Well In the 2 days i've been off the net:

I got called arrogant by Schod, which I call him, so thats really Okay by me

Psychoak, a man who can't make an argument without calling others a 'tard' or saying I took 'stupid' pills, is about as useful for feedback as well crap on a wall. You should tone it down, and you will get listened to more often.

At any rate-

Schod; I didn't refute your testimony at all, I stated quite factually that the Dunovs failed against the LRMs in equal FP and Resources, the problem of course they were both level 1s.

An equivelent number of resources in LRMs against level 3s? Dunno, haven't done it, thus we need to do it. Thats the point; experimentation.

I didn't even start the thread notably, but there are certainly disconcerting results here, everyone was pretty confident that the Antoraks would win out, they didn't they won't either.

There seems to be an issue regarding 'realism' you need to understand that while in a realistic match the Dunovs will lose depending on numerous factors, such as the enemy having twice the resources, but if we consider an equal fight, then both sides have equal FP.

The Dunov combo may cost more but resources are limitless, they are only limited by a rate, so since they save on FP, the Dunov player will have FP for other ships that your LRM pack won't be fantastic for, such as perhaps a good chunk of Cobalts? or maybe carriers... whatever floats your boat.

The fact is the only statements I've made are based on actual experience, not all of you are doing so; I give a great deal of Kudos to Schod for actually taking the time to test for himself. His problem is that he sees it too one dimensionally; one counter for basic 2 dunovs at level 1, isn't really the issue.

Even if equal resources beats the Dunovs with LRMs, FP is a value here, and that needs to be tested for each level of Dunovs. Since capital ships can get better at NO cost often more than not, then we should also keep in mind that in a realistic game you will spend less on those Dunovs than in the tests.

Let me put it this way? Do you think 2 Dunov weak combat, support craft, should be the best pair of capital ships for anti-capital ship hunting?

Take frigates out for just a moment, and think, shouldn't the main battleship/assault ships have that rank? possibly with A Dunov, but should 2 Dunovs be?

I didn't scream nerf, I didn't throw insults, I tested, I posted, disagreeing is fine.

But you need to take a long look in the mirror and realize how silly it is to insult people over the internet for testing a game during a Beta and trying to talk about the results.

being serious for once: I find this fun, disagreement isnt an issue with me. that being said, let me return to shredding the issue at hand.

they certainly are good at maintained combat with other capitals, taht I can give, but "capital hunting"? no. for that you need fast damage output and high survivability, damage first. the dunovs only have good survivability, bringing in reinforcements should be a sneaze.

thing is that in the point of the game where everyone agrees is where they are feasible (and only in that point, I've yet to see someone claim later than mid game) resources are the decider through and through, fleet points are not. fleet points are the decider for late game, as thus they are almost completely out of our considerations.
as for "infinite resources", certainly not in the first half hour of the game.

as it stands the dual/triple dunov strategy only is good at defense in the mid game, any player worth a dancing monkey poo sculpture should know that offense is most important at that point, otherwise you getoverrun.

Capital ships are only vague analogues to their frigate counterparts -- comparing them directly is just silly. The capships have to be combat capable. I'm not seeing the "cheeseball" here. It might need to be toned down a bit, but as has been said, it's expensive, and results in low dps tanks; something I'm not at all uncomfortable with.



This I agree with, though for a different reason. The AI has no idea how to handle the shield restore ability usefully. For a game that aims to allow you to leave the AI to control fleets without utterly crippling yourself (yeah, yeah, I know), it'll be much easier for an area-effect booster to work than the current system.

Hmm. Generally speaking, relying hard counters like shield-penetrating and stunning weapons is a bad sign. It should be soft counterable. Dunov shield boosts probably need a tweak of some kind.

incidentally, anyone who could micro dunovs in circles around evacuators could also micro evacuators so they just fire at the other dunov.

You know we do tests with frigates too. And we don't Just try to even out the FP, resources count, just not as much as FP, its interesting that no one has really made any comments about the test with the full fleet of capitals and frigates against the Dunovs.

So should 12-15 frigates 2 Devastators and a Carrier NOT be able to kill one out of Four Dunovs? They all died, they should at least take one or two of them down with them as the Dunovs were roughly cheaper and less FP.

It was also a good mixed fleet. So don't just say the only tests are silly ones. Give me time, I don't have like a big Sins lab with players chained to desks to try out everything. YOU mentioned 3 Antoraks vs 3 Dunovs, not my fault now you want frigates because you assumed theyd be there but failed to actually mention it. In our fight 2 Antoraks versus one Dunov and one disabled Dunov lost handily to the Dunov, possibly because of the aforementioned firepower issue: they simply cannot kill the Dunov fast enough before the Antoraks run out of Antimatter.

I'll do a frigate test/antorak test when I have time, do you have specific proportion in mind? We'll do equal resources and ignore FP if you like. I'd say against 3 Dunovs you would need 2 Antoraks and the rest be frigates to work, but again I doubt it simply because the Antroaks will require allot of micro and just don't have the Firepower of the Dunovs, and you won't have too too many frigates in that Combo, if you go with only one Antorak it will be very hard to disable 2 Dunovs constantly, and you will run out of antimatter before the Frigates can do the job (I theorize)

Oh- and btw, Micro-ing the Evacuators to point at the other Dunov can work, in that you will occasionaly get to shoot it off, but its much less often than if the Dunovs stay still, we've seen this with Kol and Marza tests via their Gauss and Radiation bombing.

Most of our tests have been resource equal by the way, FP isn't the only concern.

In a real game you can win despite Dueys, no one is saying you can't, but how will you know if the Duey's are grossly effective with so many extra factors, seriously experimentation is obviously unrealistic, but it provides useful information to judge more realistic situations with. Right now, i know if I'm facing 2 or more Dunov's that unless I significantly outnumber the opponent in a fleet worth more FP that retreat is neccessary (or bypassing them, straight on fighting is a poor choice). The Dunov's cannot really go on the offensive too well due to Gauss Cannons with Repair Stations, hold them off and consider alternatives. I wouldn't know the exact limitations of the Dunov if not for trying it out. In real games I found that if tried to use a regular and comprable fleet I would lose... the difference here is that the experiments are faster to learn the lessons.

People will use this cheesy tactic, and most of you seem to be alright with tweaking the Dunov a little no? What exactly are you arguing with? The test methods? So what, its proving a point, Dunovs in straight combat are better than most other combinations of true-bred combat ships. You either think that is okay and fitting, or you think that this is odd and should be modified. Both opinions are probablly valid, but I think more people will enjoy the game if the support ships excel at support in conjuction with attack ships as opposed to just doubling on support cap-ships being better.

So far the only arguments seem to be against the ship choices in the experiments.

DO you think the resources and FP should be equal or just one? Do you think the Dunovs should be accompanied by frigates? Just suggest what ships and qualifications you want, I'll do them. But currently you seem to be ignoring results that are significant and attacking the concept of testing. What do you think the IronClad testers do? Just play for fun all day? They'll be doing allot of similarly and seemingly silly tests, mostly for bugs as opposed to balance concerns though. Finding the extremes in the game is hardly useless or silly.

Schod even tested with me, and anyone who PMs me for replays will get the one I saved of ours. I havn't done a test since then and we didn't save replays of our originals.

Not everyone has asked for replays, and quite frankly your inabillity to believe us is a bit annoying.

Notably I never said we tests every possible combination: in fact I've stated repeatedly exactly what we have tested or not tested and I've been open to requests. For some one who just said you don't want to talk for others you seem awfully comfortable with putting words in my mouth. I do think they are imbalanced. I'm sorry your not convinced I'm working on getting the time to make a massive replay with every good test we can think of, but do you have all the free time in the world? Because I don't.

Please propose a better balance test; and if you seriously suggest just playing the game with no limits to review specific variables, then please don't call it a test.

Whoever I've tested with was labeled repeatedly, Paradoxnt mostly, I ran 3 tests with Schod recently.

You sound and infer as if I'm some new guy just posting random conclusions, I've been here consistently, I post, I'm known. So is Paradoxnt, so it is entirely unreasonable that you take my word and believe a little bit of what I'm saying without a recording. But I'll get you one. I can send you the Schod Replay later tonight (I'm at work) just tell me you want it. When I have a great super-test replay I'll load it up on Sins.bz or something.

Just so you know, Ill state exact numbers/qualifications:

(all ships are at equal levels, full HP, full Shields, and full AM at start of test, all ships position at the edge of a gravity well, usually an asteroid field or asteroid planet, thus a small one. These are only tests I've personally participated in)


Tests with Paradoxnt:

2 Kols (Level 3s)
2 Marzas (Level 3s)
2 Sovas (Level 3s)
1 Kol 1 Dunov (Level 3 and 4)
1 Marza 1 Dunov (Level 3 and 4)
Equal FP worth of LRMs (Against Level 3 Dunovs)

200 FP: 2 Desolators (Level 4 and 3) 1 Carrier (Level 3) and Remainder in Missile Frigates (13) against 4 Dunovs (1 Level 4, remainder level 3 160FP)

Tests with Schod:

2 Antoraks (Level 3 and 4)
Equal FP worth of Vasari Missile Frigates (Against Level 3 Dunovs)
Equal FP and Resources of Vasari Missile Frigates (Against Level 1 Dunovs)

To date only the last test succeeded in beating the Dunovs. By beating I mean they destroyed the Dunovs, they even had about 2/3rds of the force left. This is what Schod is raving about, which is fine, perhaps its a good sign, but its not more realistic than the others since you will very very rarely see 2 level 1s involved in a fight like this.

Tests I want to try:

2 Evacuators with 10 Frigates VS 2 Dunovs with 10 Frigates (since you insist this will matter, but I fail to see how it will if both sides have equal FP and Resources)

2 Antoraks with 10 Frigates versus 2 Dunovs with 10 Frigates, or perhaps 3 Dunovs.

FP and Resource worth of light carriers vs Dunovs. That will be a interesting one. The only issue is that its much easier to produce the Dunovs earlier than the Light Carriers.



Oh and the Devs don't demand a replay of every little issue, you have as much a burden of proof to make as I in your assertions that certain strategies will work. I have at least been making the effort to conduct tests and play it out. You are just talking, and claiming that without a replay my opinion doesn't seem to count, whereas yours without a replay does.

I'll send you a replay of the Schod one tonight, and all future tests if you like.

As is your attempting to shove "DUNOVS ARE IMBALANCED" down our throats, if you want to get personal. Besides, I never said I don't believe you, just that I'm not convinced after reading all of it.



No they don't, but do you honestly believe they'll be convinced by a single forum thread without any supporting evidence that they can clearly see for themselves? And if they wouldn't be, why should anyone else? No, the burden of proof is on you because you are arguing for a change. The ironic thing is, you are not presenting yours as an opinion, but as a dead-on fact, without providing any supporting evidence that people can clearly see for themselves.



I'm not calling it a test, but yes that's what you need to do, though not to review anything specific other than "Does getting 3 Dunovs at the start allow a player to win almost any game". I've beaten 2 players' combined fleets with my own more than once, nobody raved about imbalances, but in one of those cases it meant squat because I couldn't capture a single of my opponent's planets due to culture, so winning that fight meant absolutely nothing.

As I said, to make a good case you need to show how triple Dunovs win games just because it's triple Dunovs, not how they can win individual battles. Case in point, when I played a 1v1 with Schod, he won 4 or 5 battles in a row with my fleets (beat me back, often destroying the vast majority of my forces, while I gained no ground in my attacks), but he only needed to lose one for the deciding moment in the game.



So the triple-Dunov player can win a majority of battles by being able to keep those 3 capitals alive, while losing most/all of his frigate support because a) The level of micro needed for those 3 Dunovs is immense, leaving no reaction time to micro frigates, and a competent player will ignore/keep the 3 Dunovs disabled and shred the support frigates, instead. So even if the 3 Dunovs remain standing at the end, are you then going to assault a fully defended planet with a small fraction of your remaining fleet? Nope, you wouldn't win. So in the end, what does winning that battle count for? Nothing, because you're not left with enough to press any advantage.

Having said all that, stop arguing on a personal level. I don't care for it, and it's not needed in this thread. I'm not bashing you, but as you're trying to convince folks of this imbalance, I am pointing out what exactly that entails, and that you do need to provide visible supporting evidence.

Going to make it my last post on the matter

Please don't clump me in with Schod We're talking about different things!

Yes, in the beginning I was listing ways to defeat the triple Dunov strategy, and they are still valid, because I didn't bind myself to matching FPs. This is where we disagree most, that every fleet makeup needs to be defeatable by some other (and different) equal-FP-cost makeup.

After I realized that you were basically pitting scenarios with equal/about equal FPs against the Dunovs (other than a few cases), I shifted my focus to saying that that's still inconclusive because the ability to win battles does not necessarily mean the ability to win the game, which is also valid.

I also pointed out how some other ship combos can defeat fleets worth more FPs than what you'd spend, to show that Dunovs aren't the only ship that display this behavior.

Ultimately, though, it's the ability to win the game that decides whether or not a particular tactic or strategy is imbalanced or not. If you can win every battle with a fleet, but are unable to capture any planets with the ship choice you make, I just do not consider it a gameplay imbalance, because you need the ability to do both to win.

Sadly this is the underlying problem to the game. Imba is inevitable in games that dont introduce the player skill-dependant wildcard - movement tactics.

RTS Game perfection =
- 50% reliance on the statistical number crunching of clashing units
- 50% reliance on the use of movement tactics to hit more resources of the opponent then he does to you.

So take Homeworld - 50% of the game : important to choose the right units,scout ,eco properly and create a big army , but the other 50% : to split fleets to make multi-directional attack with the focus on damaging economy.

Offcourse in sins its more like.... 100% reliance on who wins the STEAMROLL. You only really start to work on killing resources once you have won the steamroll battle or made the enemy steamroll retreat.

If sins encouraged raiding...

The guy with 3 Dunovs needs his 3 dunovs together(obviously). A guy who makes 3 Kols can split into 3 fleets. So the Kol player has a chance to exploit the fact that the other guy has to rely on one fleet if he can apply skill-dependant movement tactics . One fleet may engage the 3 Dunovs and probably die. But his two other fleets timed to attack simultaoneously have the opportunity to cause enough damage to resources to Equal or Better the loss of one of his fleets. Just wish it worked better in sins...

See how the wild-card of "movement-tactics" can negate such imbalances...


sorry carry on...

While you're being the devils advocate, read the thread through from the start, your own posts included.

Since you so nicely summed up your tests, I'll tell you why they don't mean much to me.

(all ships are at equal levels, full HP, full Shields, and full AM at start of test, all ships position at the edge of a gravity well, usually an asteroid field or asteroid planet, thus a small one. These are only tests I've personally participated in)

First problem, this doesn't happen, ever. You cannot attack the enemy with full antimatter on their own turf, thus any test to see if a 3 dunov rush will defeat your opponent should focus on one of two points. Either they will win on the attack 100 down in antimatter, or they can beat back and chase down a retreating army and kill their capital ships on the run. It's a good setting to test the individual balance of a ship, but even if the dunov is the most powerful ship in the game, it really doesn't matter. As long as the side as a whole cannot defeat the enemy side unfairly, dunovs being overpowered compared to specific things really doesn't matter.

Tests with Paradoxnt:

2 Kols (Level 3s)
2 Marzas (Level 3s)
2 Sovas (Level 3s)
1 Kol 1 Dunov (Level 3 and 4)
1 Marza 1 Dunov (Level 3 and 4)
Equal FP worth of LRMs (Against Level 3 Dunovs)

What, no akkan? Did the dunovs use their draining shots or did you pick shield restore for the loners supporting kols and marzas? How much does buying three dunovs with two levels each cost in comparison to those itty bitty lrm frigates? You made sure your capital ships were at the same level, so the monetary investment obviously matters there, but not for frigates? If the single dunovs used shield restore this list of tests is a list of no brainers that looks as if you designed the tests with failure in mind. It doesn't look like the tests I'd have done to see if they have counters.

200 FP: 2 Desolators (Level 4 and 3) 1 Carrier (Level 3) and Remainder in Missile Frigates (13) against 4 Dunovs (1 Level 4, remainder level 3 160FP)

A test that resembles a sensible matchup. Alas, desolators are planetary defense killers, devastators would have been a better choice. Still, a decent if capital ship heavy with the wrong capital ships test,

Tests with Schod:

2 Antoraks (Level 3 and 4)
Equal FP worth of Vasari Missile Frigates (Against Level 3 Dunovs)
Equal FP and Resources of Vasari Missile Frigates (Against Level 1 Dunovs)

Your irritation began here, these are all retarded tests. You have to be an idiot to try and kill two anything capital ships with two antoraks. Antoraks suck at killing things, period, end of story. Antoraks are to make sure you get away, or the enemy doesn't. Testing to see if an idiot will lose to dunovs is a wee bit... stupid? The equal fleet points and level 1 dunovs test only serve to make even more obvious that using equal fleet points with unequal resources is a braindead way to be checking balance. It only costs twice as much, that shouldn't mean it will win against your fleet! You can get about eight torpedo frigates for the roughly equal price of one level 1 dunov. You can get a few more out of the level upgrades. Knock one off for the cost of upgrading an extra asteroid and call it good at 12 a piece. The "this needs research argument" you pulled earlier was icing on the cake. Who'd have thunk, the guy needs two labs to research missile frigates. How many labs do you need to have three dunovs again? I call this cherry picking, that cost is ok, this cost means you're trying to kill them with an advantage. I'd have written you off normally, but you're usually not a willfully blind idiot trying to remove anything you don't like so I'm still waiting for something logical out of you.

To date only the last test succeeded in beating the Dunovs. By beating I mean they destroyed the Dunovs, they even had about 2/3rds of the force left. This is what Schod is raving about, which is fine, perhaps its a good sign, but its not more realistic than the others since you will very very rarely see 2 level 1s involved in a fight like this.

I do like that paragraph, it can be used. When will you ever see any of your tests in a game? It's not more realistic, it's a crappy test of something dumb just like the other two are. Seriously.

Tests I want to try:

2 Evacuators with 10 Frigates VS 2 Dunovs with 10 Frigates (since you insist this will matter, but I fail to see how it will if both sides have equal FP and Resources)

Frigates are supposed to be around because antoraks don't do real well in the damage department, they are support ships, kinda like dunovs are supposed to be? The frigates are largely irrelevant here, it will actually help the dunovs. The evacuators will have to use their ability on the dunovs and eat their hulls away. The frigates will need to just kill the enemy frigates while the dunovs and support should be centering all fire on one evacuator, hoping to kill it before a dunov drops. They only need to kill one, so it should be a no brainer. Even if you can circle fast enough to stay out of the firing point, you can't with a gravity warhead up your tailpipe. They only need half their antimatter to do the job. The added damage of the frigates might tip the balance and destroy an evacuator too soon, leaving two dunovs to circle an evacuator with too little antimatter to get the job done. On the upside, the evacuators are going to be shooting the frigates too when they can.

2 Antoraks with 10 Frigates versus 2 Dunovs with 10 Frigates, or perhaps 3 Dunovs.

You want one antorak to disable one dunov while something else kills the second, this can be an equal cost in torpedo frigates, or one of the punishing capital ships. You do not want another marauder to kill the free dunov. This is where autocast becomes an issue by the way. While phased, you can't select abilities, thus you can't have your shield restore ready and waiting. On autocast, you can probably get one off before being phased back out again. The antorak user is going to be hovering just waiting to put you back in. The logistics are clear, autocast or no cast if being repeatedly phased back out. With two of course it's going to still pose a problem, but for three dunovs with two antoraks disabling them(you'd want one antorak if you're using two dunovs and accompanying frigates, autocast will utterly suck in that case), the efficiency of autocast will be between 50% and 75%. Half the time they will restore the one getting killed, half the time they will restore damage on each other, with the first one to phase back in possibly only having the primary as an available target.

FP and Resource worth of light carriers vs Dunovs. That will be a interesting one. The only issue is that its much easier to produce the Dunovs earlier than the Light Carriers.

I see this one going badly, but perhaps. Not in a standup fight for sure, a retreating battle after a jump would be a no brainer. No antimatter makes for a dead dunov.

Lastly, any test where dunovs are invincible by running around in circles really isn't that important. You can't run away, bomb planets, destroy infrastructure, or various other things while running in circles. To defeat an asleep at the wheel player yes, but it's a fair test of unit strength, not balance.

Tsed, while true that capital ships are only vaguely similar to frigate counterparts, how vague is a lot less in the case of the marauder. Speed increases make for a damage dealer not. It's a fast, weak ship, in essence a scout, if less weak than the actual scout frigate, comparably not that far off between a marauder and a devastator against a scout and light frigate.

not a big issue per-se, every race will need a counter to 3 dunovs. (or even 2)



Psychoak, you need to read a little more thoroughly, for some reason when you quote a test with 2 Dunovs you write about 3. More importantly, I decided to test the Antoraks because they were suggested by other people. Namely Schod and Annatar.

Not my fault people thought those would work and they didn't. Your main argument is in my ship choices, its called being thorough, who said I was done? Also the proposed tests with frigates are there for the sake of Annatar who insists that the frigates will somehow change the outcome (maybe maybe not) The point is, I'm doing tests, and taking suggestions even. And you know what? I can do that and give feedback without insulting people's intelligence, I suppose I've insulted Schod's ego, but not his intelligence.

Oh and desolator vs devastator... I forget which is which by name but I chose the siege one at any rate, if you look at its stats it has all its weapons capable of shooting forward, but the missiles for Vasari turn so well that it hardly matters, so it can dish out max firepower on a single target and not care about 'circle' running. More importantly it was chosen due to its phase missiles being capable of bypassing shields... that Should be a logical choice just as missile frigates are. And regardless a force of that size and style should have been able to kill one Dunov, it couldn't.



I like this one, it makes me think that maybe I shouldn't think your being an utter jack-ass for no reason. But seriously who took the jelly out of your dough-nut? or do you usually just communicate in such a vulgar way with people you'll never meet in real life?

Chill, you don't like the tests, I get it. But seriously chill.


PS: Paradoxnt wanted to start with pairings of capitals, and go through every combo, extremes were natural choices, the Evacuators don't seem to offend you so much, but they are really no different than possible other choices in terms of diversity. Just havn't gotten to the Akkan yet.


You need to read the thread more thoroughly, I already stated most of that, and most of your points are at least a little off in details. Why are you taking something this simple so personally. If its so 'retarded' then why worry about it? Certainly the Devs are intelligent enough people to recognize what they would deem 'retarded' though unlike you they would be a bit classier about it. So where is the great big hurry and worry here?

Seriously your making Schod look good, do you really want to give his ego that boost? (Just kidding Schod)

Important balance principle: Just because something is counterable doesn't mean it's balanced. Shield boosting could cost 1 antimatter and give 5000 shielding, and you could still beat Dunovs with shield-penetrating weapons. The difficulty players have defeating stacked Dunovs indicates to me that a change is needed.

Gang - let's try to keep the cursing in check, please.