving out hard earned money am I required more work forwarding ports on my PC to enjoy it fully? Many people have no knowledge of PC workings, nor do they care. They want to play the game without troubles, as do I. Perhaps this will be changed in a future patch.

Thanks

~Shaun

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I havn't had time to read the whole thread, but wanted to add my opinion anyway. Sorry if this was discussed, debunked, ect.
I agree with both of the OP's points. The lack of story is a very terrible aspect of Sins. How am I supposed to know anything about my race? I barely know their name.
You say some games don't need it. Civilization games don't need it, because they are already based on the biggest story of the world. Humanity's story. We grew up reading the "story" in the textbooks, we don't need aid in realizing it any longer. When a game is made, and it has no connection to a story we know then how are we supposed to feel like we understand? It's like the entire atmosphere of the game is completely foreign. Like a language you cannot read.

I agree.

I feel if some of the devs or an official creative team created a backstory and added more information about these civilizations (look at Warhammer for instance), this would please more players than just being thrust into this strange world.

Why are these races so hungry to expand anyway?

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I admit to not reading the other pages of this, and I apologize, so if someone has already said this... meh.

The story mode in a 4X game is the singleplayer skirmish. The story comes out with the gameplay, with your exploits and explorations, the extermination campaigns and expansion of your culture. Every time you see someone post the narrative of their last game, you're reading their unique version of the story. Imagination is required.

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No campaign is a blessing in disguise. It meant that Sins had more advanced and capable AI for the skirmish mode (not to mention a large collection of scenarios).

I think the sacrifice of a campaign game (which most only would really play through once then stick to skirmish) for smart AI is worth it in the long run.

I mean look at Company of Heroes. Sure it has a nice and interesting campaign. I finished it (even played through it multiple times). However, when I found the scripted missions too easy I turned to skirmish mode to try different tactics (and to be able to play as the other races). To my shock, I learnt the AI was so abysmal on even the hardest of AI settings and barely looked functional at all. Even during the current beta patch testing they are doing at the moment, the AI is still horrible and really cripples the appeal to the game in the long run to anyone who wants to play without having to bother with mucking around online.

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the_Monk

Join Date 01/2008

+222

The multiplayer aspect I havn't had much time using, for the chief reason OP ran into. 600 people online, yet 3 games are wanting players. Why after shelving out hard earned money am I required more work forwarding ports on my PC to enjoy it fully? Many people have no knowledge of PC workings, nor do they care. They want to play the game without troubles, as do I. Perhaps this will be changed in a future patch.Thanks~Shaun

Why shouldn't people care (be made to care) to acquire more knowledge on the workings of the "tool" much of their life revolves around/relies on?

Not to mention, those that discard all the help the community is willingly providing.

I guess you're also the type to complain about having to "change the oil" or "have the coolant flushed" in your car? But dammit......I paid for the car, why can't I just enjoy it "fully" and pay/learn nothing more about it!

the Monk

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Oh, and the instructions in my guide "Networking and SINS" linked to on page 3 (POST #66) of the "stickied" thread "How to: see/connect-to/host Servers", is a great compliment to the information on www.portforward.com. I am of course always open to suggestions on how to make my guides even better. the Monk

Here is a suggestion: Make it work out of the box - suggestion for devs not you. Most other online games work out of the box and this one should too. It is great that you have taken the time to put together a guide to navigate this mess, but a guide should unnecessary. And even when it does work, ICO still tells you that people will not be able to join your game.

You keep trying to tell us that this is not a problem. Well, the number of posts on this site regarding hosting problems tells me otherwise. And then you have to realize that most run-of-the-mill consumers do not even visit message forums. How many more people could Sins have online and playing if not for these issues?

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the_Monk

Join Date 01/2008

+222

Here is a suggestion: Make it work out of the box - suggestion for devs not you. Most other online games work out of the box and this one should too. It is great that you have taken the time to put together a guide to navigate this mess, but a guide should unnecessary. And even when it does work, ICO still tells you that people will not be able to join your game.

You keep trying to tell us that this is not a problem. Well, the number of posts on this site regarding hosting problems tells me otherwise. And then you have to realize that most run-of-the-mill consumers do not even visit message forums. How many more people could Sins have online and playing if not for these issues?

Valid points.

I just wanted people to understand that the "problem" is bigger than one might assume at first glance.

1. I agree that there are probably many people who never visit the forums, and are therefore unable to even begin helping themselves.

2. I agree that having a game "work-out-of-the-box" is ideal. I just wanted people to understand what they were asking of the devs. Here's a quote from one of my previous posts:

Just because many games use "encapsulating/tunneling" techniques for their netcode to "bypass" NAT-devices doesn't make that some defacto standard. It is actually that much unsafer for your computer system, because traffic is handled much more "loosely" (loose NAT rules) which can only serve to increase a computer system's overall security-breach potential.

end quote.

3. I know we've all become quite comfortable "using" our computers. The danger (especially in today's age of identity theft etc.) exists in becoming so comfortable that we no longer care to take "reasonable" measures to protect ourselves. I see the most reasonable of measures as the "free education/instruction" myself and other's keep trying to provide.

My point being, whatever the devs do to alleviate the multiplayer issues is up to them, everyone should at the very least not discard the help/instruction provided to them.

Whatever subject it may be, I'm always willing to learn whatever I can from those who are more well-versed in said subject.

the Monk

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Yarlen

Join Date 01/2005

+367

Honestly, pointed comments don't motivate us. They're annoying at best and only go to show how little those making them know about Stardock or Ironclad. We're not some faceless mega-publisher - we support our games and any of the thousands of people who helped beta test Sins (or the hundreds of thousands who bought Galactic Civilizations II) can point that out.

Sins of a Solar Empire was in public beta test for nearly a year before it shipped - that included multiplayer. Had these issues cropped up, we would have addressed them. During the final two months of development we did nothing but test multiplayer internally along with a group of dedicated gamers picked from the beta group - we even made improvements based on preview feedback from the press. We have patched the game twice so far and have made major improvements to ICO each time. For people to claim we didn't test Sins enough or ship it unfinished is ridiculous.

It's simply impossible for anyone to test or anticipate every system or network setup out there - and some of you are using some very odd things! We're sorry to hear that a minority of people are having trouble but we have provided lots of resources on this forum to address multiplayer issues and are offering support both from Stardock and Ironclad should additional assistance be needed.

As we have stated repeatedly, we intend to continue updating Sins and ICO both with new features, fixes and content. We don't need derogatory comments to spur us to do so, but we do accept constructive, polite feedback.

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The multiplayer aspect I havn't had much time using, for the chief reason OP ran into. 600 people online, yet 3 games are wanting players. Why after shelving out hard earned money am I required more work forwarding ports on my PC to enjoy it fully? Many people have no knowledge of PC workings, nor do they care. They want to play the game without troubles, as do I. Perhaps this will be changed in a future patch.Thanks~ShaunWhy shouldn't people care (be made to care) to acquire more knowledge on the workings of the "tool" much of their life revolves around/relies on?Not to mention, those that discard all the help the community is willingly providing.I guess you're also the type to complain about having to "change the oil" or "have the coolant flushed" in your car? But dammit......I paid for the car, why can't I just enjoy it "fully" and pay/learn nothing more about it! the Monk

Monk, I have a degree in Computer Networking Systems, It's what I do for a living. When I go home to play a game on my pc, I do not want to have to configure my ports because the online client for my game is lacking. I Praise the devs for the wonderful job they've done on this game, I love it. However, in this regard, the average gamer does not know how to do all these things, nor as a matter of good business sense, should they ever have too. As of right now, the setup of multiplayer for this game is not user friendly at all. The most anyone should have to do to play or host online it turn off their firewall and/or anti-virus. For the average user, digging into thier system32 folder or router for some makeshift fix is not appropriate at all, nor should it be expected of them by the devs or the community. The OP has a valid point in this regard. While I do agree that everyone should know at least a little about the computers that they use everyday, it is not for everyone, nor should we who know about computers put on an elitist attitude and expect everyone to learn what we know or find another hobby. The hosting and network problems in this game need to be fixed asap, or the devs risk alienating more people from joining this wonderful community.

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the_Monk

Join Date 01/2008

+222

, I have a degree in Computer Networking Systems, It's what I do for a living. When I go home to play a game on my pc, I do not want to have to configure my ports because the online client for my game is lacking. I Praise the devs for the wonderful job they've done on this game, I love it. However, in this regard, the average gamer does not know how to do all these things, nor as a matter of good business sense, should they ever have too. As of right now, the setup of multiplayer for this game is not user friendly at all. The most anyone should have to do to play or host online it turn off their firewall and/or anti-virus. For the average user, digging into thier system32 folder or router for some makeshift fix is not appropriate at all, nor should it be expected of them by the devs or the community. The OP has a valid point in this regard. While I do agree that everyone should know at least a little about the computers that they use everyday, it is not for everyone, nor should we who know about computers put on an elitist attitude and expect everyone to learn what we know or find another hobby. The hosting and network problems in this game need to be fixed asap, or the devs risk alienating more people from joining this wonderful community.

Xenpo,

1. Hello from another geek.

2. I don't just expect people to read my quides and leave it at that. Whatever you see as "elitist" is simple frustration at some (not so well worded) posts. I have, and continue to invit people to my TeamSpeak server where I take the time (sometimes an hour or more) to talk them through the entire process as described in my guides. I don't leave them until they're up and hosting.

3. Having explained "the extra mile" I walk with people who don't know what I know, I do absolutely require that people put some of their own effort into the mix. As stated, I'm willing to spend hours at a time helping (struggling) people.....so shoot me if I decide to "verbally-spank" those that can't be bothered to even try!

the Monk

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Problems in this game are aweful AI...

and your education.

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Anyway if you really want to play a campaign make one yourself

They have made quite a few modding tools openly available and are going to come out with more.

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my router is not configured and it works for me and i know people whoes routers are and it does not work for them in any case i am inclined to belive emperor, i agree with him however i still love the game those other things would deffinatley made it better for me though.

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Monk,

I praise your efforts to help those who would put in the time to work around the net code and problems of this game. I know as well it's not easy to teach people what they need to know. I did not mean to offend with my post(if I did). My point was that for any game to be hugely popular it needs to be user friendly. World of Warcraft would not be by any means what it is today if every user had to go through what some people do with Sins to play a game. I do praise the devs and this community for the help they give each other in getting games hostable etc, but if this game is ever to achieve a massively huge playerbase, a user friendly fix must be found. Again I didn't mean any offense by my previous post, and it's good to see people in this community are willing to provide help to others, but in the end the only thing we should be helping each other with is mods and game strategies and tactics. That being said, I love this community and I love Stardock and IC!

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