I agree that the money used for the stadium wasn't actually out of the transportation fund, and that example isn't ideal, but taxpayers are in fact footing the lion's share of the cost. It's still tax dollars that could have been better spent.

Where priorities are truly falling short is in building new roads and other transportation such as a light rail in Minneapolis that connects a mall to downtown, when they aren't maintaining the system already in place.

I refuse to accept the idea that they need to take even more money away from us until they can properly manage the money they are already getting and can prove they really do need more instead of simply spending the money they have on the right things.

In the end maybe more is needed, maybe not, but until the current funds are spent properly giving them more is like giving more crack to a junkie hoping it will make them sober again.

Where priorities are truly falling short is in building new roads and other transportation such as a light rail in Minneapolis that connects a mall to downtown, when they aren't maintaining the system already in place. I refuse to accept the idea that they need to take even more money away from us until they can properly manage the money they are already getting and can prove they really do need more instead of simply spending the money they have on the right things.

I agree completely with yourself and others in this regard, that the priorities need to be right to begin with, but setting these priorities is never easy.

I don't want to give the Pols a pass here, but I know in the D.C. area there are always fights to get more money to extend the Metro system into areas it didn't already go to.  That happens even though the system needs lots and lots of money just for upkeep on the existing tracks and stations (and railcars, etc.).  Some people can look at those cries and plans for building new stations (as an example, plans to run track out to Tysons Corner, an uppity shopping district with high class shopping mall(s), etc.) and demand that no building be done there until after more is spent to fix the existing system but, ya know what?  running new track to Tysons could help to spur ridership of the mass transit system and help to get thosands of cars off the already crowded roadways, saving thousands of gallons of gasoline each year (which, uh, yeah, by the way would mean even less gasoline tax money coming into government coffers.  A nice little negative unintended consequence of helping to save the environment and keep from importing more fuel) and helping to keep the air in the area cleaner.

In the Tysons Corner/Northern Virginia area air quality is a huge concern, and getting more people to ride Metro, a system that uses electricity to power the rail cars, would be a great thing.  Getting cars off the road there and helping to speed traffic along for those that would still be forced to drive for various reasons is a good thing.  So, who is really to say that building out Metro to serve that area is really not a priority?

Personally, I'd like to see Metro built out more into areas of Prince Georges County, MD.  Out into Bowie and Crofton, MD.  Into areas where thousands more cars would come off the roads.  But again, there would be unintended consequences of less gasoline tax coming in, over crowding of the metro trains and eventually there would be the need for billions of dollars to go to Metro to cover the up-keep of the system as it just gets bigger and bigger.

Sure the costs to ride the system could be increased and the riders could be forced to help pay more which should help to keep the system fiscally solvent and self sustaining, but there are unintended consequences with that too as you'd force people back into cars and away from Metro when the costs got too unbalanced.

Like I said, there are no easy answers.  We do need our priorities right, and giving money to the problem just to give money is stupid.  But, I do believe that we have serious issues with how much money we are collecting for transportation needs.  Like a lot of other things money related in this country our Pols haven't indexed the taxes that are raised to account for inflation, and by not doing so they are stuck facing a tax increase that they must vote on whenever one is necessary.  That is something they really don't want to do.  If, however, they had already set the taxes up to index for inflation, then we would probably already have seen many automatic tax increases that would have helped feed the transportation trust fund and kept it completely solvent.  That would also likely have had the side effect of helping to push even more drivers away from larger vehicles and towards more fuel efficient vehicles, and that too isn't such a bad thing.  (Despite my own feelings that I'd rather be driving a Ford Explorer than a Geo Metro/Suzuki Swift type vehicle.)

Up to now indexing them for inflation hasn't been necessary due to the ever increasing number of vehicles on the road every year, and thus more of that tax revenue coming in. There are now more vehicles on the roads than every before, which of course is why our thirst for fuels is higher than ever before.

You are correct that there are no easy answers, and I certainly don't pretend otherwise. But I still maintain that before saying "Please sir, may I have some more." they'd damn well best shape up and prove that they can be responsible with what they're already getting.

I do not know the inner workings of Mn, but I can tell you that something is very wrong in this state.  When we have the largest tax increase in history - and then run over a billion dollar surplus, and then they come back and want another tax increase on top of that (and the surplus).

Perhaps we are doing too well in conserving fuel, which in turn is reducing the gas tax.  But then when you are taxing cars when bouth, licenses each year, and taxes upon taxes upon taxes to own and operate a vehicle, it is time to stop thinking you can squirrell the money you get from one source into pet pork, while demanding ever higher and higher taxes to pay for the needs of the society.

I agree, it is not a lack of money (taxes), but an incompetance and indeed even a scandal that money is wasted on feel good things that accomplish little or nothing at the expense of the primary duty of the states.

Yup.

Well, you know, I learned about that in Macroeconomics class. And we all know the difference between macroeconomists and microeconomists.

Terpfan1980 said:

Like I said, there are no easy answers. We do need our priorities right, and giving money to the problem just to give money is stupid. But, I do believe that we have serious issues with how much money we are collecting for transportation needs. Like a lot of other things money related in this country our Pols haven't indexed the taxes that are raised to account for inflation, and by not doing so they are stuck facing a tax increase that they must vote on whenever one is necessary. That is something they really don't want to do.

MasonM said:

Up to now indexing them for inflation hasn't been necessary due to the ever increasing number of vehicles on the road every year, and thus more of that tax revenue coming in. There are now more vehicles on the roads than every before, which of course is why our thirst for fuels is higher than ever before.

The only problem with the idea that there are more and more vehicles on the roads is that those same vehicles add that much more to the abuse and use that the roads must take and give up.  More vehicles means more weight, which runs more groves into the pavement, etc.  Heavier vehicles do the same, and there for a good while everybody and their mothers, fathers, grandfathers and grandmothers were driving around in SUVs that were even bigger than what was originally envisioned to be driving on the road ways.

MasonM added:

You are correct that there are no easy answers, and I certainly don't pretend otherwise. But I still maintain that before saying "Please sir, may I have some more." they'd damn well best shape up and prove that they can be responsible with what they're already getting.

Agreed.  It would be nice to see the money that is collected get spent on needs rather than wants, and it would also be smart to have the money spent on real long term solutions, rather than patches upon patches, but I doubt that will ever change because it costs too darn much to do the job right the first time (in the eyes of the Pols and bean counters) when compared to simply paying for patches and doing the same thing each successive year.

Dr. Guy wrote:

I do not know the inner workings of Mn, but I can tell you that something is very wrong in this state. When we have the largest tax increase in history - and then run over a billion dollar surplus, and then they come back and want another tax increase on top of that (and the surplus). Perhaps we are doing too well in conserving fuel, which in turn is reducing the gas tax. But then when you are taxing cars when bouth, licenses each year, and taxes upon taxes upon taxes to own and operate a vehicle, it is time to stop thinking you can squirrell the money you get from one source into pet pork, while demanding ever higher and higher taxes to pay for the needs of the society. I agree, it is not a lack of money (taxes), but an incompetance and indeed even a scandal that money is wasted on feel good things that accomplish little or nothing at the expense of the primary duty of the states.

I know that at least several issues are at play in Virginia, though I understand almost none of what really goes on there myself.

I do know that the civil remedial fees that are being attempted to be levied against abusive drivers (in-state only so far, not applicable to out-of-state drivers) are being levied because the state apparently can't find the money to fund road construction projects.  These fees were created as fees, rather than labelled as fines, because the state's laws say that money from fines must go toward specific ear-marks of other types: schools, education, etc.

So, if you are a reasonable, intelligent, individual and you expect that fines paid for your transgressions when driving on the road would help pay for roads, well, nope, sorry that won't happen.

As you get further North in Virginia, especially up near D.C. you find that the roadways are a friggin' mess.  There are just far too many vehicles on the road ways, spewing too much exhaust, and going no where because there are lines and lines of vehicles in front of those vehicles.  More roads are needed, but in order to build more roads you need to buy the land or take the land from the current owners (which still requires that you compensate them).  Then you have to get the materials for the roads and put those materials down to form the road which requires expensive labor to perform that dirty work.

In a recent article I put up a summary of just how much it costs - in tens of millions of dollars - to build sections of roadway.  Suffice it to say it ain't cheap.  More expensive in high cost of living areas such as Northern Virginia (NoVa is no where like Montana or South Dakota where you could lay down highway and keep rolling it out for next to nothing, relatively speaking).

Since the funds that go towards transportation are so carefully selected, the funds don't see the income levels that the state and local governments need to do the construction.  Plus there are the legal fights and expensive buy-outs for the people that don't want to give up their homes, or their back yards, to building roadways.   Which adds more to the costs of the roads, etc.

Like I said, I actually feel sorry for the Pols on this issue because the right thing likely is to go ahead and raise taxes, but getting tax increases past the public as that same public watches the price they pay for gallons of milk increase, and the price they pay for meat increasing, etc., isn't going to be easy.  Not to mention the fact that one persons unnecessary ear-mark for a road or bridge project is another persons absolute need, and well, you get the idea.

I'll offer another quick example here: look at the BRAC related spending going on near Ft. Meade Maryland, and Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland.  Look at the BRAC related spending going on near Ft. Belvoir in Northern Virginia too.  In both states the states and feds have had to find money to build roads to handle increased traffic flow at these bases.  These bases are absorbing personnel and operations from other places and to do so they need to build these new entrances to the bases, new exit ramps off Parkways, etc.  These are all ear-marks that Babs Mik. and James Webb and co. would be slipping into spending bills.  To people in MN or MI, these are not necessary items, but to the people that live and work around these places, this spending isn't a waste at all and is absolutely vital.

Take those ear-marks away and you save a few pennies per dollar that is needed to help take care of the road systems in this country.

So, while it would be good to help eliminate ear-marks, the same old rules about one person's pork being another person's main meal still apply.

I do know that the civil remedial fees that are being attempted to be levied against abusive drivers (in-state only so far, not applicable to out-of-state drivers) are being levied because the state apparently can't find the money to fund road construction projects. These fees were created as fees, rather than labelled as fines, because the state's laws say that money from fines must go toward specific ear-marks of other types: schools, education, etc.

You are a little behind the times.  To date, 3 GDCs have ruled the fees unconstitutional.  In other words, that boondoggle is going away!

But second, you still did not address why the 1.2b dollar surplus cannot be used for the roads (but to your credit, you did specify your lack of overall knowledge of the workings of the state).

And finally, just as an aside, I am surprised that more liberals are not at least reading and enjoying this.  To see a conservative, Terpfan1980, going for taxes and against the other conservatives is not an everyday occurance.  And other than Col Klink, none seem interested.  Could it be that you are destroying their ignorant bigotry about conservatives?  And they are in shock and denial?

Seems you're a little slow on the uptake which is really no surprise. Take your meds, return to your padded cell, and keep your insane ideas to yourself. Bush isn't responsible for the ails of the world, get over it.

In other words, fuck off Gene, your insane ideology isn't welcome here.

Some people are so damn paranoid. I wonder if he actually sleeps with himself?

Good question. I doubt it. He probably lies awake at night worrying that Bush is going to sneak in and slit his throat.