Ryanman

Join Date 07/2007

Questions about Sins

Homeworld Veterans Please reply

I've been debating whether or not to risk my hard-earned money to hopeully get a jump in on Beta 3.
I've been scanning gaming sites for months now, waiting on information about Sins since it was announced. The reason, for all intensive puposes, is Homeworld.
I've never been good at strategy games, never beat a single one in fact because the campaigns got so boring. Except for Homeworld. The story was absolutely amazing, the graphics are still pleasing. The haunting music, great AI, and most of all the gut-wrenching combat made me beat it, and then play skirmishes (never got the internet to work on my old computer) for hundreds of hours.
I liked how the units were different, how the rock-paper-scissors combat worked perfectly every time.

I've been waiting for a better successor than Homeworld 2, a new 3D space RTS that could capture what made Homeworld great. With the addition of empire building (Civilization is another favorite of mine) I thought this game would be the answer to my prayers.

With the IGN interview though, and the information that the z axis was controlled by AI, my heart was broken. I'm a tactics lover - I'll take strategy any day but tactics should be an important part of any RTS game, in my opinion. I've also heard that the ships are a little slow to everyone's liking and there's not a whole lot of difference between the classes of ships.

So I have to ask you all a question: Is the combat fun? Does it live up to Homeworld's? Does the omission of Zaxis control remove a lot of what makes 3D RTS's fun? Most of all, do you think that this game/beta will live up to my expectations? I'm not going to lie, they are high but I think if anyone can do it it's stardock. I've heard nothing but good things about all of their games, and I hope that they can make this a game I can love almost a decade after it's release like Homeworld.

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As I have only played beta 2 for a total of 3 hours, in my opion the combat sucked. Very slow and the combat AI when you first drop into a system is to attack anything and do it individually.
Also, have noticed if you decide to build your race instead of exploring the first 3 or 4 dozen turns, the bounty on your head goes thourgh the roof, and if you hit any system with another AI in it, they have a minium of 10 units there to nail you as well as getting replacements to the battle faster than I can at least get mine there.
Just my opion

Glenn

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Z axis in Sins is AI controlled yes, but you can use the Z axis by holding down the "~" key and moving. It's done that way so you can move on that axis if you want. Each ship in the game has a unique use. I'm not sure where you saw the infomation on everything being similar. As for combat. The AI in sins is still being worked on. The game is still in beta, and we are relying on feedback right now from our many testers to improve the game. Hope this helps. There are many testers in Sins who are really enjoying the game too. Keep an open mind if you do get into the beta. Everyones opinions are worth looking into.

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I'm not going to respond to your main point (impartiality and all that) but I did want to point out that there IS z-axis control in the game. Maybe the tutorials should make it more obvious.

Edit: Ergh. Tristan by a nose.

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Blair Fraser

Join Date 10/2006

+292

Edited by Blair: lol, psugar and tristan both must have been typing their resposnes at the same time as me haha.

Hi Ryanman,

This is from the interview: "While it's still a work in progress, the current state is that the Sins AI takes care of any z-axis movement so controlling units is very easy but there is an optional advanced user interface for those who want to delve into more complex operations."

Basically, the z movement is controlled the same as Homeworld except we don't draw a circle on the plane (because there already is a gravity well plane) and the activation key is ~ (tilde) instead of shift. We still have a lot of work to do on tactical play as well, the multiplayer beta tests will help a lot with this.

Some people are saying the ships are too slow but there are also people saying they are too fast (or the equivalent of saying the gravity wells are too small). This is under review as always and we'll have it nailed down by February.

I find the classes of ships quite different and I think once people play multiplayer it will become more obvious and certainly with more feedback we'll be improving them. The problem right now is the AI doesn't know how to take advantage of the classes very well (yet!).

I will admit, it is beta and there are problems and most importantly in your case - it isn't Homeworld 3 and wasn't intended to be. As much as we loved Homeworld (especially HW:Cataclysm) we wanted to create something new though we were definately inspired by Homeworld and other great games.

Despite the problems, I've probably read through more feedback on Sins than anyone in the world (this forum, many other forums, phone calls, media and private emails) and the overwhelming majority of people are really enjoying the game (even in its beta state) and they really enjoy the ability to have a say in the final product.

The question of whether to jump in is really based on your personality I guess. I'm someone who got tired of buying games that didn't meet my expectations but it was always too late to do anything about it because the game was already made. Even if I didn't buy it because the reviews were horrible I still always felt disappointed because the game had so much potential and I was so excited to try it. So it isn't just about the money I would have wasted but also a psychological let-down. These days chances are I'm going to buy any game I'm excited about anyways so it's great for someone like me to spend that money early and have a chance to influence the final product so it doesn't let me down - but this strategy isn't for everyone.

If you do decide to wait, I hope you give it a shot once its out because at the rate things are progressing it's going to be really fun

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what blair said

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Multianna

Join Date 10/2006

+10

Hey Ryanman

As tristan said, you will be able to use the "~" key to go into 3D movement. Though i never used it, but then again i might not be as good thinking about tactics as you are

Blair has said the 3D movement has some advantages, but i cant remember them right now

If you havent seen the game in action you should gameplay videos, and specialy part 6 of beta2 where i attack the AI from 2 sides, since you are into tactics

edit:
waa im too slow

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lordkosc

Join Date 12/2006

As it stands now the 3d movement aspect offers no tactical bonus I can see, hence I leave it alone...

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Ah I misunderstood the interview a bit I guess.
The only way to really judge myself is to get in the beta, I know. I'm glad that you CAN controll the z axis (once again, actually being in the beta would have helped a lot)
Even if it's not exactly what I expected, the game still combines the only parts of strategy games I like. From what I've seen in the forums, you haven't watered down the empire building elements at all.
The whole reason I even care enough to make this post is because I was actually pretty excited about Genesis Rising - but only heard about it right when they released their beta (more of a PR thing then to actually improve the game, unlike these betas). It definitely wasn't what I was looking for - I'm sure some people enjoyed it but it wasn't my cup of tea.

If I decide to actually get into the beta instead of spewing out questions and n00b opinions, you can expect me to be on the forums a lot more. Thanks for the replies guys.

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The ~ key does not currently work to enable movement on the Z-axis, well at least from my attempts but an hour ago. In another thread one user suggests that the 'z' key can be used instead--but i've yet to try it.

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There are a couple of things that you have to do to make your ships fly off the plane:

1)Use the move button. You can't do it with right-clicking. Either click the move button on the HUD, or use the hotkey (default is "D")

2)Move the move indicator (the triangle) to wherever you want your ship to end up with respect to the x and y directions (ie, on the plane).

3)Hold down the tilde ("~") key, on my keyboard this is also the "`" key. While holding it down, slide your mouse around and watch the triangle lift or lower from the plane.

4)When you have the location chosen, click the left mouse button to complete the move order.

Does that not work? We may have to be more explicit about how this works in the tutorial or something.

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I can't remember the last time I clicked the "move" icon in an RTS. IMO, if 3D movement isn't accessible via the RMB, it's not going to get used. Here's my suggestion on how to work it:

1) Move your cursor to your desired position on the X-Y plane.
2) Push and hold tilde (~), which instantly fixes the X-Y position and allows you to move the mouse up and down to select Z position.
3) Right-click at your desired Z position.

That's it. If you pushed tilde at the wrong time and indicated the wrong X-Y location, just let go, and start over without clicking.

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RonLugge

Join Date 05/2004

+50

How about...

1) Press and hold the "Z axis key"
2) Press and hold RMB on the desired X,Y co-ordinates
3) Move it up and down and watch the arrow move

Slightly easier to deal with, IMO

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Ron, your scheme works, but it's less compatible with the standard "hold down the RMB and move the mouse to determine facing" for group moves.

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RonLugge

Join Date 05/2004

+50

Ron, your scheme works, but it's less compatible with the standard "hold down the RMB and move the mouse to determine facing" for group moves.

True, but since this game doesn't use facing yet...

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That's a good suggestion, Therax... investigating.

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