What's Wrong with Abstinence?

KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

What's Wrong with Abstinence?

Should it be taught in the schools?

I spent some time last night at the school board meeting. There has been some heated controversy the last few months about teaching abstinence to the middle school students here. Right now they are being taught what the state recommends, and it's not an abstinence based program. So a group of parents have been making a statement armed with good documentation and organization. They are asking the school if they will consider teaching an alternative to what the state recommends for the parents who are trying to teach their children abstaining until marriage.

Boy, what a pandora box has been opened with this topic. We are talking 11-13 year olds. It's hard to believe but they are sexually active during this age. I was shocked when my kids were in this school years ago and found this to be true.

Anyway an abstinence group came in to give a presentation. They are currently in some school systems across the country and have been very successful in getting the kids to delay either their first sexual encounter or to wait entirely for marriage. The numbers have been very encouraging. They do an entry and exit survey before and after the program. Their findings show the kids are thinking very seriously about what they were taught with an increased number ending the program with the decision it's best to wait in comparison to the begininng when they were unsure and more likely to engage earlier.

The school board allowed an hour for this presentation and it was quite interesting to watch. This was my first meeting, and I could tell immediately who on the school board was disgusted and who was not by watching them. For some, their minds were not going to change by the look on their faces. They hardly looked at the booklets and paperwork passed out prior to the presentation. There was a reporter there as well taking notes. It will be front page when it comes out.

As I slid into my seat, a nurse friend whispered in my ear, "the name calling has begun." I guess these parents are being called right wingers among other things. I have signed on and will join the effort. I'll now be on that list.

The Heritage Foundation's mission is to try and help with behavior instead of dealing with the aftermath of the behavior. The presentation was very detailed, organized and articularly presented. They had it all done with Powerpoint compared to the school's presentation last week which was totally unorganized and overhead projector was used. There were nurses on both sides here who were being used as spokeswomen along the way.

The main spokesperson was the President of the Heritage Foundation, but then later a man who was probably in his 30's got up to speak. He would be an instructor along with the nurse who was with him. He made a good point. He said he never heard of abstinence as a young man and was always told when he asked about sex that "when he was ready" he'd know. So he'd always ask...."am I ready?" When he was in his 20's, he asked, "am I ready now?" He was never told it was best to wait until marriage. It was never clear to him. He wants the kids to be able to hear that alternative. They are not hearing this in the state's sex ed curriculums now.

This all came about because about a year ago there was a "health fair" at the HS. At that fair a Clinic was there and were handing out free condoms. Prizes were given out for any that would put a condom on a wooden structure built just for this type of thing. A kid on the sly went and video taped the whole thing. You can hear the coaxing by the adult in charge and very clearly can see the hesitation and embarrasment of the kids. They were being shown different flavored condoms and encouraged to taste them even. It was pretty disturbing. The condoms were being passed out like candy, and on the video you could see full buckets of condoms free for the taking.

This video made it right to the Principal's office. The few parents involved in this were enraged. This could not be broadcasted because the kids faces were shown and since this could cause some problems the video didn't go too far. I saw the video. It was very upsetting. I felt our kids were being sold down the river and my kids were not involved since they are now gone from the school system. Thank God.

What shocked me even more were the school board members who were enraged. They said things like...."I'm not going to tell my son to wait until marriage and I don't want anyone else to either." "If our kids want to have sex, it's their decision." Hello?

I don't get it. My question is .....Why is it bad to encourage your child to wait until marriage? What's wrong with giving them the alternative to what is currently being taught by letting them know it's ok to wait ? Is it that bad to tell them they don't have to do what everyone else is doing? As I see it, the bar should be lifted, and it's good for all involved. Afterall we're talking 11 year olds. Am I missing something?

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The thing is, though, that sex education in schools has not hindered the spread of STDs. Diseases such as chlamydia and gonnorhea have been on the rise for years; the highest instances of which being observed in 15-19 year olds - school age (just check out the facts on the Center for Disease Control). Just two years ago I was enrolled in a (required) college health course at a large, reputable university. The text actually included a section dedicated to abstinence, but did we study it? Of course not. The material was simply skipped, and never tested on. Instead we spent an entire day studying graphic images of these diseases on a computer slide show, after which the "professor" brought various birth control devices (condoms, IUDs, BCPs, etc...) into the lecture hall, and proceeded to LICK the flavored condoms herself in front of over 150 students! You had better believe that a large lecture of college aged individuals found this to be a riot when their 50-something teacher was demonstrating the use of flavored condoms. What a way to encourage students to engage in something reckless. The professor was not only acting extremely irresponsibly (and WAY out of line), she was cheapening sex for what it really is. It's one thing for schools to teach disease control and awareness; it's an entirely different animal when said schools take advantage of young minds (particularly preteens, and HS aged), and run recklessly in a "sex is a fun game, here are the tools" direction. Willing parents can only compete for so long when a school their child is suppose to trust and respect is teaching something so different than what they are learning at home. Sooner or later the child is going to remember what he laughed about with his buddies at school, and how much fun it sounded, that - particularly in the context of an already curious age group - is when never learning abstinence in schools becomes dangerous.

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Yep.

Abstinence has come to be associated with religion. Specifically Christianity. The schools are going to resist teaching anything that is even remotely tied to religion.

I understand that since the bible has been translated into modern English they're going to stop teaching English classes too.

Out of the mouths of babes! That is oh so true, and sad. I could not say it better. It is the epitomy of what is going on. It has nothing to do with kids. It has everything to do with fear (not separation) of religion.

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agree with this, but does sex-ed need to begin at 11 y/o?

Yes it does Xythe. I have seen too many at that age engaged in sexual activities. I dont like it, and I dont approve of it. But it is happening.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

Exactly Amanda. Everything you said was true.

That is exactly what is happening in the HS level as well. Sex is mocked and de valued and the kids have no idea what they are playing around with. The state claims also they teach abstinence as part of their program but we've seen here they also practically skip over it as nonesense. What is bothersome is the push to get our kids in these programs making sure they get the needed materials. They are building clientel IMO.

What we're trying to do here is offer an alternative. We are fighting for a piece of the pie so to speak. It all comes down to follow the money trail. If we can get abstinence in the school system as others have it's been shown the clinics don't do the business they did before this program comes into the school. It gives the kids an alternative the State is not accounting for. They figure they're going to "do it" anyway so we might as well get with the program and help them.

I heard an owner of three abortion clinics brag that when they went into the school systems, business sky rocketed. I've heard this more than once. People need to wake up. Our kids are being used as pawns for others to make money. It's disguised as tho they are concerned for their well being but it's all a lie. I'm absolutely sure of that.

As far as what's going on in the schools the parents really have no idea. Like the clinics that show up at school at these health fairs. The parents are not made aware. We were not told about this. It leaked out by a couple of kids and the video was proof of what went on that day. BTW, the HS health teacher (totally immoral by our standards) was seen on this video as well laughing as the kids were being goaded into trying these condoms flavors. She's also the HS basketball coach. It made me sick to see a young 14 year old girl in the front of the crowd on the video watching what was going on and being encouraged by the local HS teacher (what we saw on the video) who was smiling as if she was giving her assent.

I have seen too many at that age engaged in sexual activities. I dont like it, and I dont approve of it. But it is happening.

Yes, this is true. I was shocked when my kids were in the middle school and I was told the 6th graders were having sex. I'm not kidding when I say I almost fell off my chair.

The following paragraph is from the lady who is the forerunner in our campaign. She sent me this portion of an email the day after the meeting and totally backs up what Amanda, above mentioned.

The state's sex ed curriculum, aka Comprehensive Family Life education, teaches kids to use contraceptives or condoms when they decide to fornicate and the HF program teaches skills to abstain from sexual activity until marriage. I did a little research and can state unequivacally that the proponents of state sex ed (who claim they "are making a positive difference in our state's youth"), have failed miserably insofar as the growing rate of STDs and STIs in the teen population. They totally ignore the fact that STDs, particularly chlamydia has steadily risen in this state's teens from 1,474 in 2000 to 2,113 in 2004.

Was anyone actually saying that abstinence should not be taught or were they rather saying that abstinence should not be EXCLUSIVELY taught?

Well there was a prior vote two months or so ago before these presentations in which the board voted 7-6 NOT in favor of including an abstinence program. On Oct 11 we will re convene for another vote. Even tho we don't get to vote (only the SB does) We plan on packing the school this time to show how important this is. We already submitted a petition with 129 names on it asking for a program to be instituted. It would be, I believe, a 10 week program.

I can't see why they can't have one semester with the current system and the other semester with the abstinence based program with the kids and their parents making the decision which one they would go into. That makes sense to me. It would be very interesting which class would be most requested.

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I could be completely wrong on who Amanda is, but if I am correct, I might suggest that she take the plank out of her own eye before discussing the splinter in the eye of another. I'm specifically referring to the comment on "reckless behavior". (My advance apologies if I am wrong about who Amanda is).

Also, KFC--please explain to me what you would teach in an abstinence program that could possibily take an entire semester--that seems patently ridiculous to me.

"Abstinence--the only 100% effective method for both birth control and protecting yourself from an STD." What else, pray tell, could you possibly include that wouldn't fit better in a church sermon than a class room lecture?

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

The Abstinence program as presented by the abstinence people I believe they said was a 10 week program. They do different things to help the kids understand the seriousness behind their actions. I believe each class is 45 minutes in length but am unclear as to how many times a week. It may be once a week but again am not sure. I guess it depends on how the school structures their classes. I know in this school they go every other day with classes and one day with all classes shortened.

I imagine it would or could be a regular health class with the "sex ed" part only a portion of the whole program just like health is now with the same material just a different perspective. Or maybe it's geared to only be the "sex ed" part and nothing else. I remember when my kids were in their younger years I took them out of the "sex ed" part of the health class and it was like 6 weeks. I didn't have this alternative. I can't remember if it was a once a week program or not now. I imagine every school is different.

When they gave their material to the school board the other night it was quite comprehensive. They covered all sorts of things. They had a workbook. I had to leave a bit early so I didn't get to see the entire workbook units covered, but they were going thru them one by one. One thing I remember them saying is they play a dice game. When the kids throw the dice the numbers mean a certain thing like an STD, AIDS or unplanned pregnancy etc.

The whole messge is not a quick "don't do it" lesson but one that equips them for saying no and helps them understand the reasons why it's better for them to wait.

As far as "Amanda" goes. I do not know who this Amanda is but she was right on.

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Thanks for the clarification on the program--like I said earlier, I don't have a problem with teaching abstinence, but I think it should be part of a comprehensive program.

Clearly, I was wrong on Amanda's identity--so I apologize.

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I understand that since the bible has been translated into modern English they're going to stop teaching English classes too.

haha.
11 years old is disturbing. we didn't have anything like that when i was 11. there were no sexually active 6th graders running around my classroom. that scares me that there are now.

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In theory, I agree with you. But unfortunately an abstinence-only program is fraught with the denial of reality.

The reality is that kids are having sex. YOUNG kids. The school I teach in is K-5, and I bet that some of the 5th graders have had sex. It wouldn't shock me at all anymore.

Another reality is that lots of parents don't feel comfortable talking to their kids about sex, so the schools are expected to pick up the slack, as they are in most cases where parents don't give a crap. So...in order to "please everyone," the schools take a middle-of-the-road approach. They teach that abstinence is probably the best way to go, but if you're going to have sex, here are your options. Here are some of the physical/emotional risks if you choose to engage in sexual activity.

For those parents that care, they can choose to pull their kids from the sex ed curriculum portion in elementary school, and address the issues at home. I remember when I was in elementary school lots of families did that.

When my husband and I have children, I think that we'll discuss these topics with our kids before they go to sex ed class, and then let them take the class. I'm glad that we can honestly tell our kids that we waited until we were married and that we think it was a really good decision.

But the reality is that I can't FORCE my kids not to have sex. I want them to wait until they're married, because I know the physical and emotional repercussions that can come from sex without that commitment, and I don't want them to have to deal with that. But I have to let them live their lives, too. And above anything else, i want my kids to feel comefortable enough to come to me with ANY concerns or questions they have on the topic.

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Zoomba

Join Date 11/2002

+114

As has been mentioned before in the thread, absitnence as a portion of the sex ed curriculum is a good thing. It's the only 100% fool-proof way to avoid STDs and unwanted pregnancy. I think it definitely belongs in schools. My problem is those who want it to be the ONLY sex-ed method. It may be the only 100% safe way, but it completely and totally ignores the reality we live in. Kids have sex, it's a fact that can not be changed by telling them not to do it in a classroom. And if kids are going to be having sex, at the very least I want them armed with the proper knowledge on how to ensure at least SOME safety. Abstinence as a portion of sex ed: GOOD Abstinence as the ONLY sex-ed: BAD

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Abstinence has come to be associated with religion. Specifically Christianity. The schools are going to resist teaching anything that is even remotely tied to religion

Bingo!!! It's not just schools either, there are a lot of people who simply stop listening as soon as they realize Christianity is involved in a concept or idea.

Perhaps if abstinence was presented in a different way it might go over better. Most of the fans of abstinence I've come across don't want to talk or hear about other methods of birth control, they just want to push abstinence...and I think that's another reason why they get rejected. Some kids are going to want to have sex before they're married, and they NEED to know about forms of birth control and how to have safe sex. Simply telling them 'wait until you're married' and leaving it at that is not enough; it leaves them unprepared and in a certain amount of danger (IMO; they're at greater risk of unplanned pregnancy and contracting STD's).

Abstinence is a wonderful thing, but so are condoms and the birth control pill.

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Some kids are going to want to have sex before they're married, and they NEED to know about forms of birth control and how to have safe sex. Simply telling them 'wait until you're married' and leaving it at that is not enough; it leaves them unprepared and in a certain amount of danger (IMO; they're at greater risk of unplanned pregnancy and contracting STD's).

Abstinence is a wonderful thing, but so are condoms and the birth control pill.

I think we need to remember that kids carry this knowledge with them for a lifetime, too. You need to teach about options other than abstinence because some kids MIGHT need the knowledge when they get married, or when they're in their 20's or 30's even. It's not just a "now" thing.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

keep in mind here, we are not trying to REPLACE the state sponsored curriculum but only want to be able to have an alternative for those parents and their kids who are teaching something different than the school is pushing. We don't want our kids putting condoms on a banana...(yes they are doing this in some classes). I feel that in many cases, this type of education is nothing more than encouraging the kids. Abstinence is SUPPOSED to be in the current program but as was stated above it usually gets very little play time if anything at all.

I'm tired of hearing that "kids are going to have sex anyway" so we might as well help them practice safe sex. Let's just lower the bar. They do drugs too, should we start handing out drugs as well. Why not? They are going to do it anyway. I know a few college age kids and 20 somethings that are still waiting for marriage. These kids are not wall flowers either by any stretch but have been taught at home that it's better for them every which way to wait and they chose to do so.

There are some kids that are wearing purity rings as a pledge to their girlfriends/boyfriends and God that they will wait. This goes along with something WyoMoo already said (thanks for your input) about parents not being able to force their kids. These kids have to make the decision for themselves, but we as parents should not lower the bar either and be enccourages to them. Keep the bar raised and let the kids make the decision if they want to meet it there or not. I don't believe in the shrugging of the shoulders and the "well they are going to do it anyway" mentality.

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Abstinence has come to be associated with religion. Specifically Christianity. The schools are going to resist teaching anything that is even remotely tied to religionBingo!!! It's not just schools either, there are a lot of people who simply stop listening as soon as they realize Christianity is involved in a concept or idea.

I'm not really sure where all this comes from. Are Christians the only people that ask their childrend to wait until they are marries before having sex?

Do the Jews endorse sex before marriage?
Does Islam endorse sex before mariage...the Buddists, Hindus?

Maybe some cultists encourage sex before marriage, but I'm just not clear of a religion that asks us not to abstain before marriage.

This is all a bunch of new-aged crap. How on earth did we make it all these years without condoms being tasted and slid onto wooden phalluses in elementary and middle schools?

I tell you what. My daughter comes home from school telling me they had her sucking condoms, and slipping them on wodden c*cks, somebody better look out. Some heads are going to roll.

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If young people do have sex, which schools discourage, they should know about condoms.

Do pre-high school boys and girls need to know what a condom tastes like!? WTF??!

How can anybody advocate this?? You must not have young children in this day and time.

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KFC Kickin For Christ

Join Date 11/2005

+93

If young people do have sex, which schools discourage, they should know about condoms.

that's just it.....the schools ARE NOT discouraging this. It's NOT happening. Middle school kids especially 11 year olds should not know about condoms. Not really. They shouldn't even know about sex. Good Grief, I don't ever remember hearing anything like this when I was in 6th grade.

Some heads are going to roll.

I wish you were here with me to help fight this school board. We need more parents that are willing to stand up.

Do pre-high school boys and girls need to know what a condom tastes like!?

Heck NO!! I don't even need to know. I made it this far and I don't feel like I've missed out. This is really creeping me out and I'm the one who saw the video.

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The opposite of condemnation is not necessarily endorsement. I don't ever remember any Jews, Buddists or Hindus condemning anybody's soul to hell for engaging in premarital sex-- but Christians, oh yea, I've definitely heard it from fellow Christians.

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They shouldn't even know about sex. Good Grief, I don't ever remember hearing anything like this when I was in 6th grade.

You're kidding here right? 11 year olds shouldn't know about sex? So what do you say to a 10 year old girl who has started her period? What reason do you give her for why her body "bleeds" every month?

Obviously every child is different, but when you sheild your kids from what sex is, I think you are asking for trouble. Open dialogue is the best bet--not silence until kids hit some magic age.

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They shouldn't even know about sex. Good Grief, I don't ever remember hearing anything like this when I was in 6th grade.

Well, I do, and I'm not too far away from 40. I remember very well being taught about sex when I was 10. A female teacher explained it to us, along with what to do if we got out period in school without any pads or tampons.

I'm GLAD I talk to my kids about sex and drugs (and rock and roll, as it happens). We have open, honest dialogue, and they can come to me or their dad, ask questions and be given honest, truthful answers. It wasn't that way when I was growing up, my mum gave me a book to read when I asked her about periods at the age of 8 or 9. I had to get my education from the teachers at school, and I said I wouldn't do that to my kids. So, I haven't.

The best I can do as a parent is send my kids out into the world fully informed about as much as I can. The worst thing a parent can do (IMO) is 'shelter' them and try to control every single thing. The fallout from that kind of control can be just awful - ask my mom! (kidding) Seriously, I've seen some people with trainwrecks for lives, and they're usually the folks who were controlled and uber-managed when they were kids. They just went wild with excesses when they finally freed themselves from direct parental influence and ended up with some real issues because of it.

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the schools ARE NOT discouraging this. It's NOT happening. Middle school kids especially 11 year olds should not know about condoms. Not really. They shouldn't even know about sex.

Umm...I beg to differ. My school discouraged sex, but never taught us safe sex. The thing is...grade school kids know about sex, maybe not all the intricacies...but they know about it. I did when I was in grade school. And if one knows about sex, then they need to know about safe sex. Abstinence should be encouraged, which it is...but they should also focus on safe sex as well. No matter how much you try to brainwash kids, if they want to have sex or do drugs, they're going to do it...these programs are supposed to educate kids about the risks and actions to play it safely in addition to not doing it at all. I vote for more safe sex being taught...abstinence teaches nothing, it just tells you not to do something.

~Zoo

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"I can't say I've got a lot of faith in abstinence-based programs. They've never worked in the past (eg in the pre-sex ed days) so I'm not sure why they'd work now."

I don't have a lot of faith in our justice system, either. We keep putting them in jail and they keep right on killing people. If it isn't foolproof, why try at all, right? Chaos FTW!! lol... not.

"Then, as now, sex education was funded in an attempt to stem the tide of Sexually Transmitted Diseases."

I rarely disagree with you Kupe, but I have to here. Sex education, less then/more now, is the sacred cow of faux-liberals in the name of "liberation", much the same way unfettered access to birth control is. By liberation, unfortunately, they mean freedom from traditional roles and any sort of morally conservative lifestyle.

Sex education is as much about fear as the worst kind of moral sermon about sinful sex. Instead of sex being the villain, though, it is the idea that you might *gasp* get pregnant and "ruin your life", or miss out on so much and end up living in a trailer park with a husband that beats you.

So, we end up with dead babies in dumpsters. "Liberation" in the Roe v. Wade era has become a denial of reality. Worse, we've promoted immoral sex through these programs to the point that many STDs that were declining are now surging again. It isn't the "but... make sure you use a condom" that sticks with kids, it's the "It's okay to have sex," part.

I have daily contact with an infectious disease clinic at a large hospital, and I can't help but see the results of these attitudes. I can say with absolutely no doubt in my mind that these programs have little chance of ever effecting STD transmission. The kids who don't transmit them probably wouldn't have anyway, and the ones that do are promoted to their behavior by teachers who urge them not to feel bad about it.

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I'd add that I really see no need for sex education in school at all. We have biology where kids can learn about reproduction and the transmission of disease. All we are doing is making something a big deal in the lives of kids who shouldn't see it as a big deal for some time to come. Worse, it is often used to argue against traditional values, much like some idiot teachers who use their classes on Darwinism to attack religion.

It's just imposed socialist child rearing as usual, denying parents the right to choose when to bring up the topic with their kids. Some kids aren't ready/aren't interested in 4th grade (when the basic indoctrination started in our school system). Did I have a choice? Nope. The almighty government told me when to drag my daughter into it.

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The worst thing a parent can do (IMO) is 'shelter' them and try to control every single thing.

Should we shelter our 10 year olds from the flavor of condoms? Do you want your 10 y/o girl tasting a condom some guy teaching at her schools gives her to taste?

Do the boys taste them as well? I imagin so in the world of gender equality. Gee thats promoting healthy sex...NOT!

Safe sex...lets teach kids how to have oral sex...whats next? Today we are licking condoms and spreading rubbers over wodden phalluses...where does this lead to?

Example: Hi mommy, I had a great day at school today. I got to taste a pretty yellow condom; here you want one

Oh, and I got to put one on a make believe pee pee too. I turn 11 next week mommy, I hope little tommy comes to my party. He said I could practice by putting a pretty yellow condom on his pee pee....WTF!!

This is pure craziness.

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Abstinence is okay to teach...but they also have to teach safe sex along with that. That's what gets me...you can tell someone to not do something all you want...but chances are, if they feel like it, they will do it and you should teach them the safe way to do that if that's what they choose. Abstinence only is a bad idea...that's all I'm going to say...it needs to be partnered with safe sex.

In respeonse to the above posting: For 20 years state-sponsored contraceptive sex ed has been in play. The result is an epidemic of STDs and STIs. There is no such thing as "Safe sex". It is a lie. For 5 yrs. we have known there is no scientific evidence that condoms prevent the transmission of most Sexually transmitted diseases -STDs Condoms don't provide universal protection against HIV, chlamydia, herpes, and human papilloma virus (HPV) which causes cervical cancer. The US dept. of Health and Human Services issued a report that was developed from the National Institute of Health, the food and drug adminisntration, the centers for disease Control and Prevention, anda the US Agency for International Development. Ever since this report was issued, when condom use is discussed, it is no longer medically accurate or legal to refer to sex as "safe' or 'protected".
So in school, which kid is really more vulnerable? The one whose taught to use contraceptives, including condoms or the one whose motivated to save sex until marriage?
Fact: No one has ever caought AIDS or any other STD from being abstinent
Also, teaching both is confusing to kids becasue they are contradictory messages.

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"Should we shelter our 10 year olds from the flavor of condoms? Do you want your 10 y/o girl tasting a condom some guy teaching at her schools gives her to taste?"

Walk up to a ten year old girl and offer her a condom to taste in the mall, it is a crime. Do it in school, it is a public service. Can you really wonder why sexual predators are so drawn to being teachers in America? Beyond the obvious contact with kids, our socialist society puts far, far too much parenting responsibility and trust in them, to the point that sexual abuse is part of the job description, apparently.

A teacher does that to my daughter, the teacher is in danger, as is anyone who came up with the policy. I see absolutely no difference between the mall and the school; if it is a sexual crime in the mall it is in school, too. Any valid act against the person in the mall is valid against the teacher.

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